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What aspect of Invasions do you dislike the most?


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#21
Tefka

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48 hour time limits. (Because somebody took 'OOC threads' already.) :(

 

These 48 hour time limits I've heard so much about are player-created rules, not the SWRP Staff Team's.

 

I just did a CTRL+F for '48' of the Invasion rule's page earlier today to make sure I wasn't crazy, since the evidence of such rules should be most obvious to the person who wrote them.

 

The only thing we have that is similar is the 72 hour "forfeit" rule if a faction doesn't show.

 

http://starwarsrp.ne...s/invasions-r16



#22
Jay Scott Clark

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Tefka

 

Ah. Well. Then if by 'aspect of Invasions' we're just going straight off Staff supplied rules? Then no. I have no complaints. The letter and spirit of the rules is fine. It's how people have chosen to use their agency that bugs me.

 

So yeah. Nothing then. :)



#23
Tefka

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Jay Scott Clark

 

You misunderstand me, I wasn't correcting you, I was expanding upon. I've seen that negotiated term enforced enough to have "48 hour" rules on my top 5 most disliked list, too.



#24
Coffeeccubus

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Don't kill me, but this is actually experience from another site I have when it comes to invasions considering I never was in an invasion on this site, and I had read threads of previous invasions and current ones, and I can sorta relate to some of them. Infact, throughout my roleplaying career, there are usually three majour problems when it comes to invasions in my opinion that I really dislike:

  1. When an invasion begins, and I have this idea of what I can do, there is already a heavy chunk of posts by the time I finish my side of the post over 30-40 minutes later. If not an hour later. Invasions can be tedious to post a reply to as you have to think and strategist majour things such as, how are you going to NOT get your character KIA'd, how will you reply to conferences in war, and how will you manage to develop your character and try to get them through it. Wars give you a 75% chance of having your character killed if you are NOT lucky, and strategize properly. Which brings me to #2
  2. You usually never get enough time to strategize. Even if you did, is it well worth it? There is a 50/50 chance your grand plan will go through. And if you can manage to pull a miracle in that said strategy, well, you're a freaking protagonist at this point. And I think the hardest part is, is that EVERYONE is their own individual protagonist. That's what's the issue is mostly I have with namely because I'm also on that key point where my #1 goal and strategy is namely to not have my main PC die because that's basically more important than the thing you're supposed to defend.
  3. When people just have the NERVE to attack YOU first. YOU out of ALL people gets to be the FIRST target. Isn't that great? Not only that everyone else before you gets a higher chance of survival, but you're basically karked if you you don't pull together a miracle of a strategy. If your really want your character to be majour film protagonist material, you GOTTA come up with a really flawless strategy that outmanuvers everyone. And that is difficult, considering that the other person has time to also prepare to counter back your Film Protagonist move with a Film Protagonist Plus Move. Yeuppp.

Maybe my most majour problem with Invasions in any case, is the fact that they all happen too quickly, and it can get incredibly frustrating. I don't want to have my character die, and have everyone else survive. I mean... it's pretty hard and challenge you know?


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#25
Braith Achlys

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I don't want to have my character die,

Nobody can kill your character except you. 

 

(Just a clarification)


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#26
Cecily Demici

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I don't like how little NPC armies take into account. I do, as a rational human being, understand that anyone could make up an infinite number of NPCs, but I also find it baffling how a very small faction with so few planets and by extension NPC people, could take on a massive faction like the OS. The military disparities would be baffling. It would be like Germany vs. Poland. Poland would just have no shot.

 

But I digress, I have no solutions for this problem and it's mainly just a minor pet peeve. :P


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#27
Connor Harrison

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The fact polls and suggestions and questions about Invasions come up FAR too frequently.

If it works, why are there so many debates over it? It's the one thing pulling this site apart it seems. We've lost writers over the drama it causes and friction in factions because of it.

#28
Tefka

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The fact polls and suggestions and questions about Invasions come up FAR too frequently. If it works, why are there so many debates over it? It's the one thing pulling this site apart it seems. We've lost writers over the drama it causes and friction in factions because of it.

 

You seriously just answered your own question. 



#29
Reverance

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The fact that the standard of invasions so far has been to allow the most aggressively biased members of the faction to negotiate not only initial terms, but also victory. And the expectation that this would work out well, that we would continually land fair and balanced terms. That we are surprised that this often requires third party involvement.

I dislike the obvious gaming of the terms, the technicalities used to win, and the blame game between factions that result from it.


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#30
Mantic Dorn

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Tefka

I belive that if invasions did not allow to burrow itself to deep into a cloud and thus helping to avoid cloud breaks much of the ooc stress around them would go away.

Let factions defend their borders and only allow invasions on non border planets if both factions agree it would be fun, for example if an infiltration story has been played out in beforehand or something such.

*picks up his shield and awaits rotten tomatoes*

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#31
Varas

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No tomatoes here. I actually like that idea and it makes sense IC. Mantic Dorn

 

Theoretically, borders would be more heavily defended than interior planets aside from the capital.



#32
Jamie Pyne

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An honest answer here because I finally slept after arguing with Alric Kuhn for like 2 hours last night:

 

Invasions have the potential to be fun, and, when I first joined were actually my favorite thing about this site. That being said, I feel like the majority of folks coming into CHAOS feel that invasions sound like a fantastic time and a lot of fun. That's not entirely untrue. I had my first invasion go really well despite my character nearly dying not even a month into creation. I made a really good friend with Darth Venefica (She better get her butt back here soon.) and all was well.

 

Now, the problem seems to be that the competitive side of invasions vastly overshadow the RP and writing aspect. The goal of invasions are obviously to win territory, but it is also to write with dozens of other people to make a really big, epic story. That part seems to be forgotten so often and ends up being an actual scheduling of "you fight this person. This person fights this person." etc. Then there are three to four objectives that everyone must dog pile on to and spam countless NPCs to win.

 

If that weren't convoluted enough, people then make up maps for these places instead of using a collective imagination and allowing the suspension of belief to overrule the laws of real world physics and space-time. That is the number one issue I see with invasions. Everyone wants to play scientist and professor to correct other people, whether it be their writing, actions, or reactions.

 

Please, everyone, understand that the general theme of star wars is completely (at this time) unrealistic, and by forcing advanced physics and science upon other writers is a losing prospect. Allow the general understanding of how things work in the world, then add on top how things seem to work in Star Wars, and everything should be fine. Just stop trying to correct everyone on the smallest of things.

 

Just go with it, who really cares if this is truly about story with a little possible bonus at the end?

 

If everyone wants to have a good time I'd suggest loosening the death grip everyone has on objectives and fighting this person or that person, attempting to correct everyone's actions for every minor mistake, and spend more time coordinating the actual "war" rather than negotiating terms for how the writing has to be performed.

 

Faction leaders should coordinate how they see the battle initiating, provide a solid prologue for the war rather than "we want to invade you because we want our color on that spot of the map."

 

That's my .02c


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#33
Gael bar Ammon

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I know people say they want to avoid catering, but throughout my studies of military science, I've been taught through and through that the defense will almost always have the advantage. Current invasion rules do not reflect that. When invasions occur, defenders should be given some advantage whether its time to form a blockade, IC request aid, or fortify critical positions.

I'd also like to see less wanton destruction. If you are going to take over a planet, you have to take it over - not destroy everything there. If you do that, then I see it possible for the defenders to lose the planet, but no way in hell should the attackers get it. Too often I see people simply destroy things because it's both easy to do and easy to recognize that the defenders lost that objective, but the attackers hardly won it either.

I want to see a more global campaign. One battle happening in the capital, another happening in another city, another in orbit. Invasions shouldn't be isolated to one location.

I'm sure I have more, but this is all I can muster via mobile.

#34
Tefka

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I agree with most, but General Sherman would argue against the "wanton destruction" part.

#35
Cecily Demici

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The invasion system here is an imperfect system for an impossibly scenario. There is a lot that could be done to make invasions more realistic, but the implementation of those suggestions would probably be difficult and piss a bunch of people off.

That being said, I do think Mantic Dorn makes a great point. It would make sense for opposing factions to have to penetrate a spehere of influence before attacking. How does that work logistically? Beats the pants off of me.

Gael bar Ammon also makes a great point, baring Poland, the defensive would generally have an advantage against the invaders. They are fighting on home turf, they know their surroundings better, would have greater at home defenses presumably built to deal with invasions. Now, this could just be something that FAs demand in negotiations, but it would be nicer to have it in stone to give the advantage to defenders.

All that in mind, I will now say that all of these changes will get someone somewhere on this site hot and bothered out of their fricking minds. If we pick at the system TOO much and it becomes nit picky, we might as well just scrap it and start from scratch.

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#36
Connor Harrison

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You seriously just answered your own question.


That was my point. How I'd answer it anyway!

#37
Malia Afredane

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I toyed with answering this for the better part of a day. Here's my thoughts.

 

Dislikes:

  • The Objectives. I find it rather odd that we start an invasion with fleets and armies at the ready on separate sides and drop a flag like it's a race. I find the story more compelling when one side actually has to use strategy in how are they going to deploy and assault an entrenched or native population. 
  • Victory for PVP decided by who won more duels. Takes the emphasis off the story and forces writers to win at all costs. 
  • The time limit. It stresses me the heck out. A short window of activity forces people to post rapidly and ignore the rest of the thread other than what is immediately impacting them which means unless someone tips them off, they miss things that would affect everyone in an area. I know that without a window of 2 weeks or so, that the thread might drag. Guess what, war drags. Campaigns are long, and the current invasions feel like a guerilla attack that only takes a few hours at most, not days or months.
  • People not working with the people on the other side. They write your opposition, they are not your enemy. Ideally you should work together to write a great story. This seems to rarely happen. 
  • People not working together on the same side. There is no strategy, there is no planning within a faction. It's every man for themselves. 
  • Your efforts don't really matter. Wrote my ass off on an invasion. I knew it would probably be a loss for the objective but I gave it my all, and tried to remain pleasant and congenial with the opposition. When it was all said and done, nothing we did on that objective mattered or was considered by the leaders at all because of an emphasis on PVP duels and an objective that one side forgot to cover.
  • The Vitriol. With a capital V. I don't really think I need to elaborate after Contruum/Bastion last year. 

I've done three since I joined, and I'm not likely to join another for the foreseeable future. My dislikes shouldn't necessarily mean that the concept is broken, only that these are the things that I experienced and didn't like. It comes down for me to a fundamental divide that many people here have also expressed: are we writers or are we players?

 

I tend to lean towards writer personally. There are certain places where I can accept competition and a propensity to win, like a fighting arena or a battle. However, none of that should supercede the story. That's where I start to lose interest and focus. If it is simply about winning, about conquering at the cost of character growth and development, when it becomes vicious and personal, then it's the internet at its worst. People have been made to feel unwelcome, unwanted and ridiculed for their actions IC as it spills over to OOC. Reform the rules, maybe it'll work better, but until the attitude around invasions changes, nothing else will. 

 

But as I said at the start, these are only my thoughts. Your mileage may vary. 


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#38
Soah

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A complete Sandbox would be fantastic, but it seems that whatever it boils down to, it is in some way pvp centric to determine wins -- and i say this because it is a forum where we roleplay with others.  It is collaborative writing; key emphasis on collaborative.

 

Even PVE objectives turn PVP to some point, because one must allow the defender the chance to defend. Eventually, another writer will come to try and stop and advance. How that fight turns out tends to sway victories.

 

I do think, however, there is one aspect that most don't realize is important - and this is what I dislike the most. 

 

Losing a battle or even sacrificing of the self could lead to victory as well as a bigger picture.

 

What if the loss of your battle allowed others to move forward to barge into the sith temple and destroy it?  Being a distraction serves a purpose, even if it results in your death or a loss in a battle. 

 

I don't think many people realize that; instead it is considered a "loss" against the faction.  Kinda depresses me.

 

 

 

 

To elaborate on some things spoken in the thread now.

 

All the current saturation of rules have evolved due to experiencing some form of issue that cropped up in a previous invasion or due to a method in the past used to  - with good intentions but bad initiative ( at the time it was believed to be the best route) - to try and make judgement easy.  

 

Take the 48 hour rule. 

 

This was implemented due to several stalled fights that caused drama because a two week invasion ended up with participants posting all of two to three times to each other,  which was not enough time to successfully be able to discern how that fight evolved. 

 

Typically, an rper talks to their partner to be respectful and allow a measure of reasonable response time.  

 

> Person A fights with person B

> Person A ends up waiting three days after several attempts to contact B to please respond to the post. 

> Person A decides to move on and find another opponent.

> Person B states that person A abandoned their fight, therefore person A technically withdrew from their duel and lost.

> Person A says no, they simply wanted to be able to rp...  

 

When scattered across several fights,  it ends up being an invasion with several stalled fights and no actual roleplay.  What does that leave?  Nothing but a draw and the draw goes to the defender.  

 

Good intentions are to show that one should show a sense of urgency to invasion posts, so the suggestion of implementing a 48 hour guideline for response window is given to allow an rper to move on without repercussions.

 

The intention was this:  Allow freedom for writers to move on and find other opponents if their initial partner, after discussing with them and poking them to post doesn't provide a timely reply that is suitable for both parties,  to move on and find someone else so they do not have to lose time in two weeks of fighting. 

 

As more and more invasions come to pass, this gets even more strict if terms of victory are "pvp matches"   

 

It ends up being a band-aid to try and fix things but that may or may not help out.

 

 

The same thing happened with the "active" members date cut off times. 

 

Take the Invasion of Manaan.

 

> A a Multi Major Faction writer who has been inactive in the Republic  ( but fully active in another different major faction that year.)  was demanded to be able to fight for the Republic side as an active member and not be counted as an ally ( Republic ally list was full)

 

The concern for  multi major faction members going around the ally rule brought another band-aid in subsequent invasion terms.-  Multi Major Faction Masters must be active in their respective defender and attacker faction as of the last thirty days to join this invasion.

 

Somehow this got twisted into it being ALL members must have been active in the past 30 days to be able to join the invasion, which was never the intention.

 

That's honestly what has happened with how invasion terms have become so saturated.  The desire to make it easy to judge,  easy to review, and quick to track based on previous concerns that had cropped up in the past.

 

Even Coruscant and the first Empress Teta,  without much rules to begin with,  was won merely because the case was made that several One Sith members managed to fell so many Jedi Masters and take over an area. (Either by pvp matches or turning them into the darkside)

 

I think that perhaps that is where the initial "Pvp for victories" idea as a quick way to point out the sway of victories.

 

The band-aid that was given to prevent that idea was "objective based"  victory conditions.

 

Well, that goes out the window when you have one faction with a massively large population of active writers compared to another.  Eagerness comes into play and what do you get?

 

Swarming.

 

All of a sudden it can seem very overwhelming to see 30 plus members of one faction post their initial post,  then wait 24 hours and post again while the other faction is still very much unprepared for how to keep track of where people are at. 

 

Unless you can go overboard and make a list of where everyone is exactly at, it is hard to keep up on who is doing what,  what they are attacking, are they setting up traps, who is fighting whom.

 

Wheaton's law is beaten on a dead horse, but people can get easily stressed by that sort of chaos.  Every Faction Owner has felt stressed in trying to find a fair and balanced way to ensure things run as smoothly as they can.

 

 

There doesn't seem to be a perfect solution, but I wish there were a way to make it easier without saturating things any further or imposing more rules.


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#39
Miss Blonde

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This is am opinion that I've come to agree with from a friend. Invasions went toxic the moment cloud breaking was introduced, because it was no longer about story. Say if a faction invades another faction it's no big deal it's just a single planet, so what? But now a single Invasion can take away thousands of posts and story of dominions in one blow thus removing a very large story telling aspect and making it purely ooc driven to win. And it completely destroys IC story.

"The sith have invaded Togaria! Oh no! If we lose this then we'll lose everything!"

"Um, but how will that happen? It certainly seems like this cluster of planets is more than capable of supporting each other."

"It's a key planet! It's made of dirt and mountains and has been firebombed to hell by an angsty Sith Lord!"

"Oookay?"

The Sith win the battle

"All is lost! The republic is doomed! We lost this one small planet causing dozens of others to collapse into neutral systems!"

"That sounds kind of cool, how did that happen?"

"Well you see we can't tell you because nobody knows. We'll probably just handwave some reason instead of having worlds fall one by one in a dramatic and epic plot line."

#40
Jairus Starvald

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Miss Blonde

 

I don't disagree with your point, but let's be real here for a moment.

 

The One Sith has been fighting the Republic for well over an OOC year. Every single time it looked like the Republic was finally dead, they surged back up again and started (re)claiming worlds.

 

If the cloudbreak mechanism did not exist... can you imagine how long it would take to show any amount of progress on the map?

 

It's already almost impossible to kill a Major Faction, unless they themselves throw in the towel. Without the cloudbreak mechanism stagnation would be worse than it already is, in my opinion.


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