Canon Ships vs Ship Guide

[Ayden Cater]

So, most of the ships in Star Wars will fall somewhere inside the realm of possibility as far as the guide goes. In fact, a lot of them would skate under.

Then there are the ones that blow the guide out of the water. Things like the LAAT or the Scythe-class battlecruiser.

Up until now, the general policy has been "if it's canon, it flies." I'd like an addendum to that policy that says "As long as it doesn't break the guide; if it's canon, it flies."

We've already established that the site respects canon, but only wheresofar as it does not stretch beyond a certain limit or break site rules. Things like lightsabers excreting magma, or barely-described technology being flushed out more fully in the factory. Things like superweapons are outright banned, unless consent is given by the RPJs.

This is no different.

If canon ships that break the guide are allowed, then the entire foundation of the starship area of the factory is shattered. The point of the guide is to keep everyone on a nominally level playing field. Leeway is given to allow for creative adjustments, but everything has a tie-in back to the guide so that we can say "X is equal to Y". For things like the Scythe-class, no such comparisons can be made. They grossly outclass anything bound by the limits of the guide could.

From there, it devolves into "who can find the most broken ships on the Wookie". All sense of fairness is thrown out the window under the guise of "canon". And since there's no oversight on how ships are made for a faction beyond a basic If-Then check, others are free to start using their own equally unbalanced ships.

It destroys creativity and diversity. It destroys any sense of fairness the guide creates.

I think we need the addendum that as long as a ship does not break the guide, if it's canon it flies.

 

[Arage Bao]

I agree.

 

[Domino]

Yep, and I'm personally disappointed that our writers would stoop to this for a perceived advantage in writing.

 

[Jacen Cavill]

I'm in agreement.

 

[Popo]

I want to vote on this, but seeing as I am currently involved in dealing with a large part of the issue at hand, I don't feel comfortable giving a "yay" or "nay" on this. I'll abstain for now.

 

[Ilias Nytrau]

I also agree.

 

[Adenn Gra'tua]

I argree.

 

[Ashin Varanin]

I thoroughly agree.
*returns to LOA*

 

[Asemir]

I'm not familiar with those ships, so, question(s):

Are these "broken" ships from the EU that takes place ~20 ABY? Or are they something even more recent, like 100 ABY? I ask because isn't Chaos set like 800 ABY or something? Are these ships even logically still existing? Can we make a blanket statement that says those classes are considered lost to the seas of time?

...

That might be the IC justification for "banning" these canon designs.

 

[Ayden Cater]

[member="Asemir Lor'kora"]

Selectively deleting things from the history books like that tends to make people upset. Plus, there are those individuals who would simply say "Well, my character knows this." By placing the argument within the context of board rules, we provide a frame of reference for a wide variety of cases, and gives us a definitive line to draw that, when someone tries to cross it, we can tell them 'no'.

 

[Asemir]

Fair enough. I'm fine with the addendum.

 

[Ashin Varanin]

I still support this since my apotheosis, but we need clear wording for an amendment. For example:

Use of Canon Starships

As canon has many inconsistencies, our balance of power and standards for what's acceptable have been derived from average canon ships. The use of ancient, overpowered starships, especially in large numbers, is not realistic to our time period. For our purposes, overpowered is defined as a canon ship with capabilities far beyond the board's current level of technology, as reflected in the factory guide, as well as being far beyond the average level of canon technology.

That's draft number one. Thoughts? Amendments? Alternatives?

 

[Asemir]

Define "far beyond".

 

[Ashin Varanin]

New draft.


Use of Canon Starships

As canon has many inconsistencies, our balance of power and standards for what's acceptable have been derived from average canon ships. The use of ancient, overpowered starships, especially in large numbers, is not realistic to our time period. Overpowered starships are canon ships which seriously outclass normal canon starships and Factory-approved starships.

 

[Asemir]

I was being half-serious, but I like this draft better.

 

[Ayden Cater]

As canon has many inconsistencies, one of the goals of the SWRP Ship Guide 2.0 is to help create consistency and a general sense of fair play. By being able to break down what it is that makes up a ship, and being able to compare two ships, allows even brand new writers to understand how things stack up against one another. Even ships that have had all their armaments traded around and tweaked will still be comparable to a normal ship. Since everything can be tied back to the same place, we can create balance.

Some people however wish to use older, canon ships. While this is not primarily an issue as most canon ships fall within the realm of possibility of the guide, problems do arise when more extreme examples of canon ships are used. For example, most carrier Light Star Destroyers on the board carry about 120 fighters. The Venator-class Star Destroyer from the Clone Wars era carries, at minimum, 420. Besides the obvious gulfs in hanger space aside, this creates a second problem. As more and more of these errant ships are found, they become used more and more. Since they lie above and beyond anything the guide would allow, they could only be challenged by other equally outrageous canon ships.

What this does is destroy creativity and diversity. Things soon boil down to "Who has the best canon ship?" and everything else is forgotten. And that's not something we want to endorse. By tying every ship back to the guide, we can say that one ship is equal to another. So a fight between them does not become a basic "I have more guns than you", but one of decisions. How to best utilize what you have in the face of what they have. It shifts the focus away from basic number crunch and more to a battle of wits and wills.

So, from this point on, any canon ship that falls beyond the scope of the SWRP Starship Guide 2.0 (or any possible later versions) can no longer be used.

 

[Popo]

I'd toss a caveat at the end saying ..." cannot be used unless refitted/redone/brought in line to Guide standards through the Factory."

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

Personally I would ban ALL canon warships being used, as by now they are 800 years in the past. I mean, the USS Missouri would be the most powerful ship in the world today by firepower, but is outdated in armour, weapons and technology to the point of being useless.

No one needs to use ancient canon ships, they really don’t. That’s what the factory is for. We have our very refined, very set standards in the Starship Guide. Looking at canon and then disallowing some ships is pointless, it’s an all or nothing gambit.

Personally I think only ships submitted through the factory should be allowed. Period. That’s the only way to make sure we don’t end up with absurdities like an 800 year old Scythe class outdoing a modern ship.

 

[Popo]

[member="Valeria Aetani"]
Actually, with a few updates and new systems, the USS Missouri would be fully up to date. The main guns are still extremely powerful and long range, the armor is still highly effective, and the technology isn't that hard to update.

That said, I can see your point entirely, though a broad spectrum ban may not work out. Hell, there are some designs out there that are canon and pretty balanced, all things considered.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

[member="Popo"]
Then have people submit canon stuff through the factory with a (canon ship) in the subject. If approved that ship is available to anyone.
It won’t add much load to the factory since canon ships require only a scan over the weapons, hanger and speed to make sure they’re in line, then they get stamped approved.
It will catch out the Venators and Scythes but mean people can use an X-Wing if they want.