Elite Ships

[Laira Darkhold]

This was suggested to be discussed more elsewhere and I have some thoughts on this that might surprise some people.

It looks to me that we're starting to discuss two separate issues:

1. If the armament ratings system would be effective compared to older rule sets.

2. General concerns about a how "Elite ships" affect gameplay

Perhaps we should start another thread for the "Elite ship" topic in general.

But overall, would people say that it would benefit the community to come up with standards or guidelines for making "elite ships"?

Here is the suggestion to continue the topic of Elite Ships.

[member="Cyrus Tregessar"] [member="Captain Larraq"]

The issue is that people are using dev threads to over-power their ships and break the balance.

If nothing else happens, that has to stop.

With a combined scale it would be simple to stop a ship going above a certain amount. If corvettes are set to operate between 6-8 for instance anyone trying for a 9 in other system will have to massively compromise in other areas.

I disagree with Valiens with reference to the Maladi. I don't think it was the submitter's intention to break their ship, and I am pretty sure he never intended them to be able to go toe to toe with Star Destroyers 1v1. I think other people that are using them or fighting them see all the guns and think they can do this. Its basically a point of 'Hey look at my cool new toy' and someone else (I don't know of any instances to have occurred yet) thinking that they are intended to redefine fleet warfare.

Seriously, even an Executor (24500 capitol guns, 1000 warhead launchers, 500 defense guns) can't hang with them pound for pound (Guns per Meters) if you look at it based on the guns and guns only. It needs to be looked at as a very powerful Cruiser (460 meters) that can hang with Heavy cruisers, and hurt a Light Star Destroyer 1v1, because no amount of Dev can realistically allow the SS Minnow to have enough guns to drop the USS Iowa.

Maybe they should be limited in production and more closely controlled who can use them ([member="Captain Larraq"] mentioned that someone somewhere allegedly tried to make the above claims of the Maladi beating out a Star Destroyer or something) if they are being used as super ships of ultimate pwnage. I love the fact that most things are capable with enough Development, but people like to look at numbers and go, 'that's a lot of guns, it must be better than anything with less guns' and that simply isn't true.

The Maladi is dead to rights with a pair of bomber squadrons or gunship squadrons opening up missile attacks to the hangar btw, for anyone who needs to know simple ways to beat this bad girl. Also you wanna know what beat the heroes of all of our books most consistently. Tactics. Grand Admiral Thrawn never lost and engagement in the books. Not really, he might retreat with minimal losses of his own at great cost to the New Republic, but those could only be considered Phyrric Victories for the New Republic at best, and at worst crushing losses without loss of territory.

Han Solo said it best:

"That's not what the Empire would have done, Commander. What the Empire would have done was build a super-colossal Yuuzhan Vong-killing battle machine. They would have called it the Nova Colossus or the Galaxy Destructor or the Nostril of Palpatine or something equally grandiose. They would have spent billions of credits, employed thousands of contractors and subcontractors, and equipped it with the latest in death-dealing technology. And you know what would have happened? It wouldn't have worked. They'd forget to bolt down a metal plate over an access hatch leading to the main reactors, or some other mistake, and a hotshot enemy pilot would drop a bomb down there and blow the whole thing up. Now that's what the Empire would have done."
―Han Solo, to Vana Dorja

That looks to be exactly what the One Sith have done, created the best (Super small) ship-killing battle machine (They called it the Maladi, Wyyrlok, and Immortal), and contracted Titan Industries. What kills all of these. Tactics. Superior Tactics led Reichsmarshal Erwin Rommel to pummel the Allies in WWII. He had benefits (The Tiger was a beast in the desert) but in the end his Tactics are what won, because victory is knowing how to utilize your own weakness as strengths, being able to judge your enemy and react to moves they haven't even made. He isn't known for purchasing the best equipment money could buy and going out and laying the P'wn Hammer 2000 on his enemies, he was known for being smarter than them. No amount of technology stands up against a determined enemy with superior tactics.

 

[Camellia Swift]

[member="Draco Vereen"]

Tacticssssssssssssssssssssss

*My stance on tactics and guns is known*

Also that Han Solo quote. THat made me laugh so much, that was a good choice.

^w^

 

[Laira Darkhold]

[member="Camellia Swift"]
Not to me, but I am sure they are known somewhat, by someone, somewhere.

 

[Cyrus Tregessar]

A weapon called a torpedo wants to have a chat with you about the Minnow vs. Iowa. Of course what a torpedo does to a naval ship we would a near-superweapon.

Anyway I agree with most the key points here. Also worth noting that the MaladI does have a critical flaw highlighted in its submission, the trick is being able to properly write bullseyeing the womp rat.

 

[Camellia Swift]

[member="Draco Vereen"]

Technically its known in regards to the other topic. You need listed guns to construct tactics.

Since the Maladi is on the mind, shield penetrating missile (likely with ECM tags), fired right at that hanger bay you brought up, would give some good damage. Heavy Ion Cannon Batteries would be a good choice to throw at the shields, and fighter attacks are highly effective. It doesn't have many anti-missile or anti-fighter defenses so a swift bomber or a squadron with decent escorts could carry missiles as mentioned to hit it. And if the shields were brought down a mass driver near the reactor could set it off.

Plus you might not even have to get all the way through the shields if its a rickety and fragile reactor and hull as it claims. Hit it with a heavy enough Hypervelocity cannon and the impact might jostle the wrong thing. Shake things up * wink * laugh * cough *

Although personally this would gut several of my heavy cruisers. That's part of the company theme I've given the Rendili Brand though. Thick Hull over shields, and Turbolasers over Ion Cannons. . . . . which might be corrected with a design if one ever fell afoul to a Maladi. Buuuuuuuut since Rendili is Sith right now that hopefully wouldn't happen.

 

[Laira Darkhold]

That weapon known as torpedo (What we would consider Capitol ship grade missiles) were carried aboard 49 bombers that still required lucky strikes to sink the Arizona. And since then Battleships have become more resilient to those attacks.
(Also the Iowa carried 20 Kiloton yield Nuclear Shells near the end of its commission speaking of Super Weapons).
[member="Cyrus Tregessar"]

Lets not turn this into how to kill the Sith Ships. Lets keep this on whether or not to restrict/classify Elite Ships and how to do so please. I would prefer this not to turn into the hate rally that the Undying Discussion became.
[member="Camellia Swift"]

 

[Camellia Swift]

[member="Draco Vereen"]

Right sorry. . . .technically my ships are Sith ships too though. . . .don't carry many fighters. . . I haven't designed a carrier. . .

Ok but yes in all seriousness, elite ships ought to feel some restrictions too, there is going to be some point at a certain size a ship can only get so good. Personally I would cap them at 2, at most 3, times the average with a good enough thread. After all you can only have so many reactors on a ship, and on average a reactor takes about 1/3-2/3 of a ship if you look at canon examples. So there is a cap to how powerful a ship's shields, engines, and weapons can be.

To make it better past a "regular" cap (using standard reactors and parts) you'd probably have to design enhanced reactors, engines, and shield generators to get more out of things (which then only work on ships that size with enough posts). Even then those would have a limit.

So again I'd stipulate a 2x or 3x limit on elite ships given enough posts?

 

[Captain Larraq]

Personally, I'm not a fan of the Maladi's weakness. Most of the time, you need to be fairly close to your target if you want to land a successful missile hit. Yet the ship's sub basically turns that into a suicide run as the ship's detonation is violent enough to one-shot almost anything within range of itself.

All things considered, the ship is also the most violent fire-ship on the board. For example... I have a minelaying Corvette that hauls a laaaaaarge number of mines. If you nail the mine bay, the ship goes boom. The difference between the two is that the Maladi specifically states that it can completely destroy another Maladi with its detonation.

And since it's got 3x the shields of a normal ship of its size... that kinda implies it could/should also blow up whatever killed it or whatever it decided to ram into.



Now... elite ships as a whole and as a concept... I don't have an issue with them. So long as each one is piloted by a PC. I've always seen them as an appropriate balancing point for a writer that wants to captain a single ship, but has to participate in a fleeting thread where there are two primary admirals duking it out... As it helps said Captain be special and have an impact.


Using Elite Ships as standard, rank and file units? That's where you run into problems.

 

[Darth Metus]

What I've seen is this.

Elite Ships take a metric kark ton of posts, planning, 32nd effort. They're two hairs from being flagship level.

When they are submitted, the firepower is immense but there are also noticable trade offs. Hangars are axed, etc etc.

And the production is seldom mass (I'm pretty sure).

So, since the 2.0 guide touched upon the subject of ships over 2,000 meters, maybe an amendment to our current guidelines can touch on the subject of Elite Ships? Something that takes the precedents and trends already in place and establishes them as the parameters for future subs?

Because, let's face it, if one could pull it off, what faction wouldn't want an elite ship right?

 

[Laira Darkhold]

[member="Captain Larraq"] that isn't a bad idea, but then you run into the problem of a group with a lot of active writers still doing the whole fleet of Elite Ships. Were do we make the cut off and how awesome a ship can be by comparison to the rank and file. Used to the more restricted the ship became, the more unique systems or special things you could put on it. Triple Strength shields used to count as one of these, Meaning it would be the only one aboard mass produced ships smaller than a star destroyer.

That kind of restriction would mean at long range a ship without advanced targeting computers isn't going to as effective, which isn't so bad. Basically we can go around and around about this, but the easiest fixes are

1. Elite Ships are PC Captained (Not necessarily Unique)
2. Bring back the Guideline on Advanced Systems (1 for ships under 1500 meters, 2 for above, 3 for Flagships, +1 For Support Ships, +1 For Minor Production, +2 for Restricted, +3 for Unique)
3. Long Range Guns need some form of advanced targeting equipment to be effective at long range otherwise while they still make the distance, chances of hitting are decreased
4. Realize no matter how many guns/shields/armor is on a ship, it is not capable of slugging it out with ships significantly bigger (2 or more classes up)
5. Finally realize this is a game and isn't meant to be stressful. If you are stressing out about it, its time to take a break and calm down.

Also note: Three times stronger shields means about the same as a Star Destroy condensed onto a Frigate. This sets a really nasty precedent for Triple strength shields being put on things like a Star Destroyer (Or Flagship) and making them effectively indestructible in standard 10km fleet engagements. A 450 meter frigate having shields at 4800 using SBD (Wookiee) translates to Star Destroyers having almost 16000 SBD.

[member="Isley Verd"] That is the point, to stop or at least slow the perpetual arms race in the factory. Old ships from the early days that were complained about back then aren't considered up to par anymore. Every Faction wants elite ships to counter the current ones going through, and right now, there are several in mass production, but you are correct, most are limited production.

 

[Alric Kuhn]

Okay. Having followed along and read all of this as well as the comments, I'm going to drop two quick lines, one as Factory Admin and one as the submitter of the Maladi.

The First; The Factory is currently looking into the problem of elite ships and their effects on fleeting, It is being discussed among the FJ's and we're seeing if something can be done that's fair to new submitters as well as old submissions.

Second; The Maladi will soon see some changes. I admittedly went overboard in it's creation due to the accumulative work that went into the ship, however I realize my mistake in that. Changes should be coming as soon as i find a balance I am happy with.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

I’ll add two things here, as someone who’s killed two Immortals, I appreciate how that ship at least had a gigantic flaw in it which made its sheer firepower, in the end, pretty useless.

• Elite ships should be elite – they should be one per battle. You put a lot of effort into them, great! Make them limited production so you have one a battle. That adds worth to them.
• Giving ships weaknesses which involve luck or specific targeting never plays out in practice because that’s not how RPs work. Every one of us who fleets is the Admiral at the top of their game who never makes intentional errors. If you’re relying on firing a shot into a tiny area it’s just never going to happen in a fleeting battle.

 

[Camellia Swift]

[member="Valiens Nantaris"]

Unless your Luke Skywalker

 

[Cyrus Tregessar]

A note on canon ship toughness, remember that the few depictions of capital ships duking it out have a corvette surviving (and being run down by, interestingly) an ISD. Then in ROJ you have a Nebulon B going broadside to broadside with another ISD... and surviving.

Which takes us back to the old debate about toughness vs. Firepower and such.

As for Elite ships, requiring them to be submitted with that extra note and consideration and not overusing them in battle should be an easy fix.

Corollary to that, I tend to agree with the good captain that more leeway should be given in the factory to small, unique, independent, heavily-devved ships that are unlikely to be seen in fleet engagements. The Elite tag could be used to allow for that as well.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

[member="Valiens Nantaris"]

Unless your Luke Skywalker

But every writer here thinks they are the hero of the story, and as such should be the amazing hero with the one in a million shot.

 

[Camellia Swift]

[member="Valiens Nantaris"]

So everyone is Luke Skywalker?

 

[Laira Darkhold]

We also see an untouched Providence-class get mauled by one Venator-class and basically crippled without stopping the Venator (Opening scene of ROS). I believe it was the Guarlara that maimed the Invisible Hand. But I digress since firepower vs output is exactly as you say, a circular discussion. In the X-Wing novels 11 X-wings and 10 Uglies downed a Victory-class in one volley, so as you say, meh cannon references vary heavily.
[member="Cyrus Tregessar"]

[member="Camellia Swift"] [member="Valiens Nantaris"]
Once everyone is Luke Skywalker no one will be... Maybe that's what the Forceless Future Goons are talking about.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

[member="Camellia Swift"]
Everyone is the hero of their own story. Thus, every player character (with exceptions which only prove the rule) are incredibly strong, fast, skilled etc. Not a criticism, so much as a fact we must live with.