Fantasy/Sci-fi Armies and You

[Placeholder 0133]

I would have put a poll here, but they tend to keep people from actually saying what they think.

We all know how important military organizations are in our war-torn fantasy worlds. They tend to be a big source of the drama going on in each particular setting, and they're all quite varied. From the semi-realistic Imperial Military, to the disorganized, somewhat tribal army of the first Horde in Warcraft. They're all fine and dandy, but I have a personal issue with these armies, and many others.

They don't act like an actual military.

In a fantasy setting such as Warcraft, with the Orcs and their disparate allies working together as separate entities, I can easily shrug off the lack of discipline, protocol, etc. However, when looking at, say, the Republic Military in TOR, I find myself cringing with every other line.

When I see guns, I assume modern, and when soldiers act like civilians with guns in these settings, it irks me. It's a personal thing, of course, and I know the various militaries around the world are certainly not mirror images of one another. I compare this sort of thing to the American military, because that's what I know.

Going on from this line of thought, I try to make my soldier characters act as realistic as possible. Sometimes I find myself looking up terms for things I don't understand to better portray a realistic soldier within the Star Wars universe.

So I'm curious, does anyone else do this sort of thing? Does is bother you when our fantasy armies act differently from what comes to mind when you think military? Does it ruin your immersion when a military character your RPing with doesn't act well to what you perceive as the part? Do other people go out of their way to be more accurate to the traditional soldier, or does it not matter?

Give me your answers!

 

[Au'Rus Rhaeyns]

I am a military history nut. And when it comes to fantasy armies there are usually two aspects to consider: aesthetic and function. Some fantasy armies derive their "militarism" purely from aesthetic i.e. they use codenames, rank titles, jargon and this is pretty much how they function in the setting. There are others who are designed to function like an army. There are squadrons and teams with set functions and roles and the fantasticalness of the setting is incorporated to be in synergy with this.

On a side note if you want read a fantasy that incorporates military function and fantasticalness I highly recommend: The Black Company.

It follows the exploits of a mercenary group and the style of narrative is entirely focused on the concept of squads, squad management and team roles. Not to mention they get roped into working for the "bad guys" of the setting.

Give it a look. I thoroughly enjoyed it.

 

[Jsc]

Star Wars is a horrible choice for Military Realism. Well... Realism in general, but yeah. Not to mention many of the writers we have on this site are teens or folks with absolutely 'zero' knowledge about how a real military works. Let alone a Space Military with laser guns. So... I hate to say that you're barking up the wrong tree? But you're barking up the really, really wrong tree. Star Wars has very little "realism" going along with it. You just kind of have to go with the flow of, " white plastic soldiers with laser guns run the universe". ...Thing....

As for adding realism? No, yeah. Go for it. People love that stuff.

 

[Au'Rus Rhaeyns]

Heh, always thought it'd be neat to have a Outer Heaven kinda military outfit, i.e. Soldiers Without Borders and play some proper military campaigns full of covert ops, battlefield infiltration, underworld scheming and all the while getting caught between two bigger factions.

But, lord know I already have too many ideas on my plate

[member="Jay Scott Clark"] [member="Rook"]

 

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@Au'Rus Rhaeyns - That's true. I vastly enjoy the latter style, the former just tends to give me a headache, though there are some exceptions.

I'll have to check that book series out. I went to Barnes and Nobles the other day, and noticed I own just about every Star Wars book on the shelf. It was mortifying. I need new material to read on my trips.

[member="Jay Scott Clark"] - There is some sense of realism in the EU. The movies? Not so much. I fell in love with the idea of NFUs reading the Republic Commando novels when I was a bit younger. It didn't have realism so much as it had the feel of it. Like they were trying at the least. Of course, I understand not everyone is going to be about that sort of thing. I grew up in the Army and it's where I'm headed in a few months, so sometimes I expect things from people that just...isn't there.

Tried the Outer Heaven thing once. It was fun, but getting people to be active for that sort of thing can be a drag when everyone wants to be a Jedi.

 

[Jsc]

[member="Au'Rus Rhaeyns"]

That's pretty much what I decided to do with my main, Karen Roberts. Running an NPC military start-up organization is perfect for her and me. Go where ever, when ever, one-woman army gigs all day long, and call in artillery strikes for kicks-n-giggles. I'll never join a Jedi Order again.

[member="Rook"]

Expectations. Yeah. They get you every time. RP on the internet has more to do with sex and unicorns than telling a real meaty story. That said? If you find a good writing partner? Somebody who can actually make that dream of good military RP a reality? Dude. Keep them close to your heart. That's straight golden.

 

[Darth Hauntruss]

[member="Jay Scott Clark"]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IXTNfxgxEI

 

[Jsc]

[member="Darth Hauntruss"]

"Loyalty Till The End" - The Boss

In Memory Of A Patriot

Who Saved The World

 

[Beowoof]

I generally write my armies less concentrated and just smarter overall. Modern warfare involves fewer and fewer direct engagements as time goes on. I believe there were approximately one military person per five square kilometers and one combatant killed for every one thousand rounds fired during the peak of the insurgent war in Afghanistan. The massive armies seen in World War One through to the Korean War are no longer considered plausible to maintain, and are actually inefficient. Air superiority and guerrilla warfare are generally the criteria for dominating an enemy now.

Star Wars is largely identical to World War Two in strategies for the prequels, and is something tactically akin to the Vietnam war in the original trilogy. I assume things have progressed beyond that--though you never know what might degrade over time. Basically, I try to write with a modern practicality. Infantry lines are no longer any good for open-field tactics. Insurgency coupled with air strikes and a little supporting artillery is the new norm.

In the end, I find total warfare and guerrilla warfare to be the dominant formats for Star Wars in general. I find the fantasy-style 'hordes' to be unrealistic in any situation. Even the Celtic resistance against the Romans and the American resistance against the British were organized to a fair extent despite their ragtag assemblage.

Ask Boudica how well a horde strategy worked versus an extremely inferior force.

 

[Au'Rus Rhaeyns]

Indeed, the Wars part in SW is heavily modelled off of WWII 'Dogfight', large force campaign mentality. Because frankly its more romantic and sexy than the indirect and more ruthlessly procedural modern warfare mentality.

 

[Rusty]

The main thing everybody gets wrong across the whole of time in space is that they all assume soldiers are these stoic badass killing machines whose sole emotions are unstoppable rage and guilty angst. There's a reason we all hate war movies, and it's not just because of that fucking salute at the end of every damn one of them.

You know what really happens when you take a bunch of 18, 19, and 20 year olds, give them guns and put a few older guys that were basically them a decade ago in charge?

You get some of the goofiest people you will ever meet.

Seriously.

When you're out in the field for the first time and your section chief comes walking into the TOC wearing nothing but his boots and helmet, you learn real quick just how profoundly odd everyone is.

There's a time to buckle down and get serious, but the rest of the time, you're just trying not to die from boredom before it's time to knock off for the day so you can go get hammered and spend way too much money on strippers.

 

[Kenrath]

The main thing everybody gets wrong across the whole of time in space is that they all assume soldiers are these stoic badass killing machines whose sole emotions are unstoppable rage and guilty angst. There's a reason we all hate war movies, and it's not just because of that karking salute at the end of every damn one of them.

You know what really happens when you take a bunch of 18, 19, and 20 year olds, give them guns and put a few older guys that were basically them a decade ago in charge?

You get some of the goofiest people you will ever meet.

Seriously.

When you're out in the field for the first time and your section chief comes walking into the TOC wearing nothing but his boots and helmet, you learn real quick just how profoundly odd everyone is.

There's a time to buckle down and get serious, but the rest of the time, you're just trying not to die from boredom before it's time to knock off for the day so you can go get hammered and spend way too much money on strippers.

OMG this.....exactly this and nothing else. I mean in my case I was 20 and replace Section Chief with Captain and you pretty much have my first combat experience minus the getting hammered and strippers.

 

[Rusty]

You haven't lived until you've watched the BN CSM get shit faced and try to convince a stripper to let him fist her.

 

[Fabula Caromed]

Star Wars is a horrible choice for Military Realism. Well... Realism in general,

This pretty much hits the space-nail on the laser-head. The most common form of travel in the galaxy moves several hundred to several thousand times the speed of light, the mechanics of lightsabers are hilarious, and anyone within several yards of a blaster shot should be hospitalized for horrific burns, to say nothing of any poor sot unlucky enough to get hit.

The main protagonists are telepathic, telekinetic, clairvoyant psychic wizards. Perfectly-formed clones with no significant biological or mental variation from the original can be grown in a few years. The vast majority of alien species are structurally identical to humans - upright bipedal body with two arms, two eyes, and lungs that process an oxygen mixture similar to the one found on Earth. Each planet seems to involve about one biome: swam, desert, glacier, city, jungle, clouds...

Suffice it to say military realism is probably not the first thing on the writers' minds. XD

 

[Ashin Varanin]

(All hail Traviss.)

 

[Aran Finn]

Star Wars is terrible for military realism, as stated before. The Clone Wars seemed to be fought with the same level of tactics as the Chinese during the Korean War.

As a currently serving member, some of the portrayals of the military on the board make me fly into what we call in the Australian Army "servie rage", where a soldier loses his s*** at civilians being civilians. Generally, the attitude of RP soldiering I've seen has been distinctly civilians and CoD focused, with the organisation devoid of any real understanding.

But I understand that. If you're not in the military or haven't ever been, you just don't know. And that's okay.

 

[Ashin Varanin]

In all seriousness, though, I've got enough veterans in my family and on my wife's side to know that I'm totally incapable of writing the military mindset accurately and respectfully for any length of time. I've had some success with Napoleons and lone warriors and Han Solos, but that's about it. For a while, I sat down and read a ton of David Drake and Terminal Lance, and came out of it convinced that I'd made the right call. I still enjoy messing around with tactics and such, and I've read enough David Weber and Jack Campbell to spaceoperafleet the crap out of all and sundry, but when it comes to the real deal, these days I take a long step back and stay there. And props to those who can do it well.

If you're not in the military or haven't ever been, you just don't know. And that's okay.

^me

 

[Darth Carnifex]

I write the big bad who commands armies to go butcher things, but I leave the soldiering to the soldiers.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

As a military historian and general strategy guy I draw inspirations from many things both Earth and Star Wars for what I write.

Naval wise I look back to the era of Jutland and Midway fused together. An era with a similar balancing act between small and large ships. Thus, whenever I fleet I am more emulating that then Star Wars' mess of a military canon.

For armies, I agree that small forces are the way to go. Large armies make even less sense when orbital bombardments can reduce a city to dust. The white armour of the stormtroopers and the death charge tactics of the Clone Wars make me wince. Not only that, but the blaster as a weapon is much less accurate, slower firing and easier to trace than a projectile rifle. Only armour penetration explains why anyone would use a blaster...and that it looks cool.

Having said that, I don't push things too far (relatively!) when it comes to realism. As Fabs said, looking for realism in this setting is a vain hope.

 

[Ellie Mors]

I don't think I've ever really attempted to write a militaristic character. I'm usually doing my own thing - which is totally realistic in this sort of a setting, you don't need a squad of force users - and kind of evade getting into contact with soldiers. The only soldiers I have actually came into contact with were generally characters who only joined into the military during the war between the OS and the GR, which means they were pretty ill-trained usually.