Fleeting and Force Powers

[Beowoof]

I'm going to be forthright here: I do not like Force powers that affect fleeting engagements.

Recently I have been in two fleet skirmishes (Prakith and now Geonosis) that involved some pretty heavy and fleet-enveloping uses of Force powers that are meant to affect the ship crews--or even the ships themselves, in one case. And while I am certainly no anti-Jedi type, I don't believe they should be allowed to have a significant effect (if any at all) in a fleet engagement.

It's hard enough to glance through ship stats and keep an eye on the positioning/movement/attacks posted by your opponent. But then to go and add an extra, utterly unpredictable layer to fleet-wide tactical combat really hurts the spirit of the game, in my opinion. I shouldn't have to be worried about Jedi mind tricks here.

Unfortunately, I did indeed get reported for countering a Force ability with non-Force RP, which seemed sound in my mind but apparently is not considered valid. As this seems like an unfair advantage against the majority of fleeters (being NFU characters) and just too much of a stretch for my suspension of disbelief, I was extremely reluctant to accept the affects doled out.

I have also experienced the use of a similar Force power at the Prakith battle, where Sith attempted to project illusions and 'voices' into the minds of the Republic crews. Again, I was very reluctant to accept this and the Republic fleet was only lucky that the Sith Forcies made some tactical errors in their use of said projections.

That being said (and all frustrations aside), I'd like to get an idea of how one could counter such things. It was suggested to me that I dispatch a boarding party--but I'm fairly certain that would be nothing but a joke to be swept aside by more Force handwaving. I honestly don't know how one is supposed to deal with such things.

This is the largest reason I sincerely feel like Force powers have no place (at least, not significantly) in fleeting RP. And a lot of fleeters enjoy the space battles so much because they don't have to worry about the one-upping that typically goes with Jedi/Sith PVP. I would personally like to remove Force play entirely from fleeting, but what are the opinions on this? Should it be an illegal move, or is there a compromise that won't debilitate the NFUs and spoil the fun for the rest of us?

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

[member="Beowoof"]
Whether we like it or not, battle meditation is a big part of Star Wars. From the Zahn books, to KOTOR, it’s a power of great importance.

Having said that, it’s all how the opponent writes it. At Prakith it was used with shockingly poor skill by the Sith, allowing me to figure out a way to counter it.
Like it or not, Star Wars ultimately comes down to Force Gods, and you can only counter them by getting some yourself.

 

[Gir Quee]

Incidents similar to these seem to be a reoccurring problem on the board.

In my experience, people who primarily play Force-users and those of us who are "fleeters" come to a thread with different expectations about how the Force and grand-scale battles interact.

No-one wants their efforts to be ignored, and no-one wants to be ridiculously over-powered by a foe through technology, tactics, or Force powers.

It'd be nice to see if we could somehow hammer some basic expectations with our Force-user bretheren regarding the use of battle mediatation, illusions, sithspawn, etc on the battlefield.

 

[Taeli Raaf]

[member="Beowoof"]

As I was present at Prakith, and sighed heavily about how the Sith used the illusions as it was a waste in my opinion, the best way to counter illusions is to send out mass detection or a dummy torpedo at them. As for Battle Meditation, it all depends on how strong the user is.

I haven't been following Geonosis much so I don't know what is going on there, but various degrees of effects could be achieved, from just a sense of unease to full blown panic. The only way I can think of handling this would be having someone on your side use Battle Meditation as well as that will neutralize, and even increase your effectiveness if they are better at it than your opponent, or sending a boarding party to the ship where the person using it is.

Concentration is everything for those techniques though, so disrupting that will also eliminate the effects

 

[Beowoof]

[member="Darth Arcanix"]

The person I was opposing at Geonosis was both commanding his fleet maneuvers and using Battle Meditation to put fear into my crew simultaneously. You brought up concentration. How does this line up?

 

[Taeli Raaf]

[member="Beowoof"]

It's possible to do so because they can be influencing and bolstering their allies and forces while depleting yours, but it takes a great deal of mastery in the technique and usually requires a boost like a meditation chair or meditation sphere to focus the Force energies and cut outside interference from disrupting his technique. He wouldn't be able to shout out orders easily, if at all, but he could influence his commanders to do what he wished through the technique.

Again, haven't been following Geonosis, so I don't how it was phrased, but I'm guessing that isn't exactly how it was done there?

 

[Gir Quee]

[member="Beowoof"], from my understanding, the basic battle meditation feat simultaneously coordinates one's fleet better, improves your soldier's morale, and demoralizes one's enemy.

In other words, that's all one action, rather than separate actions.

I think that given how many people these actions affect, I'd rather see it used to do these as separate powers for balance issues, but that's what we have to work with canonically.

It almost makes me want to just use droids for a crew.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

Battle Meditation does (or should) have some serious downsides. For one, it can’t be used continually, for another it should be impossible to use it and act in a normal capacity (give orders etc).

I don’t know about the Geonosis battle, except the cluster-bomb of reports it’s producing, so I can’t comment there.

At Prakith the Sith threw their advantage away through poor use of the power. I’m sure they won’t make that mistake again.

 

[Ellie Mors]

That being said (and all frustrations aside), I'd like to get an idea of how one could counter such things. It was suggested to me that I dispatch a boarding party--but I'm fairly certain that would be nothing but a joke to be swept aside by more Force handwaving. I honestly don't know how one is supposed to deal with such things.

I'm not being sarcastic when I say have a strong resolve. Battle meditation seeks out a way to exploit your will to continue, teras kasi would be another excellent method of bypassing battle meditation.

Or you can be trained by someone proficient in battle meditation insofar as to what it does, how it works, and undergo the same training they, themselves, underwent - just without the use of the force. Fortification of your mind is your friend, though it is always best to have one such practitioner on your own side of the battle.

Battle meditation is made for fleeting and large battles, however, so I don't see the use of it changing when that is its primary purpose.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_meditation

 

[Cyrus Tregessar]

Bringing your own force user is always a valid choice, of course. Otherwise they get all boarding-happy.

Alternatively, write out that you're disadvantaged and try and win anyway. Would make for an interesting story to have your character and the fleet possibly push through and manage to squeeze out a victory at high cost or something.

It is worth noting that in canon it's shown to be very difficult to learn and master, but the perhaps over-abundance of maser-level force powers on the board is really a different debate. Bear in mind, the Imperial Fleet at Endor supposedly had Battle Meditation going for it and the Rebels still sunk the Executor and blew up the Death Star and such.

As a general rule, if it ain't like a force storm which is just supposed to rip ships apart without any defense, I'd just as soon write through it. The concentration aspect is worth mentioning, of course. Perhaps a volley of HVC rounds at the target ship would throw off ones train of thought, no? Basically I don't see it as anything but another weapon, and as shown by [member="Valiens Nantaris"] at Manaan, that's definitely a surmountable obstacle.

 

[Veino Garn]

I see FUs in space as Force multipliers more than the most important part of a space battle. Yes, there was a pun there and I had to take it.

 

[Captain Larraq]

At Dromund Kaas, Larraq countered hostile Battle Meditation by giving a well spoken speech to his fleet to restore morale. At the same time, Larraq's fleet was under attack by a force user (the same one doing the battle meditation) possessing random members of the crew, including grabbing an NPC from the bridge and attempting to assassinate the commander of the fleet (Larraq). Said possessed Mandalorian was accused of being Dar'manda in the speech and was publicly executed to help restore order.

And it worked. It made a fun little quip in the story and did not hugely offset the fleeting.


Alternatively, there is another method of dealing with Force Users interfering with your naval combat.

The ACS Mircin, thanks to its anti-Force User prison cells, produces a 12,000 meter bubble of "Can't touch me" around itself. While this would greatly limit the formations and tactics of any fleet that attempts to utilize this defensive feature to protect themselves in engagements against Jedi or Sith... the comfort of knowing that you can engaging in ship to ship combat without pesky space wizards messing things up is more than compensation enough.


As elegant weapon for a more civilized time.

 

[Beowoof]

[member="Captain Larraq"]

I attempted to counter battle meditation with a fleet-wide chorus of patriotic music (which had been set up prior to the other player even mentioning battle meditation) to keep everyone's spirits up... and was promptly reported and told to change my post and have my crew act all distraught from it.

I thought I made a reasonable play, but apparently there is no defense. :/

 

[Fatty]

[member="Captain Larraq"] lol sorry about that. I'm never consistent with my force abilities at master levels.

Someone should really see if an OOC pact can be made to curb over zealous use of the force.

[member="Beowoof"] They seriously reported you for playing music? Sure you can feel distraught in the middle of a BATTLE, but that doesn't mean your morale is shot to everything. You can be influenced, but you shouldn't be dominated.

 

[Captain Larraq]

[member="Captain Larraq"]

I attempted to counter battle meditation with a fleet-wide chorus of patriotic music (which had been set up prior to the other player even mentioning battle meditation) to keep everyone's spirits up... and was promptly reported and told to change my post and have my crew act all distraught from it.

I thought I made a reasonable play, but apparently there is no defense. :/

It's less about countering the actions of the other writer and more about taking a hit and recovering from it.

Battle Meditation is not an "I Win" button. There is no such thing on this forum and if anyone attempts as much against you, (and tries to force you into losing because of their one-post use of an abusive submission or ability) I encourage you to report them for it.

I have also experienced the use of a similar Force power at the Prakith battle, where Sith attempted to project illusions and 'voices' into the minds of the Republic crews. Again, I was very reluctant to accept this and the Republic fleet was only lucky that the Sith Forcies made some tactical errors in their use of said projections.

Personally, I loath this sort of behavior. I do not take my spaceships and obliterate a set of Sith and Jedi that are dueling each other because I feel it is unfair and has no IC or OOC justification that would make it fair. Nor is it at all conductive to a friendly writing environment. Doing the opposite (waving force powers at a set of dueling fleeters) is about as bad, but few people see it as such. It's for that reason that I have a handful of tactics, fleet compositions, items and resources, and other junk lined up to prevent that sort of nonsense.


For you though... I have a simple suggestion.

Borrow the concept of an Astropathic Choir from Warhammer 40k. Create a submission for a choir of 5-12 medium level NPC Jedi that are all trained in the art of battle meditation. Not a one of them is a master of the art, nor are they close to it. But together, their ability is great enough to at least prevent the hostile effects of an enemy Force User's Battle Meditation from effecting your ships and crews...


It's always been an amusing idea of mine to "borrow" a Witch of Dathomir for each of my capital ships... use the woman to magically augment the shields. Or... ductape a WOD artifact to the reactor core... *shrug* I never pursued it because I didn't feel it was a fair road to go down. But if you're getting bullied by Force Wuzzards, you should probably look into getting the Jedi to make you some artifacts and NPC's.

 

[Gir Quee]

[member="Captain Larraq"] lol sorry about that. I'm never consistent with my force abilities at master levels.

Someone should really see if an OOC pact can be made to curb over zealous use of the force.

[member="Beowoof"] They seriously reported you for playing music? Sure you can feel distraught in the middle of a BATTLE, but that doesn't mean your morale is shot to everything. You can be influenced, but you shouldn't be dominated.

This.

As much as many of us fleeters are uncomfortable with it, I don't think it's ever going to go away. It's too much a part of Star Wars canon, and there are a handful of force-users interested in fleeting. And as long as it's not being used a "magic bullet" per se, I personally don't have a problem with its use, as long its written well and with some decent substance.

I actually think Prakith was a good example of how people should roleplay battle meditation.

Silara put a fair amount of substance and thought into her work, and on top of that, she interacted on a personal level with the Sith admiral present. Nor was there any ambiguous expectation of sudden victory after three sentences of work, and to an extent, like Larraq mentioned, a hit was taken, and then recovered from.

That being said, for me personally, it's also about the amount of work put into it to. If I've written a ten sentence long paragraph on what I'm doing to keep morale up or why morale is high, and then someone tries to say that it's now in the craps after a single sentence saying they're using battle meditation to suppress it, I'm probably going to at least raise an eyebrow at its use.

And just for reference, this would seem to suggest that using Battle meditation, especially on fleeting levels, is not exactly an easy thing to do even for a Master. It should require a decent amount of work:



I like Fatty's suggestion of making Battle Meditation not entirely consistent at these levels, and perhaps it could be somewhat codified to act in the same way as the rules for the Terminus campaign (it can be used, but not on every round). Perhaps during the rounds when it's not being used, it could be roleplayed as a recovery period for the force-user in question, or the practioner is just off in its use that it doesn't have an effect.

 

[Ellie Mors]

A way I look at battle meditation when used on a massive level (see: entire armadas or large portions of planets) is the way that the Battle of Onderon was handled with Arca Jeth and the Queen of Onderon, a follower of Freedon Nadd. Almost the entire population was in chaos because of her use of the Waves of Darkness (which for all intents and purposes is the superior version of the dark side battle meditation on the ground, and entirely useless in space) but there was a pocket of those who were completely unaffected, or at least only marginally so, and it was more because of their resolution - the battle for them was worth something more than just winning.The citizens that ran in terror only wished to win so they could see victory - a loss for them meant devastation, something the small minority did not fear because they knew inaction would be the same result. Similarly, one could write their character as such if it fits their character - not all characters are like this, however, so it really depends on who is being effected. That isn't to say people should shrug its effects off or ignore it.

That being said, there are a number of things which can enhance the power of battle meditation - such as a meditation chamber, or to an even greater extent would be the Sith meditation sphere that Naga Sadow utilized in the Great Hyperspace Wars. The former is more common for both Dark Siders and Light, while the latter is almost forgotten technology - I am under the impression I am the only person with a ship that retains such.

Anywho, in the end you write your character - they do not. If you feel you would not feel crushing emotional sickness or what have you, then you can lessen the blow and minimize it - just rationalize it with something that would resonate with the ability, like steeling your resolve.

 

[Laira Darkhold]

Since it has been discussed that Battle Meditation isn't going anywhere, here is my easy fix. It should work, but you need three things, a Master Level FU (If you have a faction these are easy), time to do a Dev Thread (Do one for a whole 10km fleet so make it good and long), and willingness to do a codex submission.

Step One: Select crewmen based on resolve and willpower (Lengthy Dev Thread)
Step Two: Train them to understand and counter Jedi Mind Tricks (Basically Offensive Battle Meditation is this on massive scale)
Step Three: Train Crewmen extensively, do a Skirmish or two with them (Seriously give them notable combat experience, maybe even and invasion or two)
Step Four: Purchase some Ysalamiri for the Bridge or Better train Bridge Crews (smaller Dev thread to add on)
Step Five: Submit Crew to the Codex (You might have to break them up to smaller units, but I have seen 10,000 strong units allowed)
Step Six: Use them, take notice and recognize you have worked hard to be able to counter this and react to the attack as you see fit. You have that freedom now, and a reason you were capable of the attack not affecting morale heavily (Mention them early and often during fleeting, linking to them early and often, don't just mention it at the time of the attack)

If you don't get attacked in this way, they are of very little benefit, but if you do you can react as you want. You can take the whole attack based on whats happening, or mention that your crews are aware and able to maintain their effectiveness due to their superior training. If an RPJ or Admin is forced to step in you can show you did work to gain those benefits of mental resistance without being game breaking.

 

[Gir Quee]

Good ideas, though 10 kilometers worth of ships may be too many. I do like the idea of doing a codex submission and development thread for a battle meditation resistant crew.

I think the key here is to strike a balance where Battle Meditation isn't automatically over-powering to NFUs, but Battle Meditation shouldn't worthless either, and should be a valuable addition to whoever's fleet is using it.

But getting that balance is one of those things that's easier said than done.

 

[Laira Darkhold]

Then only do submissions for your primary ships. That will decrease the necessary length of the dev thread behind them, but will allow the offensive capabilities of Battle Meditation to disrupt your smaller craft while your big bad ships continue as they were. That said, even if you dev an entire fleet, the idea isn't to say that they CAN'T be disrupted, only that they don't HAVE to be disrupted.