Force Net vs Odojinya: What's the difference?

[Zambrano the Starweird]

The Topic of Discussion today are the force powers, Force net, and the Sith Ritual Odojinya.

Supposedly, according to Wookiepedia, they are separate powers. However, this is an excerpt that ALMOST literally matches both submissions in Wookiepedia:

• "...strands of dark side energy that would wrap around the target and ensnare them in an unbreakable mesh. The lattice of dark energy would then effectively sever the being's connection to the Force and continuously sap their strength as well." Odojinya

• "...strands of energy that would wrap around the target and ensnare it in an unbreakable mesh. The lattice of dark energy would then effectively sever the connection between the Force, and the trapped target, regardless of Force affiliation, and continuously sap the target's strength. After this, the energy lines would proceed to slice through anything they touched." Force Net.

Anything underlined were words that didn't match the other. Essentially, if I were to combine the two definitions that both of them held and omitted anything that was different between the two, this is what we get:

• "Strands of energy the would wrap around the target and ensnare them in an unbreakable mesh. The lattice of dark energy would then effectively sever the connection with the Force, and continuously sap the target's strength."

So the difference is, is that the first power is somehow more dark side orientated than the second one due to its Sith Ritual origin (one can assume), even though the second one has "energy lines [that] would proceed to slice through anything they touched", and "regardless of Force affiliation", as if to indicate that the first one is incapable of working properly if their Force affiliation is somehow different.

What's the deal with this? Can we just assume that both of them are the same technique and have all effects mentioned in ether submission?

TL;DR: These two powers are basically plagiarized by the other/the same even though Wookiepedia lists them as two separate powers that are so minutely different its difficult to see why they bothered trying to separate them and make them different. Can't we just pretend that they are the same thing please?

 

[Darth Metus]

[member="Zambrano the Hutt"]

I've always operated under the assumption that they're the same technique.

Wookiepedia is a fan-made Compendium of information. It's well sourced and it's rare that bull poodoo gets posted, but every now and then redundancies happen.

 

[Zambrano the Starweird]

[member="Isley Verd"] Sweet :3

 

[Captain Jordan]

When in doubt, go with your gut. This is your writing, after all, and it's not like you even have to name the technique in your post. Talk about what it's doing, how you do it, and that should be good enough.

If your character is teaching someone else, okay, a name would be useful. Or referencing it. But when using powers, I've found it's easy enough to describe what's being done than actively name the power.

 

[Zambrano the Starweird]

[member="Captain Jordan"] I was going more for like, if someone is trying to call my BS, I know which one to use and why. But if everyone is basically cool with these two things being the same thing, then I guess it doesn't matter a whole lot which one I do... or perhaps doubly better if I link them both! To show the absurd identicalness of the two of course

 

[Via Dolorosa]

[member="Zambrano the Hutt"]

When I use a power most people don't know like Taint or Mind Shard...I describe it in my writing and link it from wookiepedia. That way if they don't understand what I'm getting across, they can look it up themselves.

As for the difference between Force Net and Odojinya, there really isn't much of one. Some people would pointe out minute differences but they are just being jerks

 

[Sabena Shai]

I've never liked Wookieepedia's stance on article creation. If it doesn't match something already existing 100% or has a different name, a new article is created. This results in a ridiculous amount of articles that are either one sentence or essentially the same thing as something that already exists.

It's getting better, though - yet only for popular pages. Telekinesis now features a lot of material that was spread among several pages a few years ago.

Though a note about Wookieepedia: the info on it is very, very short compared what you can pull from the actual work that it's referencing. Even if Wookieepedia does pretty much say these two articles are describing almost the same thing, it's probably best to actually read the stories it came from.

 

[Ellie Mors]

[member="Zambrano the Hutt"]
The difference is as slight as the difference between Darkshear and Dark Side Tendrils, in essence they seem identical, but in reality they're different fundamentally.

 

[Trenchcoat Man]

It looks like the difference is that one is Sith Magic while the other is Force Mastery.

The Sith Magic one is weaker (as all Sith Magic is), due to its requiring a ritual, which likely includes a bunch of unnecessary, superstitious steps to try and garner a result where the cause and effect relationship has not yet been made ironed-out, mapped, and made precise.

The second one, Force Net, is an actual Darkside Power, honed from the ritual of O-Whateverthehell and mastered so only the precise action is performed for the precise result, and even going on to create a more catastrophic effect, as the will is uncluttered by religious dogma.

In short, Sith Magic is pushing several buttons on a control panel, even the wrong ones, in a prescribed order because you know that ONE of those buttons works, but not which one. Darkside Force Mastery is hitting the right button and not jamming it up with all the superfluous nonsense.

 

[Zambrano the Starweird]

[member="Trenchcoat Man"] That actually makes a LOT of sense. Thank you! I guess I won't be combining the two into the same group then like I was planning to, and just use Force Net if I ever get around to learning it later on

If I had put this into the appropriate forum, I'd mark that as the best answer

 

[Ellie Mors]

In short, Sith Magic is pushing several buttons on a control panel, even the wrong ones, in a prescribed order because you know that ONE of those buttons works, but not which one. Darkside Force Mastery is hitting the right button and not jamming it up with all the superfluous nonsense.

I believe you're confusing Sith Magic rituals with Sith magic in general. Several force abilities that are labelled Sith magic require no forms of ritualistic steps that one would expect from a cultist religion, such as the Dark Side Tendrils and Force Blast. Dark Side Tendrils being similar to Darkshear, but obviously far more powerful in being a tendril of raw dark side energy that quite literally destroys anything it comes in contact with, whereas Darkshear/Spear of midnight black is more of a physical spear, albeit invisible. Force blast is both a dark side power and a sith magic power, the only difference between the two is that the sith magic ability is raw energy rather than a push through telekinesis.

Qazoi Kyantuska also requires no rituals, and simply takes effect by being in the same vicinity as the victim, or within range of their sensory abilities.

 

[Zambrano the Starweird]

[member="Silara"] Be that as it may, Odojinya is described as a ritual, so I feel his explanation of Sith rituals is accurate, which is why we don't see the same raw power in the Sith magic version of the force power as you point out in your post.

 

[Ellie Mors]

[member="Zambrano the Hutt"]
I agree with his explanation of the difference between Force Net and Odojinya, just not with his over-arching comparison between Sith Magic and general dark side powers. Sith magic is only accessible by a very, very, small fraction of the force user population, and it isn't a learning thing - you are either born with the ability to perform Sith magic or you are not.

 

[Zambrano the Starweird]

[member="Silara"] Ah, gotcha

 

[Trenchcoat Man]

[member="Zambrano the Hutt"]
I agree with his explanation of the difference between Force Net and Odojinya, just not with his over-arching comparison between Sith Magic and general dark side powers. Sith magic is only accessible by a very, very, small fraction of the force user population, and it isn't a learning thing - you are either born with the ability to perform Sith magic or you are not.

So, on top of having to be born into the small fraction of the cosmic population with enough midichlorian build-up to wield the Force, there's now an even more super exclusive club for Force Magic?

Nah.

They refer to the same thing -- the ability to wield Sith Magic IS the ability to wield the Force. The issue with the "cultists" is that they're from a small, deviant Force philosophy that understands how to manipulate the Force differently. They have to utilize Force Magic because, again, the part of the Force they seek to manipulate is uncharted. Sith Magic has the potential to be devastating, but only because, in its wild nature, it can tap an accidental/experimental effect that mainstream masters have yet to achieve, making it difficult for them to fathom, protect against, or replicate themselves. At the end of the day, though, when the Masters discover, learn, and iron-out the practice of this "Magic Spell," their version will be more potent. I pity the fool who tries to Force Magic a Force Wave at a guy who is simply using Force Wave. Telekinesis isn't a "thing," so much as it's a category for grouping Force Powers that manifest in a certain way. This isn't the X-Men.

Anyway, any crazy, ancient Sith Magic Spell that may exist, it's crazy and awesome because the technique was kept secret to begin with, and wasn't subjected to the generations of practice and refinement that would have made it part of the Sith Force User repertoire. It would've been stronger if it had, but everybody would have been able to do it.

[member="Silara"] I think your confusion regarding Sith magic has to do with your misconception as to what a ritual is. A "ritual" doesn't have to manifest as a bunch of fetishes scattered along a shape drawn in virgin blood upon the ground. It can be a mantra, a happy thought, or just focusing one's Will through the channel of a perceived godform. In execution, it can look very similar to what a Jedi does with a gesture. The difference being is that the Jedi manipulates the Force directly, as though he would his arm, while a Sorcerer does it indirectly, as he might a puppet.

This whole confusion comes from Munchkin fans who want hard stats and clear definitions for their character sheets as to what's occurring, why, and how it can be stopped, when, in the movies, or in text, they often appear more as "The Jedi focuses really hard and sends bad vibes" and other hippie New Age-y stuff that doesn't have clear implication or measurable result -- Did Obi-Wan literally "dominate the minds" of the sandtroopers when he said "These are not the droids you're looking for," or did he simply speak with enough confidence to a pair of underpaid, unmotivated, overworked employees who were really only acting out a mind-numbing routine anyway? In the movie, it was what it was. On a pen and paper character sheet, it becomes FORCE PERSUASION. Sometimes this added to the Lore, other times, it creates fifteen car pile-ups like Sith Magic of WAY BACK somehow seen as more powerful than the tried-and-true Darkside School of RIGHT NOW. Then again, I guess it's part of the human experience to feel like you would have got along better in the past...

Oh, well. Canon's been wiped clean anyway.

 

[Matsu Xiangu]

[member="Trenchcoat Man"]

You're just mad because I can blow up a star with woo-woo magic.

<3

 

[Trenchcoat Man]

[member="Matsu Xiangu"]

Not if I eat it first

:lol: <---Big Bite Face.

 

[Matsu Xiangu]

[member="Trenchcoat Man"] Then I'd just be impressed.

 

[Ellie Mors]

[member="Trenchcoat Man"]
I was going specifically with what Freedon Nadd informed Darth Bane when Darth Bane attempted to learn Sith Magic and was told he was born without the ability to do so, thus handing over the holocron and written teachings to his apprentice, Darth Zannah, who mastered the art of Sith Magic as a dark side art in a way that utilized it without the same sort of voodoo-like actions the likes of Naga Sadow performed over Empress Teta in a more refined, powerful way. I believe Sith magic is split in two categories, the ritualistic magic that is used to summon dreambeasts, smoke demons, etc, and the more general definition being the usage of the raw power of the dark side - as any dark side power which utilizes the raw power of the dark side is generally considered sith magic, outside of force lightning.

Sith magic is like the Sith alchemy of the dark side power realm, it goes far more in-depth in its use, potentially creating more devastating displays of power while also being far more difficult to perform. As far as I am aware it was not a pursued art because primarily it was so few in masters, and that occurred in much the same way as it did for Darth Bane. I'm sure it could have been adapted to the general force user, but if there had been a larger population of the general Sith magic practitioner it would have been just as effective with the same level of raw power.

Also, to note, Sith alchemy is a category of Sith magic.

 

[Zambrano the Starweird]

[member="Silara"] Could it be possible, that Nad merely believed you had to be born with it, as part of the ritualistic aspect of Sith Magic, when Bane might have just had a little trouble starting out? Since Nad told him so, he believed it to be true, and thus passed up the opportunity to learn it as his apprentice did?