How do you view/use Philosophy in Star Wars?

[Nerd Wizard]

Just curious as to what everyone thinks about this particular subject. Which real-world philosophies resonate the most with you, why is that the case, and do you enjoy making use of them in creating your OCs and when worldbuilding? If at all? If not, now that you've been given the idea, is there any particular type of philosophy you'd like to use in regards to your fan works?

For my part, you'll find all of my characters to be existential in nature, along the lines of Kierkegaard. His Three Stages of existence are both useful and universal when creating, and I've always enjoyed analyzing all forms of fiction in comparison to some of his views. He's a bit annoying to read, but well worth it for anyone seeking to dive into the nature of individualism as it relates to maturity, immaturity and morality as a whole. Certainly easier to read then the nightmare that is Kant. My villains, meanwhile, usually resonate along the lines of Thomas Hobbes' Leviathan or the "Sage" described by Arthur Schopenhauer.

That, and there's the added bonus that if he were alive today, Kierkegaard would certainly be a fellow nerd and would have plenty of great things to say about the first six Star Wars films and most of the EU, as well.

Now for a crash course in philosophy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0zmfNx7OM4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9JCwkx558o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nb4nYqNXyM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLJBzhcSWTk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9i4jb5XBX5s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iw36V_iXR2k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkh2TXCHpNs

(Sorry for the buttload of information - enjoy, though, at the same time!)

 

[Jsc]

Never for characters I intend to play long term. I've learned to let them be built and influenced mostly by incharacter interactions and the current timelines. However, specific characters (such as aliens and admirals,) do require a specific world view. Something they can stand on, clutch to their hearts, and lead with. These tend to be mostly pulled from Wookieepedia.

As for the genre itself? It's a mix. Every writer seems to bring something different to the table and focus on little bits, here and there. Whether that be George Lucas, LucasArts, Disney, or just other fan writers in general. Everybody's got something to share and I'm okay with having such a ridiculous level of diversity abound in my RPs.

If my own writing were to have a philosophy? I'd appreciate it being classified by all as: Laser Swords, Thigh High Boots, and Even Redder Explosions. by Micheal Bay.

 

[Nerd Wizard]

[member="Jsc"] Well, let me clarify: it's not that I don't let my characters be shaped and molded into solely one philosophy at the expense of all else and that all of their choices MUST follow this one worldview, but, as a rule, their respective outlooks and experiences have shaped them, over the course of their experiences, into fitting (somewhat) into one of those categories, moreso then all other worldview descriptions, if that makes sense. I overanalyze every element of fiction and try to categorize them in comparison to RL worldviews... It's been a hobby over the past (almost) nine years now... Wow, I feel old. Just thought I'd share some ideas which can be easily translated over to worldbuilding, with enough practice.

 

[Jsc]

I overanalyze every element of fiction and try to categorize them in comparison to RL worldviews...

Why? Do you write for an audience?

 

[Hammerhead]

I personally hold the vision that the Jedi Code is essentially Taoism, with the Force being the Tao/Dao, an amoral, inhuman prime mover that guides all of existence. KOTOR II probably explains it best, with Kreia outlining things perfectly. So the purpose of the Jedi Order isn't to actually be some sort of interstellar Justice League or whatever, the goal is to preserve order, and make sure the galaxy is moving in harmony with the will of the Force. The Sith, conversely, embody Nietzsche's philosophy of the Will To Power. Sith-ism presents all of life as organisms striving to be more powerful than they presently are. As such, the Sith don't view the Force as a sovereign quasi-god like the Jedi, because God is Dead of course. Rather, they see the Force as a means to an end, an instrument they can use to maximize their personal power and become greater, no matter what its own will is. This means Sith-ism is fundamentally disruptive towards the Force, destabilizing and disrupting galactic harmony.

As for my characters, I actually play off of Tehkyram as a perverse parody of my own personal beliefs, but with some of Georges Bataille added in. I'm more or less a gnostic at this point: taking away all the religious stuff, I believe that the world is fundamentally imperfect, but man can ultimately perfect himself and transcend the flawed world he lives in. Tehkyram feels the same way, kind of: All of life is fundamentally flawed, wicked, and undeserving of existence. The only form of purity is non-existence, or death. After all, the only thing exterior of existence is non-existence, which means non-existence is infinitely greater than existence. So for Tehkyram, death is the ultimate higher power, even more powerful than the Force. And so as such, to transcend his impure existence he must commune with death through extreme meditation, murder, ritual corpse mutilation, more murder, poetry about death, and even more murder.

 

[Nerd Wizard]

Why? Do you write for an audience?

Naw. I simply find an odd source of amusement from comparing philosophies to the worlds, archetypes and characterizations of fiction. Philosophy, archetypes and history are the building blocks of the very genre we are enjoying, after all - the fictional elements are just added on for the fun of it.

 

[Jsc]

[member="Last-Nerd-Bard"] - Word.

 

[Nerd Wizard]

[member="Hammerhead"] Your views on the Tao in comparison to the Force are interesting, and that's certainly one way to look at it. Personally, I view the Force's Light Side as being similar to Kierkegaard's views on the old Judeo-Christian God - if it has a "will", then, even if it is beyond your ability to conceptually grasp it, it is, in fact, sentient. Qui-Gon Jinn once referred to the Dark Side as (and I'm paraphrasing here) "...Rust adhered to the surface of a coin, which will be scraped off that the coin may be seen properly and in its total purity..." As evil forces are bound and controlled by this Ultimate Source and are reigned in by the greater power, so too is the Dark Side a weaker power source which will be outdone by the Greater Source (the Light Side) time after time. A classic "good triumphs over evil" trope, in the end. Without the emphasis on morality and immorality, the sentients of the galaxy would stagnate over time, and all meaning would be lost, as Nietzsche wrote, and therefore nihilism would reign. I know this outlook flies in the face of the "Chosen One" prophecy, but if you read Qui-Gon's views on the concept of the "Living Force", then this theory becomes a bit more plausible. Master Qui-Gon is the essence of Kierkegaard made manifest in that universe. His views on the simplicity of Jedi lifestyle and his rejection of and indifference to mainstream society, combined with his outlook on the Living Force, makes him the perfect candidate for Kierkegaard's Knight of Faith, especially when you take into account his relationship with Tahl (I think that was her name), that blind woman he fell in love with at one point. That's one of the more enjoyable comparisons I was able to make once I started comparing this stuff with my favorite fiction.

 

[STaCLO]

For one of my character, [member=Jorco Czeku] I wanted to make him a sort of nihilist, similar to that of say the joker, but in somewhat less active/destructive way. Where he's more then willing to share his views and maybe even pass them on all while wanting to see the world burn, but with far more optimism. Not to say that he is an optimist, just feeling a sense of liberation in believing that there's no higher power to influence him then himself. I hope that makes sense

As for old STaCLO and SYN (the other more oppressed half) they have a bit of a quasi-spiritual view on things. Believing that only machines with AI and software have spirits that can persist beyond the physical world and do things even without a mechanical body. They could be believers in the idea the world is a simulation but where machines like himself are the real active players in it since they have what could be considered ghosts just made of software. Whilst organics don't have as much if even any capacity for life beyond "death." But where Force sensitives are a rare exception that have gained some kind of favor in the simulation to gain power and a life past death.

[member="Last-Nerd-Bard"]

 

[Nerd Wizard]

[member="STaCLO"] Czeku sounds very much in line with Nietzsche's Will to Power and reeks of pure moral nihilism, based on the description you just shared. Scary, psychotic stuff.

Regarding that second part, those beliefs on metaphysics are amusing, and are perfect for a smug, aloof set of villains, for sure - it smacks of in-universe, cold and distant racism, to watch in complacency and in league with the "truth", while organics pass on, without ever suspecting that they were in the wrong, all along. Let the indifferent program sort things out, and seek to harmonize one's view in league with the nature of Reality... Like the dog tied to a cart, you either follow the cart you are attached to or be dragged along the road against your will. There's a smattering of Stoicism in that outlook, good sir.

 

[Shoden Moz]

[member="Last-Nerd-Bard"]

The nightmare that is Kant.

DO not remind me pls.

As for philosophy, I don't really know the proper parallels. I know to some extent Darlyn is somewhat utilitarian, but he does not by any means *embody* that philosophy outside of a set of actions/ideas he has. Such as the idea that the Force is a tool to be used to create the best possible scenario, i.e. the greatest happiness.

But its been ages since i took a philosophy course so, i might not be remembering everything clearly.

 

[Hishamori]

[member=Last-Nerd-Bard]

Interesting discussion thread, and honestly one of my favorite academic subjects.

Philosophy I've always found interesting not matter what it is, now sadly i'm not interested enough to make a career out of it, but i love it enough to be very willing to learn anything new about it.

Personally speaking, i'm more the fundamental balance bit of the spectrum of living. We humans for example while able to do great and amazing things also have the potential to do just as much as harm as good. So in that respect the two balance out.

As for character creation aspect or applications, I've done it in my head, but sadly have not put it to paper. I've always had an over active imagination, i can make up total worlds with a deep lore with many characters to fill it with stories and life as whole, but sadly I'm pretty horrible at actually translating the things i come up with from my head to an actual story in words on paper.

Now my character Hishamori is a bit of an attempt at doing this, truthfully speaking this Hishamori is one of dozens, and i do mean dozens, of different versions of her. I can honestly say that I've made a up bunch of stories with just this one original character template. From fantasy, to sci-fi, to reality even. Quite a lot you can do with one character if your willing to just experiment.

This version is well, a version that's both quite realistic and yet well she's in star wars so the fantasy is definitely there along with the science fiction. She's also bit of a tragic character, she had quite a bright future up until a certain point where it went all up in flames. She's no hero, but she could be one. she's not a great leader, but she has the possibility of becoming one given time. She's admittedly a haunted woman that may never truly recover, but the pain may fade and dull down to nothing to but a mere throb that pops up every now and then again to remind her what she's lost.

Like i said, it all balances out. Similar to how the force acts or seems to be like in star wars.

 

[Nerd Wizard]

[member=Last-Nerd-Bard]

As for character creation aspect or applications, I've done it in my head, but sadly have not put it to paper. I've always had an over active imagination, i can make up total worlds with a deep lore with many characters to fill it with stories and life as whole, but sadly I'm pretty horrible at actually translating the things i come up with from my head to an actual story in words on paper.

Now my character Hishamori is a bit of an attempt at doing this, truthfully speaking this Hishamori is one of dozens, and i do mean dozens, of different versions of her. I can honestly say that I've made a up bunch of stories with just this one original character template. From fantasy, to sci-fi, to reality even. Quite a lot you can do with one character if your willing to just experiment.

Like i said, it all balances out. Similar to how the force acts or seems to be like in star wars.

Those points... I couldn't have put my own methodology into words as effectively as you did, as wracked by sickness as I have been for the past twelve hours... My whole experience with worldbuilding, ever since I began to take it seriously around nine or so, can be reduced to those same elements.

I can't put into words how fun it is to imagine different variants of the same character, shaped into slightly different forms by both the vast array of choices that one person may make and with slight changes to backstory added in. It's fun to craft a literal multiverse of characters with the same basic essence, yet differentiated by radically different outcomes all based on their choices. The existentialists would all be fascinated by this genre, had it existed in their day, for its potential to contemplate the nature of moral and immoral choices and how all of that can affect a person's outcome. Socrates, Kierkegaard and Nietzsche (to a degree), off the top of my head, would have loved to delve into our hobby, among others - though Nietzsche would have, in the end, deconstructed the damn thing, just like Rian Johnson (Eff him). We'd have to kick his ass out, in the long run.

 

[Amilthi Camlenn]

[member="Hammerhead"]

+1 for Jedi not being crusaders for modern ethical values!

Taoism does look like relevant inspiration for Jedi, but I don't know the first thing about it. The spiritual aspects of my Jedi characters are instead inspired by Buddhism.

 

[Jessica Med-Beq]

Jessica is probably more one to make a distinction between alignment and morality, whereas the former is about how the Force is used and the latter is about why.

As for the Force itself, it seems to be a collection of quantum fields to her, and, from there, any manifestation of its will is, in fact, reductible to quantum dice which, in turn, form a perfect RNG.

 

[Ellie Mors]

My characters have values shaped by how I feel I would react to events that have happened in the galaxy if they were me/I them.

 

[Nerd Wizard]

[member="Amilthi Camlenn"]

Hmm... If you've not looked into it already and are interested in a variant of Buddhist thought combined with a warrior's outlook, I highly recommend The Book of Five Rings by Miyamoto Musashi. The chapter "The Book of Emptiness" is textbook Jedi mindset - replace "The Way" with "The Force" in that short section, and you'll get the essence of Jedi battle tactics, and, of course, pieces of the remaining chapters can easily apply to our favorite space heroes, as well.

Personally, I think the Jedi wouldn't be as involved in Galactic society if they weren't so interested in morality. Not forming any lasting connections doesn't imply a disinterest in morality in any way. If anything, modern morality is very much emphasized in the Classic Six and the EU, as well.

[member="Jessica Med-Beq"]

Sounds like Determinism, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Tathra Khaeus]

​I'll bluntly admit that - I have literally no real education regarding philosophy. But;

​As far as this character goes? As far as Chaos writing goes I feel like most aliens written are too often written like humans in a different skin. I try to differentiate myself from that with Tathra. As far as his characteristics go, there is a world view of an importance in adaptability and competence in the face of adversity. A respect for nature and the gifts of the flesh and of by extension the force as, in the Draelvasier [my homebrew species that Tathra hails from] belief system the force falls under the guise of nature.

​They use fire as an allegory for life, that each being has a fire within that they alone are responsible for looking after.

​They believe in discipline and prowess/proficiency and gain this through dominance. Whether that be via taming a wild beast or killing a powerful opponent, and by extension adding their fire to their own. Either by eating them, honouring their bodies or burning them with their fire breath and immersing themselves in the smoke. These beliefs are core to this characters leadership skills, his combative prowess placing him as Chieftain of their people. Thus, there is a constant pressure to improve.

It's a harsh viewpoint that holds no love for those that can't fend for themselves.

- I'm not the best for summaries but I hope this helps or even just contributes to the discussion [member="Last-Nerd-Bard"]

​

 

[Ellie Mors]

Lily believes that all things require a structure, but that structure should be to the benefit of the people - but not just the people, the desired people. Her people (she's the sovereign of a system in the core, ergo the possessive), followed by those that are aligned with or beholden to those people, towering above the undesirables. The undesirables, of course, being those that provoke the removal of structure and order without the desire to institute a better structure and order (not the lack thereof, so anarchy to create a scenario where another regime or order can be propped up is okay, but anarchy for the sake of anarchy is bad) as well as people who want to subjugate or oppress her people. She's extremely nationalist, and core-first, in political view - in that the core should care about itself before the rest of the galaxy, and her people should care about themselves before the core, and that her interests lie in her people before the rest.

Braith is a theist, and was raised as believing herself to be one of the deities of the pantheon of her tribe (some ten or so thousand years ago, before an event that led her to reaching to the modern era) incarnate. To that end she sees herself as above all other authority but subject to causality, and all others are simply imperfect creations without full understanding of the world around them.

Irina is a vehicle of chaos. In her eyes there is no more meaning to life but simply to be - and that the only morality is in pursuit of the survival of oneself. There is no objective morality, and indeed life and reality are amoral, as is the force. As the only "morality" she holds herself to is continued existence, the wholesale murder and death of others is without remorse or regret, with no bearing on her conscience. She believes that societies are built on a struggle to make a purpose beyond surviving individually by those who are too weak to prop themselves up, to attempt to create the ideas of camaraderie and order, as well as other social constructs, as a way to extend this ultimate meaning to all life, as a whole - an idea which she is deeply opposed to. To put it bluntly, she believes that every last organism should look out for themselves, and only themselves, and never concern themselves with the idea of others sharing worth with them (and in fact actively work against others). It's paradoxical - everyone's ultimate purpose is survival, but that purpose is only for them alone, and there is no meaning in life itself or as a species or as a member of the galaxy at all besides struggling to exist. Killing someone else shouldn't matter or impact you emotionally/psychologically because their lives are without worth to you, but your life is the single most important thing in the entire galaxy and across all theoretical existence to yourself and you should put every fiber of your being into preserving that single life; and she goes a step further and pushes for actively working against others to remove the competition.

 

[Nerd Wizard]

[member="Tathra Khaeus"]

Everything you mentioned seems to fit into the ethics which have always been found in tribal units across the world, specifically Native American and Central/South American beliefs in particular, if you want my opinion regarding the specifics of all the details you mentioned. But, of course, virtually all forms of tribalism, regardless of region, took similar harsh views on life, themselves, and all embraced the same underlying morals and lack of morals, as well. Peel back enough layers in EVERY human culture, and they're all reduced to the same basic essence, if you think about it.