Increase Minor Faction Ship Size Limit

[Kael Rose]

So I was taking a look the other day at the Ship Fielding limits and such and found this excellent graphic.

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Which makes a ton of sense in my mind, except for minor factions. 1000m feels too small with the expansion that's happened in ship sizes on the board. In the past people could only go to 400m by themselves, and Major Factions could only build to 2000m outside of Event Stuff. Both have been bumped, but minor factions haven't had similar circumstances.

Now, Minor Factions don't have a ton of resources, and can be any number of things. This is why I love the "PC-Captained" speculation, because different minor factions do different things, and it rewards minor factions that have more people with more resources. But if you look at the production limits of companies a Tier 3 company, which can be made instantly with Major Faction Mandates or with 6 factory/codex submissions and 3 threads can Mass-Produce ships of up to 1000 meters. Mass-production is defined as (Anyone) by the factory, which I take to mean that you can pop an NPC with that submission into most any thread and it be reasonable given faction/cultural circumstances.

But then you get to Tier 4, where a company can Mass-Produce ships of up to 2000 meters. If a ship can be produced so much that you can feasibly have one(or perhaps a different faction palette swap version) of it in any given thread than why can't a Minor Faction have the power to take control of one or two or even half a dozen if the minor faction has enough support(read, writers) behind it? It wouldn't upset any power balances as Major Factions can still field 2000m ships en masse, throw a special NPC here or there with a 3000m ships and field up to 5000 with a PC if they need to. Minor Factions vs Company to me is a matter of Company Tier vs Minor Faction Support(again, amount of writers). A group of five scallywags might not be able to take down Arceneau Trade Company in a fight, but perhaps a faction like the old Vagrant Fleet could if they were more focused on fleeting than travel.



TL: DR;


If a T3 company can mass produce ships up 1000m and T4+ can mass produce 2000m then there are enough big ships for a minor faction to reasonably have one, or even a few.
Letting a minor faction have 1400m or even 2000m PC-captained ships doesn't upset fleeting balance vs major factions, but might have some effect on fleeting vs companies(Does anyone actually fleet with a company?)
Booster Terrick ran a Star Destroyer, a Minor Faction PC should have the opportunity to tell similar stories

 

[Malok]

I agree.

I feel as though allowing Minor Factions to own/operate vessels the size of a standard ISD won't upset any balances. As of now, Majors can spawn an unlimited number of ships and companies can field an impressive number. A single ISD won't disrupt the balance at all.

#DoEet #WildWest #LessNoMoreYes

 

[William Kerkov Sr]

As someone who ran a minor faction based on a fleet for a year, I completely agree. The disadvantage that came with max length made it near impossible to fight one on one with anyone bigger than another minor faction.

An giving a minor faction a limited ISD size vessel won't tip the scales horribly, they are just going to be given a better chance against the nearly unlimited size of a major faction fleet.

 

[tsarwars]

This is interesting
Very interesting. I support you all the way though, as some one who is part of a minor faction, im bummed by the fact that we can't have anything bigger than 1000m and thats kinda small. No chance against major factions. Litteraly none. Not even against Tier 4 companies

 

[Cyrus Tregessar]

No chance against major factions. Litteraly none.

Just like the rebellion right?

For the record i support allowing minor factions to have unique star destroyer sized ships, but the above is just nonsense. Minors have successfully challenged majors both in canon and on the board, multiple times.

And if you can't figure out how to sink a Star Destroyer with corvettes and strike craft, well, shoot me a message and we'll talk shop.

 

[tsarwars]

[member="Cyrus Tregessar"]
The rebellion was in a movie. No one will allow their awesome flagship to be trench-runned to death. And in a direct encounter.... not gonna happen. I mean in rebellions or against a small force... it's possible. Taking down a star destroyer with corvettes and frigates (even cruisers for PC)is possible, But in the long run you have NO chance.

 

[Cyrus Tregessar]

But in the long run you have NO chance.

So you're saying in a drawn out war a small organization (like a crime syndicate) can't content with the might of of an interplanetary government.

Ok.

 

[ADM. Reshmar]

This again.... Yes you are a minor faction but as a minor faction, you are very limited in resources. SO let's say Brazill showed up one day with a supercarrier... Or what if Korea parked a ship off the coast with their busted ass cannot hit the side of a barn missiles. As a minor faction, you do not technically own a world. A Star Destroyer is expensive yo. And maintaining, operating, and servicing a vessel that big is out of the realm of possibility for a lot of small factions. I am all about the fleet you guys know this but giving any minor faction access to ships that size just does not pan. One maybe, A flagship rule for minors factions where they have one ship over 1km would work. but if you have every member of the faction showing up in a sleek 2km Destroyer it just overreaches what a minor faction is capable of.

Also, 1 km ships are no joke. heck, some 400-meter ships are brutal when used in packs, and Corvettes are fun as heck to write and again in packs can take down a destroyer with fighter support and good tactics. A major faction can not just pop in with a 10km fleet willy-nilly at every minor faction world and say we beat you on principle. I will put a good Vic and 4 corvettes with fighter support against an Imp any day.

 

[Kael Rose]

. As a minor faction, you do not technically own a world. A Star Destroyer is expensive yo.

A tier 4 faction can mass produce an unlimited number of 2000m ships without any development necessary.

How much is mass production of one model of ship on a galactic scale? 10,000 ships? 100,000 ships? A million? Ten Million?
How many ships are built by a company with a catalogue of 8-12 models of ships that are mass produced on a galactic scale?
Searching "Tier 4" tag in the company index give 26 results. "Tier 5" gives 20 results. "Tier 6" gives 15.

Let's assume half of those results make ships. 13 T4, 10 T5, 7T6(rounded down).

Lets assume a T4 company has a catalogue of 4 mass produced 2km ships, a T5 company a has catalogue of 8 2000m ships, and a T6 company has a catalogue of 12 2000m ships.

How many mass produced ships does that make across the galaxy?

If X Million/Billion/Trillion ships can be made, why can't a Minor faction have 1 per PC?

Why is it so expensive if we're making so much?

Who says that a minor faction that captains a 2000m ship is going to have three shifts and have it in top-fighting ship at every given moment?

Who says a minor faction can't organize a heist and take over one of however many ships are out there?

You talk about Corvettes and 1km ships and say they're capabilities of taking on a destroyer if they have good tactics. I don't disagree at all. But if you can mass produce 2000m ships and have limited production 3000m ships(which by definition can still be captained by an NPC) who says that you're fighting against one star destroyer?

 

[Enyo Typhos]

I support this.

 

[Cira]

Thank you for the idea. Factory staff will consider it.


Although I do want to clarify that Production does not equal fielding.

While yes, higher lever tier companies can field larger ships than a minor faction, they are also limited to a static fleet meterage max compared to minor factions that only have a "within reason" max for a combat fleet. A tier 3 can field up to a 1000 combat ship, but they are limited to only having a remaining 3500 meters for the rest of their fleet.

It's a give and take.

By all accounts a minor faction can produce and field equally as a tier 3 company right now, save that the minor faction has the advantage of not being limited in fleet size ( as long as it is reasonable) and an unlimited amount of 1000m for every writer that would pc captain a ship. ( meaning actually use) and the ability to have as many npc ships up to 500m as long as it is reasonable.

A minor faction of 10 writers could in essence have 10 1000m pc captained ships and no hard cap on how many npc captained ships at 500m as long as it is reasonable.

 

[ADM. Reshmar]

[member="Kael Rose"] tier 4 company also has about 6 to 10 or more planets building ships and is also only allowed 8km of ships.

If X Million/Billion/Trillion ships can be made, why can't a Minor faction have 1 per PC?

the Empire in all its glory over a span of 19 years only built 25,000 star destroyers. That is a government which ruled over millions of worlds for almost 2 decades.

just saying... in the end it is not about the size of the ship itis the writing

 

[Kael Rose]

[member="Kael Rose"] tier 4 company also has about 6 to 10 or more planets building ships and is also only allowed 8km of ships.



the Empire in all its glory over a span of 19 years only built 25,000 star destroyers. That is a government which ruled over millions of worlds for almost 2 decades.

just saying... in the end it is not about the size of the ship itis the writing

Tier 1 starts with 1 planet of influence. Not a planet owned, a planet where have a shop or factory.
Tier 2 gains you 1 location.
Tier 3 gains you one location or one operation
Tier 2 gains you one location and operation.

Additional planets/operations can be gained by dev threads as well, but your average Tier 4 company is going to have 3-5 locations, not 6 to 10.

How many more Star Destroyers would the Empire have built if they hadn't spent resources on two 160,000m diameter battle stations and a 19,000m Executor SD?

How much have manufacturing and mining capabilities advanced in 400 years(discounting 400 years of the Gulag Plague)?

 

[ADM. Reshmar]

[member="Kael Rose"] for all practical purposes a minor faction is a tier 1 company when you look at resources, they also do not own a planet. A minor faction only has a base on a planet just as a company only has its headquarters on a planet. In star wars companies like KDY, MCS, CDC, and others were far more powerful than most if not all minor factions. KDY had multiple worlds under their control as do several tier 5 and above. as for numbers. look at the planet list for the tier six companies. look at most of the tier 4 and you will see they do not just have the minimum amount. A company producing starships will have done the work and added several locations over what the base is. But let us just say the ones that just did not want to do the work and have the minimum given by the tier ups. that is 4 worlds compared to every minor factions 1. That means they should be able to field 4 times the ships if you go by the standards laid out for companies. However a minor faction concentrates on government and military where company sales most of its products. that's why a minor faction can field far more ships in battle. The issue is scope, a minor faction on chaos is basically a planetary government best and a group of force zealots in a cave at worst. Some minor factions are fleet based and would have more ships. these would be stolen ships of course. a group floating around in space would have no way to gather resources from worlds unless they raided for it or had a world they could mine. Also where do the crew come from? One thing that blows my mind is where do people find crew for all these ships. It is a good thing we have space magic. But think of your faction and go look at the population of the world you call home. now take about .6 percent of that and that is your manpower and that's a very generous percentage. during war sure more can be enslaved...I mean drafted but base wise less than 1 % of your pop military. good thing we do not bean count. anyway, my point is, you can not compare a minor faction to a company in the chaos universe. it is like comparing apples to tar. they are different things existing in different worlds. A major faction comes along and takes your world. If you are a minor faction you have to fight them or leave or join them in some way. if you are a company you keep on building stuff and wave at the new neighbors. Make good Heavy Cruisers. makes escort Carriers, makes good Support Frigates, and make fast Corvettes, or use one the hundreds of ships under 1km already made. there are very good ships out there. Anyone who wants always has permission to use any of my stuff they want. I have stated this many times. Others out there are the same. We make this stuff for people to use, not just for us to use.

Anyway, the point is to have fun and you do not need a 1600 meter ship to have fun fleeting.

 

[Lyth Meran]

hay as long as i can make a star destroyer i'm happy

 

[ADM. Reshmar]

[member="Lyth Meran"] yes build your beautiful things.