Jedi, Sith and eternal life

[Wolf]

"Eternal life…"
"The ultimate goal of the Sith, yet they can never achieve it; it comes only through the release of self, not the exaltation of self. It comes through compassion, not greed. Love is the answer to the darkness." ―Yoda and Qui-Gon Jinn

What is it exactly the Sith can't achieve that my homeboy Qui-gon is referring to? I believe this quote is from when he's telling Yoda about becoming a Force ghost. I found it on Wookieepedia but it wasn't sourced...

Yet Sith can become Force ghosts/spirits just like the Jedi can... so what's the difference? Both seem to be able to achieve "eternal life".

Unless it's something to do with becoming "one with the Force", whatever that means? (And I'm pretty sure Qui-gon is referring to becoming a Force ghost).

I guess the Sith were never meant to become Force ghosts, and the EU messed it up? Cos if both camps can live forever, the Force seems pretty indifferent to them and there doesn't seem to be much of a difference.

 

[Captain Jordan]

I think the Sith are referring to life on the physical plane, not the metaphysical. Force Ghostery is fun and all, but I can't imagine you're really real. You can appear to people and such, but you can't enjoy the pleasures of the physical realm.

I imagine being a Force Ghost is more like looking through a window to the physical world than actually appearing in it. You're beyond the veil, but you can glimpse the other side from time to time. Not exactly the most ideal circumstances for eternal life. And who knows who you're competing with for that window?

 

[Wolf]

[member="Captain Jordan"]
So then, what is the eternal life that the Jedi speak of?

 

[Trenchcoat Man]

Sith are capable of becoming Force Ghosts because all things are the Force. There's really no reason why NFUs can't be Force Ghosts -- the reason why they're not probably has more to do with NFUs not being able to detect and communicate with the Ghosts. ...Less a reason to return and help try to steer the world of Matter.

Anyway, it's the standard bit. Good Guys identify with the Spirit (Transcendent), Bad Guys identify with the Body (Impermanent). Sith Immortality comes in the form of body preservation, a la Darth Sion literally using the Force to hold himself together. This is why so many of them are cyborgs -- they cling to life for no other reason than that they can, and adhere to the Lower Three Chakras (Padme) - (3)Power, (2)Romantic Love/Sex/Group Standing, and (1)Pleasure/Pain binary. This is why Anakin's fall occurred in his literal efforts to protect PADME. They are dragons, accumulating gold, and virgins, etc, but they've no real knowledge of how to utilize them with any meaning (as the hero might) because their life is just a turning wheel of War, Sex, and Sleep (Why the Galactic Empire is a Gear).

The Jedi believe in transcendent ideals, like Christ, like Superman. Truth, Justice, Goodness, Compassion. Because they devote their being to abstract concepts, they can never truly die, because these things will always be around. Yoda's body may decay, but Truth is eternal, so he is as well. The Jedi become more than their biology by opening their hearts to the Great All Around and becoming it.

 

[Zambrano the Starweird]

Also, according to TCW season Six, a Sith Ghost like Darth Bane apparently has no influence over a subject that holds no fear for them. Once you deny that they are real, they are banished. My guess is that as spirits, a Sith's influence over the galaxy is weak, and relies on even weaker minds to control a body to affect the matter world, which he^ noted as being their center of attention.

A Jedi Force Ghost however can go just about anywhere, talk to any person, and even affect the force a little bit.

 

[Teynara Jeralyr]

It's worth noting that several canon sources also place massive limitations on such beings: even when it is possible for them to manipulate the material plain, this requires a lot of energy, and that often cannot be replenished. The Sith usually maintained their immortality by being bound to a place or object (think Liches and their Reliquaries) which tie them to the physical world, while Jedi simply transcend via death, but are incapable of affecting the living world directly.

Obi-Wan achieved this, but ultimately (according to EU) came to a point where he had to 'move on'. I would posit that this is a result of his diminishing energies, making him unable to appear in ghostly form. This would not be true for Sith as such, because they are bound to their physical locations - though only the strongest might be able to stray from their tombs or Temples. This is why Exar Kun ultimately fell: his spirit was trapped on Yavin IV, and the Jedi limited his influence to his Temple, enabling Corran Horn to permanently eliminate him when destroying that facility.

 

[Wolf]

[member="Trenchcoat Man"]
That's interesting, the two opposing ideas of hanging onto the material and carnal pleasures as opposed to something beyond and transcendent.

So "eternal life" is just some abstract concept of living on through a set of ideals? Sounds like a bit of a letdown.

[member="Zambrano the Hutt"]
That makes sense I suppose, thanks. It's not like the Jedi try to control minds either though. I reckon Sith spirits can interact with people, perhaps not dominating them, like Marka Ragnos in the Jedi Academy game (great game ).

[member="Tirdarius"]
Not sure about the diminishing energies bit. I would think Obi-wan was being idealistic as the Jedi are supposed to be, believing his mission was accomplished as it were, he had fulfilled his purpose and now could retire into the bliss of being one with the Force, seeing as Jedi do not fear death. If the Jedi Force ghosts also must move on, what do you think the "eternal life" that Qui-gon spoke of was referring to? Living through a set of ideals as suggested earlier?

 

[Trenchcoat Man]

[member="Wolf"]

It's the value of the story for us, as readers. It's what gives it its sense of completion. It's also not so much about adhering to a "set of ideals" in a religious sense. It's You, deified. Are you the lightbulb or are you the light? The Sith say the former, the Jedi say the latter.

You throw the bulb in the garbage when it's expended...but where does the light go?

All around us? Another bulb?

 

[Wolf]

[member="Trenchcoat Man"]
Uhh, the light is absorbed by surrounding objects and disappears.

 

[Teynara Jeralyr]

Not sure about the diminishing energies bit. I would think Obi-wan was being idealistic as the Jedi are supposed to be, believing his mission was accomplished as it were, he had fulfilled his purpose and now could retire into the bliss of being one with the Force, seeing as Jedi do not fear death. If the Jedi Force ghosts also must move on, what do you think the "eternal life" that Qui-gon spoke of was referring to? Living through a set of ideals as suggested earlier?

I don't think that the fading away part necessarily meant he was truly dead - it simply meant (as the books suggested) that he was passing on to the next phase of his existence. It's also worth noting that Qui Gon had little true clue: had hadn't long passed into being his ghostly self (and he never incarnated to be observed physically, so perhaps preserved more of his energies in doing so!), so I suspect he was simply referring to the ability to survive physical death.

By the by, the notion of diminishing energies is mostly drawn from Sith ghosts - at several points in SWTOR, Sith spirits make note of the fact that they have limited strength, and thus cannot necessarily manifest outside the location to which they are bound until that strength returns (if indeed it does!). Struck me as a fair explanation for why Jedi and Sith ghosts often disappear after a while - Obi-Wan eventually stopped incarnating (though the explanation behind that was sketchy), and neither Qui-Gon nor Yoda appeared physically beyond the ROTJ celebrations on Endor. That, to my mind, suggests a finite energy behind their ability to incarnate.

 

[Wolf]

[member="Tirdarius"]
I see your point, thanks for the explanation!

 

[Mak Manto]

I've always considered it that Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon, Yoda, etc. were able to retain their consciousness after death, which could be considered "eternal life" but they were only doing it to help with the state of the Galaxy. I never thought it was a permanent deal and that sooner or later, they would move on, continuing their path wherever it would lead.

 

[Sabena Shai]

"Eternal life…"
"The ultimate goal of the Sith, yet they can never achieve it; it comes only through the release of self, not the exaltation of self. It comes through compassion, not greed. Love is the answer to the darkness." ―Yoda and Qui-Gon Jinn

"That's just, like, your opinion, man."

My response to any apparent discrepancy in what a character says and what actually happens.

 

[Darth Carnifex]

*Floats about.*

Sup.