NFUs: Starting vs Learning Lightsabers

[Jsc]

Dear Admins,

This is taken from the "Character Creation" portion of our current ruleset:

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CREATING YOUR CHARACTER

• If your character's species is a hybrid of 3 or more species, you must first submit this new "hybrid species" to the Species Creation Codex.
• Your character is not God, he is not immortal and he is not invincible.
• Non-Force User characters may not start with the ability to wield a lightsaber.

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Please note the portion in green and please also note this rule makes no sense. A lightsaber is a magically constructed item, not a magically wielded one. An NFU can touch, hold, swing, and parry with a lightsaber without harm or consequence. Lightsabers pose no inherent or applied magical talents, (or restrictions), upon their wielders. They are just tools.

You cannot build a lightsaber without space magic. However, anybody can swing one. Therefore, please delete this rule.

EDIT: I'd like to reform my argument to include that this rule is also tastelessly unenforceable. Character profiles do not require approval and the word 'start' expires the moment the character hits the RPs. Your window of enforcement is slim to negligible. This extremely specific and ambiguously worded concern is not a problem on this website.

 

[Zayani Brin]

Makes sense. I agree!

 

[Nyxie]

[member="Jay Scott Clark"]
While I understand the argument you are making, the problem is that it -IS- a magically wielded item. Those who are proficient in the use of a lightsaber are able to perform all of those moves specifically because of the subtle guidance of the Force. Those who deflect blaster bolts and predict incoming saber throws do so with the Force. A lightsaber is nigh weightless save hilt, and thus in any normal practice of it, it would be incredibly difficult for a human(oid) mind to accurately and constantly account for as there is no outward momentum in a swing or parry.

For lack of a better explanation, those without the Force and thorough training are incredibly likely to cut themselves as they are their target.

 

[Beowoof]

Always wondered why this was a rule.

The Force helps someone deflect blaster bolts and the like. But what is stopping the average Joe from just swinging it around? I mean, even the average Joe is probably better at lightsaber safety than Luke!

 

[Darth Assimilus]

For lack of a better explanation, those without the Force and thorough training are incredibly likely to cut themselves as they are their target.

Spoiler

https://youtu.be/SoSayqv1TVI?t=1m19s

So Eh, What about General Grevious, Cad Bane and any other NFU who has wielded a Lightsaber or Lightfoil and has survived?

 

[Rusty]

There are precedents for non-Force users wielding lightsabers to various degrees. If I remember correctly, Tarfang the Ewok sliced and diced kiliks like nobody's business in the Dark Nest trilogy, and he had no experience at all. The Force certainly helps you get the most out of it, but there's no reason a normal couldn't learn to use one, or even use one well. After all, swords have been a thing for the entirety of human history, post the discovery of metallurgy.

 

[Jsc]

For lack of a better explanation, those without the Force and thorough training are incredibly likely to cut themselves as they are their target.

No.

 

[Sarge Potteiger]

No.

Yes, actually.

Though I'd shorten it to 'those without thorough training.' It's a weightless blade with 'a strong gyoscopic effect.' The majority of non-force users who've used it, such as Grevious, received training from Force Users; at least to start with.

The rule as it was originally intended was to ensure that non-force users received training before hefting the magic space wizard sword.

 

[Nyxie]

[member="Jay Scott Clark"]

Alright, perform a little test as proof of concept then. Grab a laser pen--if you have one--and start swinging it around like you presume a sword would be used. Pay close attention to where the laser is pointing, or ask someone to do it for you, and count how many times it ends up being on YOU.

Yeah. No. You're not gonna have a good time.

If it were real, you'd be dead! This is exactly why this rule exists. You misunderstand the intent; it is not there to stop non-Force Users from using a lightsaber! It is only there to make sure "Average Joe" doesn't pick up a lightsaber and suddenly jump in an Invasion or Skirmish with seasoned Force Users and thinking he is God and can cut steel plates in half with but a swing.

One measly training thread is required for a non-Force User to utilize a lightsaber. That's it. Asking for the rule to be removed, I argue in its defense, is pointless bordering redundant. It may even be harmful.

PS: Grievous was trained and his body was built in part for it. Lightfoils are a practiced art, like fencing. These people didn't walk to the corner store and pick a saber up.

 

[Rusty]

The majority, but not all.

*points at Tarfang*

Also, Kal Skirata took down several apprentices with a lightsaber after his daughter in law bought it trying to protect a clone trooper during Order 66.

I get that it's a super tricky weapon to use, but humanity has come up with crazier stuff over the years. Force users will always have an advantage over normals, and that's just the way it is. That doesn't mean a normal can't figure out how to use one of their toys, so long as it's not specifically triggered by the Force.

 

[Chiasa Kritivaas]

May not start with the ability to wield a lightsaber well

In the same way that if you're not a terrible player your force user shouldn't start out being a grand duellist.

It's mostly that you cannot block blaster bolts without the heightened reflexes considering half of that is accepted to be minor precognition. Really though, depending on species, tech implants, drugs etc it is possible a NFU can keep up with a FU. Frig, if NFU's using regular swords are writing themselves as keeping up with FUers now.. No reason they can't be said to match reflexes with a lightsaber. Accurate? Likely not, but it's the way the board works.

 

[Chiasa Kritivaas]

That said if you're brave enough to play a NFUer and you want a lightsaber, hit me up, feth it. I'll make you one and handwave that I trained you. Whatevs. You're in for a world of pain anyway.

 

[Nyxie]

Now, now, there should be no encouragement of handwaving. Really, all the training thread does is show someone's IC grasp of the concept of saber combat so that they don't basically godmod safe, proficient use of one of the "deadl[iest] weapons in the galaxy." It's just one thread, no lower limit, it's easy.

I meant to say "the Force -or- thorough training" in my first post.

 

[Chiasa Kritivaas]

Considering Masters on the board who play as being the best in their field will outright boast that they've done no training threads and still think they ought to win... I have no problem going 'And then Chiasa trained you for a couple hours and you got the basics so you could go swing your lightsaber around without cutting off your own head'

[member="DarthDraven Lord of Draven"]

 

[Nyxie]

[member="Chiasa Vereen"]

Yes, but as the saying goes, "two wrongs don't make a right." You can't aid the problem by propagating it, the same way you can't break an addiction by feeding it.

 

[Rusty]

I stopped smoking by switching to a vape, which is the very definition of breaking an addiction by feeding it.

I don't think anyone here is arguing that a noob is going to swing a light stick around with anything resembling skill. The argument is that saying they can't have it at all is pointless.

 

[Chiasa Kritivaas]

You also can't expect people to stick to a character that already gets screwed over by the mentality that Force Users can't lose to then have to do a bunch more dev than any FUer character is expected to do to get the same thing with reduced results.

Which is basically what is currently required.

So my offer stands

[member="DarthDraven Lord of Draven"]

 

[Nyxie]

The argument is that saying they can't have it at all is pointless.

The problem is this is not even the case.

I stopped smoking by switching to a vape, which is the very definition of breaking an addiction by feeding it.

Those are still bad for your health, and some leave residue in your lungs. The morale of the story being, don't trade one evil master for another.

 

[Nyxie]

All I'm going to say on the subject of how Force Users and non-Force users can be comparable is that people should be using good sense and judgement, and there is no substitute for that. Yes, a FU can develop and wield the same cortosis vibrosword an NFU can. Yes, that same FU can have a ten-man commando squad just like that NFU has. The point is that people should not be "min/max-ing" these things and realize that it is not a competition but a story, and sometimes a FU with mastery of all forms and a small army of troops and gadgets at their disposal just isn't reasonable (or even realistic) story for the setting and characters.

Non-Force users should work to be even slightly as proficient as a trained Force User is with a lightsaber or similar weapon, but they're also able to bring a lot more to the table, and most people respect that balance.

 

[Jsc]

The rule as it was originally intended was to ensure that non-force users received training before hefting the magic space wizard sword.

Do you still believe such an intention is worth providing a whole rule over? Especially given our modern environment, zero enforcement towards new character profiles, and with such poor wording to the ruling itself? Mm. I wonder. Semantics of fantasy swords aside, would Admin Sarge have ever enforced this?

Nah. My moneys on no. So the rule should probably go.