A solution to Map Overcrowding!

[RC 212]

Surprise Attacks!

I know I didn't quite grasp the full concept of the rules when I launched one prematurely just last week but this got me thinking and thinking hard.

You see when one faction wants to attack another they have to sit down and talk it out. One faction can even deny an Invasion and to me that is just ridiculous. Here's my rationale a real life scenario or even in the Movies did one side ever say, "Hey bud, just dropping by to attack you soon are you okay with that?"

This could in fact be a saving grace to map over crowding.

There are ways to implement a surprise attack rule that would help to mix things up and maybe break stalemate and ties. If faction A wants to hit faction X, but faction X refuses the invasion time and time again it comes down to a stalemate.

Maybe faction X is scared they don't actually have the members to combat faction A?

That's war, numbers and element of surprise. It would be unfair for a faction to simply continue to refuse attack in my eyes simply because they, "Don't feel like it," or are "Not ready."

The rule states that each faction has 72 hours to collect five writers per side I believe, or the battle is auto won by the side that has the most members. But yet you have to sit and talk things out?

Here is a solution I came up with that could be added as a special rule

The Surprise Attack

A surprise attack can be launched against another faction at any time. However in the event that one is the Defending Faction reserves several rights that give them the element of advantage.

Defending Faction will have to rally five writers within seventy two hours or else they forfeit the planet.

Defending faction will be allowed to set the following conditions

-Victory objectives for the attackers to complete to win the battle
-Fleet size- both sides will have the same fleet limit
- Ally count- Both sides will have the same ally count.

These will be set within the first 48 hours by the faction staff.

The attacking faction must give three victory objectives for the defenders to complete to knock them out of the fight at the start of the battle.

Edit: If an invasion is already in progress Surprise attacks may not be made, thus insuring that factions may not "Zerg Rush" or "Gang war" other factions.

Edit: 120 hours to collect five players for each side: To ensure fairness and planning time

Edit: One surprise attack may be launched per every month or two months.

This system has an advantage for defenders, so they wont feel like they are being steam-rolled. In addition this allows a lightning fast attack to be set in motion by factions that have been stalemated with each-other over time, with very little need to actually negotiate.

Hell you could even give more advantage to the defenders like in the classic game of Risk, and give them extra ally slots, or a choice to bump up their fleet numbers by a certain capped amount.

As long as both sides are equal during the Invasion it should conceivably work.

I mean after all, the galaxy is moving as RL is moving. It does not seem legit to pick and choose your battles, in war sometime battles just happen. If you are not prepared, you will certainly be crushed. May the best faction prevail!

Also this opens up the floor for even more diplomatic relations, non aggression treaties, defensive pacts etc, and make the feel of danger ever more real.

This was my solution to the full map reset, to combat stagnation.

Questions or Comments?

What do you think?

 

[Keanu Shan]

that is an incredible idea and i approve completely. it would definitely spice things up and we could have an ope war instead of this slow drug out conflict were nothing will ever happen.

 

[Viktor Romanov]

DEATH STAR

 

[Darth Carnifex]

I swear something like this went about over a year or so ago, and then was just phased out for various reasons.

Then again, I could be talking out of my ass.

 

[Ellie Mors]

That's war, numbers and element of surprise. It would be unfair for a faction to simply continue to refuse attack in my eyes simply because they, "Don't feel like it," or are "Not ready."

So what you're saying is you approve of the notion of every faction striking at one faction together at once on every front because "this is war and it's unfair to simply refuse attacks because they're not ready"?

That is literally why a faction must accept the terms. I'm sure you probably haven't been here long enough to witness it, but there was a while ago that a big controversy over multiple invasions being set on one faction all happened at the same time. As much as I enjoy an invasion, probably moreso than most people on the board, I do not agree with the notion that it would ever be okay to attack another faction and/or player whenever one feels like it because they feel it isn't fair that they could not do so before, just as one cannot simply start a duel thread and expect another player who does not want to participate to enter in said duel for whatever reasons. If this is about the archived invasion that I saw the other day, then perhaps it is because they are currently facing another invasion from another front and feel they cannot handle two invasions at the same time.

Invasions are planned in OOC, not IC, between factions. You can still agree upon the element of surprise in your talks, you can still work out everything that was mentioned above, you do not need to have a special clause in the rules to allow you to go above the effort of talking and discussion to steamroll a faction that may already be engaged in an invasion with other factions.

And yes, I'm speaking in defense of the Republic - assuming that was what this discussion was about.

 

[Thurion Heavenshield]

Then again, I could be talking out of my ass.

Wouldn't be the first time.

But what an ass it is!

 

[RC 212]

[member="Darth Vitium"]

I feel like that was a very harsh response.

Yes and no. The thought was inspired by the thread yes, but in all honestey the thread was not made out malevolence. Nor was this thread. Don't get me wrong this was not made to point the finger at anyone or to trash a staff decision or etc. This was simply an idea I had come up with over long musings and such. A secondary way to spice up the back and forth rather than just static slow wars.

I am glad you brought up that point about Zerg rushing invasions as it is a hole that I did not see in the overall scheme of things. I have been here since Oct 2013 and have seen a lot of things. My activity while on deployment six months ago to two months ago was spotty at best however which explains why I missed this.

The fix would be this, If one faction was currently involved in an invasion, surprise attacks would not be allowed against that faction. Simple enough and it put's down the iron curtain on the Zerg rush.


I'll update it above in red.

Thanks and sorry again if I ticked you off, please know this was not my intent to tick people off.

 

[Jsc]

Surprise Attack -> Lack of resistance -> Auto Winning -> No PvP -> Not really the point.

IMO: The Map exists to create fun and dramatic PvP oppurtunities to the community. How you determine 'fun' and 'dramatic' are matters of perspective. Thusly, members talk about it first. They decide upon a schedule, dates, considering people and timing, participation, tech used, storylines, fleets, etc.

I know it's annoying. Compromise sucks. But this is not about winning. It's not about actually 'owning' anything. It is about having fun. And 'fun' is recognized differently for everybody. So we compromise and meet in the middle. We talk about it before we fight. And, the more people we throw at the Map? The more complicated 'meeting in the middle' becomes.

It was an excellent idea. Full of merit and real-world enterprise. But this community may not be at a point where we can embrace it. Yet...

Keep up the good work! The day when this becomes a thing, may be just around the corner. *wink*

 

[Ellie Mors]

[member="Colap Ticon"]
It was meant to be harsh to ensure you noticed the point and understood the consequences of the idea. A surprise attack idea would be a wonderful idea if not for the fact that every faction that wishes to dogpile another would simply wait for the other invasions to end to consecutively strip away their morale and resources until said faction ceases to exist.

I also mentioned the thread because I saw it in the archives the other day and had no idea when there was another invasion going on between the two and by reading this I drew a conclusion on why this was being suggested to begin with. I have no doubt that you didn't mean to strike out at the Republic in any form of distasteful feelings or goals.

As [member="Jay Scott Clark"] mentioned above, and as I mentioned before, this would only result in the erosion of any faction that may be considered a "greater" threat to any one or more factions.

What is there to stop a faction from repeatedly performing a surprise attack anyways?

 

[Quietus]

I don't actually believe that a faction can "refuse" an Invasion.

Pretty sure they can't.

As in, they can't come right out and say "No, we don't want to do an invasion so you can't do it."

They can, however, slow down the negotiation process by being non-communicative, belligerent, and overall uncompromising, which is where you bring in an RPJ if you feel they are doing it on purpose.

I'm taking this from the perspective of the Invasion launched against the Horde last year, where the Horde's FO attempted to tell me they wouldn't do an invasion and were told there was no such rule to stop us. Merely that we had to come to terms on negotiations.

So, not sure where you're getting the idea that you can simply deny an invasion, unless a new rule was implemented that I was not aware of.

As a side note - I am the one that reported the surprise invasion under my GR alt. There was no malice meant to it, it was simply reported for failure to follow the rules of negotiation and the Republic had no intention of saying you couldn't do the invasion, we just wanted the same rules and respect to be granted to us that we have been given from both the One Sith and another major faction already.

 

[RC 212]

[member="Jay Scott Clark"]

Auto winning honestly was already written into the rules here.

2. Both factions must have a minimum of 5 members per side. If either faction cannot meet this requirement within 72 hours of the beginning of the invasion, that faction forfeits.

[member="Darth Vitium"]

That's another Valid point. I guess the point would be that there wouldn't be any detriment to stop surprise attacks. In fact it would add more element to the story, and with the defenders favoured over the attackers it would really come down to the story itself.

Who says the defenders will lose over and over and over?

The outcome is never clear, but the future is more liquid.

If it was really a bad issue you could implement that each faction shall only have one surprise attack monthly, or bi monthly. However long staff feels they need to make them wait in order to stop a repeated abuse.

 

[Jsc]

It was meant to be harsh to ensure you noticed the point and understood the consequences of the idea.

Erm. I don't mean to talk over you Vitium, but Colap? I think what she means is that, this has been practiced in the past with, erm, dramatic? /(maybe not best word) results. Butt hurt and the like. You know what I'm saying.

And that negative energy creates an emotional center for people. A connection to an idea. It doesn't have to be a rational emotion? It just has to stick. ...So when a similar idea pops up! So do those negative emtions.

See what I'm saying? Nobody on this site means to be harsh, or mean, or diblitating. But we're all human and we all attach emotions to ideas. It's a part of who we are. So? If you are feeling negative energy flowing your way, or somebody is being harsh about an idea? It's not you. It's just a repurcussion about being human.

You're all good bro. Great idea and it was brave to just run up there and suggest it. Real, proven leadership. Powerful. You. ...So yeah. Congrats on suggesting a great idea and being priviledged to recieve so much feedback, so quickly. It is a merit to who you are and what you want to accomplish.

Cheers. You'll do great.

 

[Grrwunhoooll Agaburry]

I remember i was in group trying something like this and it turned out bad.

 

[RC 212]

[member="Quietus"]

I attempted so set up just such a scenario. It was quikcly locked and archived by the staff. This leads me to believe that this rule does in fact exist. There are different interpretations of it I am sure, here was what I was presented with.

Before an Invasion begins, Faction Leaders must convene to discuss how the Invasion will be handled by both sides to account for fairness and balance. If a compromise cannot be reached please consult a Role-play Judge.

 

[Quietus]

Indeed, and that rule pertains to before the IC invasion is launched/posted.

While there are no set rules to how negotiations must be handled, it is common courtesy and common etiquette to do so through PM where the Admins of the factions can do so in privacy without having to deal with ... distractions and interruptions from the entirety of their faction memberbase (which can and does prolong the negotiations).

 

[Ellie Mors]

[member="Colap Ticon"]
What that means is that before you post an invasion thread, you must first go to the faction staff of said faction and let them know you are planning an invasion. Have a discussion over whether this is a surprise attack or not, etc, and if they feel a surprise attack would not be possible (for example a surprise attack on Coruscant, which would be literally almost impossible to perform) then you need to respect the notion that a surprise attack would not be possible. Simply because it is a surprise for OOC does not mean it can be a surprise in IC. That is why that rule is set in place. And if it's an outlying world, as was the world the RR tried to take in that mentioned thread, then you can argue that it would not be likely for them to anticipate it with their concerns elsewhere (the Sith) and such, and contact an RPJ to have things pushed along smoothly and ensure things are done right.

That is what I meant by proper discussion.

The difference between Chaos and the Real World is that OOC (Out-Of-Character) exists to communicate things so that others may properly react to a situation. Simply creating a surprise attack rule would not solve the issue of factions ignoring pleas for invasions - it would eventually get overturned after complaints that capital worlds are being constantly put under siege by surprise invasions and it would all be for naught.

Again, I appreciate the idea, and with the correction you've made that is a good step in a better direction, but you need to take more than just the fact that it is war as reasoning for invasions.

 

[Ashin Varanin]

Skirmishes are open threads with no rules. Surprise annihilate everything you want, just label it Skirmish.

 

[Ak'lya]

No, for a multuide of reasons.

How on earth is this fair to anyone but the attacker? You could make it near impossible to defend the planet, and "forget" to tell people of it, and win by forfeit rule. Not at all gonna happen.

 

[The Red of Sinner]

[member="Jay Scott Clark"]

Jay....I never see you thread.....THIS SADDENS ME! WE MUST THREAD! I feel like you're just this presence here that helps solve problems, which is cool, I just wish to have your CS and see who Jay is...Tinkerbell!!! XD MUST< TAKE>>>TEH TINKERBELL!!!

 

[RC 212]

[member="Shule Windspeaker"]

Interesting thing is, I've had this also happen to me. Where another RPer decided they didn't want to skirmish after I started a thread and let them know.