Advanced Tech Proliferation: A Discussion on Bad Habits

[Julius Sedaire]

Ijaat made stupid krunk tech... I taught and influenced others to... And then I realized I couldn't go to a fight without dragging 20 subs with me, and that the subs had become his focus, rather than the RP and story. And so he is shelved, until I can fix his story. I just submitted a race for this character that is pretty much crafting centric. But it's not to flood the Factory with +5 Flaming Swords of Evil Evilness.... I just want to tool around and be the crazy engineer/smith guy and such. I doubt you'll see a ton of subs that are game breaking. I also stay the eff away from mass produced things like ships and tanks and such because they are a part of that.

TL;DR - When I first came to Chaos, the Factory is what pulled me here. I loved making custom tech. People who wrote some of the 'cool' stuff like [member="Ayden Cater"] and [member="Rave Merrill"] are the ones where I think i've read every sub they've posted a couple of times, to get ideas. And i've mellowed from my tech obsessed ways, honest. But if the Goat is telling us tech is getting too far out, that might should be a wake up call.

 

[Ellie Mors]

I am totally okay with people using exotic equipment and materials, but they should be the exception, not the rule. But I can't make people stop subbing what they want.

 

[Ayden Cater]

To be clear, I'm not at all against innovation and clever designs. I've certainly had a lot of time in the factory making new designs and coming up with new ideas for things.

My argument, and I use the term in the more academic definition than the commonplace one, is that it's not really innovation to take the most overpowered (and I use that term intentionally and consciously) tech you can and stuff it onto everything under the sun.

There are two kinds of innovation; natural and artificial. Natural innovation is all about choice, design. How do I take the common blocks of what's already used and do better with it? A clear example of natural innovation is the sloped wedge design of Star Destroyers vs traditional "boxy" ships. By sloping the hull of the ship, the weapon emplacements can retain defensive elements while retaining the ability to fire past one another. If the hull of the ship were even, turrets would have to be elevated to fire past one another, which would make them more vulnerable to enemy fire.

Artificial innovation relies static elements. To pick on molecular shielding some; take aside cost to manufacture, molecular shielding is in every way better than standard deflector shields. They both prevent damage, but molecular shielding allows energy from the enemy fire to be utilized for your own purposes. Artificial innovation is toxic because once it starts, it's difficult to stop.

As [member="Menka Guga"] pointed out, she felt as if she had to place molecular shielding on her tech just to stay competitive and relevant. That's toxic, and that actually reduces innovation as it removes design choices from operation.

Natural innovation is healthy and should be encouraged. It promotes diversity and can help forge design identities for a faction. Artificial innovation is all about removing elements in a design, reducing diversity. Natural innovation can be beaten by natural innovation and artificial innovation. Artificial innovation can only be beaten by itself.

 

[Darth Metus]

It's a cycle that has no end in sight.

So long as there is any faction or individual with a hyper competitive streak, Canon will be exploited in order to make the very best that no one ever was. Then the next factions will do the same, not because of a toxic desire to exploit canon, but rather to stay alive in a PvP situation when faced with the aforementioned tech.

Then the cycle goes on and on and on until you end up feeling like you -have- to sub exotic tech as standard just to survive. You end up feeling like you -have- to walk around with 18 subs linked in your signature just to get by.

It's a rare day that I 110% agree with the Goat, but that day is today. It's gotten outta hand.

 

[Jsc]

[member="Ayden Cater"]

I'd similar this to the escalation of Force Powers. The more ridiculous you get, the more people you will lose as RP partners. However, rather than ask the community to tone it down. I'd start a discussion that proves the pros-and-cons of building 'competitive' tech.

One might start with discussing how 'competitive' tech is almost never required, to be competitive. One might also continue by mentioning that the more 'competitive' your tech, the more ridiculously overzealous and unhealthy your team begins to appear. Finish this all up with a note about new players to the Factory. People, unlike Ayden, who are jumping in at the deep end of a massive pool of information, escalation, and history. Remember that while factory veterans might understand the lessons and the morals behind The Map Game and 'competitive' tech? New players to the Factory will almost always have to learn these lessons the hard way.

To close. Yeah Mr Goat. It's pretty weird sometimes. But I always look at these things as IC opportunities to show the tech-junkies that their subs don't really matter all that much to the nature of the game. Sometimes it's all a matter of attitude and perspective.

 

[Darth Ferus]

The Death Star was considered an impervious space station that simply couldn't be destroyed. Yet it had a huge weakness that was easily exploited.

I like tech that seems impossible to defeat. That's what star wars us about, facing greater odds and finding the way to come out on top. I think people should remember that everything has a weakness, and the stronger it is, the more destructive the weakness can be.

 

[LaoTzu]

It's really about the shiny and godmoding as much as a person can and not the content of the post.

Allegedly.

At least from my perspective. I could be mistake.

 

[Ellie Mors]

It's really about the shiny and godmoding as much as a person can and not the content of the post.
Allegedly.
At least from my perspective. I could be mistake.

Not sure if sarcasm or...

 

[Shawn Withers]

Simplicity is the best policy.

A normal lightsaber will work just as well, and sometimes even better than all the fancy ones.

I mean, sure its great to have one with all the bells and whistles and I am not innocent of not making one in my past. But one thing is for sure, every lightsaber I have made was made for a purpose. A story line that represents something. Not just because, "Mine is bigger and shiney."

 

[Ellie Mors]

The Death Star was considered an impervious space station that simply couldn't be destroyed. Yet it had a huge weakness that was easily exploited.

I like tech that seems impossible to defeat. That's what star wars us about, facing greater odds and finding the way to come out on top. I think people should remember that everything has a weakness, and the stronger it is, the more destructive the weakness can be.

Sure. But the Death Star had an exhaust vent that led directly to its reactor, please show me one example (that isn't the star destroyer I submitted earlier this year) with a weakness comparable to that.

This discussion isn't being had about people who make a few unique subs that have big glaring weaknesses, which I would hope a superweapon like the Death Star would have, but about the over-saturation of advanced equipment, i.e; Molecular shielding, (I'd say proton beam cannons, but they aren't used often at all), gravity bombs, and excessive armaments.

---

This is an intervention, please stop trying to bombard submissions with the highest-end equipment you can find at the highest production possible armed to the tooth.

 

[Darth Kentarch]

Proliferation, a wonderful word. Reminds me of Nuclear Proliferation. Or even an arms race.

See what happens is an invasion, say between the GR and OS (as an example). One side, say the GR, has developed a advanced tech tank that resists normal anti-tank weapons. So the response from a player in the OS is develop a better tank with better armor and a better gun. This in turn causes GR person to develop an even more advance tank, and it just becomes a vicious cycle to the point where you need several source pages to pull up to understand what the kark is going on with some of the stuff coming out of the factory. Arguments break out about the freaking tech and development behind them, more people get involved. Blah blah blah, blah blah blah, blah blah, blahhhh.

But there is a key thing, its a cycle. You might be able to argue the competitive nature of invasions fuels this. Cause you know if we use the tank on tank example, the best or most advance tech submission has a strong advantage on getting a win. So you need tank with a submission that has elite gear, advanced armor, etc etc.

The question is now what it takes to end this 'bad habit' and who is going to draw a line OOC in the factory and make it stop? Who is going to make it a standard?

 

[Darth Ferus]

[member="Bianca"]

Alright, I guess.

I mean, if you look at the real world, advancements are constantly being made each and every day to get the better ship, better gun, better armor. So I don't really see the issue. Then again, I haven't really gone crazy with this to my knowledge, or perhaps I have and it just isn't a bad thing to me. I dunno, but time will tell.

 

[Kei Amadis]

As well as tech balancing tech, which is what I like to dev, counters. What most people miss is the secondary reason for the tech, tech balances force powers as a counter.

[member="Shawn Withers"]

It really won't, I see sabers get taken out all the time in rp duels, if you don't dev the hilt with something sturdy you need a secondary weapon, or a good backup of force powers.

I rarely target saber hilts in a duel because they are easy targets if I am honest, unless my guy is outmatched or wounded then he'll get creative to even it.

-edit
@All
Though isn't this part of the fun of the factory, deving creative counters or seeing creative things people come up with. If any one tech is unbalanced, then flag it, and get some weaknesses in there.

 

[Rusty]

Time marches on. That is the one rule that we all are subject to, and sites like Chaos are no exception.

By allowing custom technology, you guarantee an arms race. People will always try to make more and better ships, weapons, whatever. There's really nothing you can do to stop it, short of putting a stranglehold on tech submissions. And frankly, that's a stupid idea. Let the folks who enjoy this sort of thing have at it. The Factory is here to make sure it's balanced. That's their job.

If you don't want to write stories with the folks in the arms race, don't. There's plenty to see and plenty to do. In the mean time, tempus is going to keep on fugiting. No point in trying to stop it.

 

[Shawn Withers]

[member="Kei Amadis"], I have seen alot cut in half myself. Done it a few times, and been on the receiving end. Honestly I just have the generic lightsabers and "build" my next one via Handwave. But if I put time and effort into building it, making threads for it and making it special, then I am without a doubt going to beef it up a little more to prevent it from being on the receiving end of the lightsaber strikes.

However, there are some times where I don't because its used as a story piece, and I don't intend to keep it for the long haul. Not sure if I said it in my earlier post, but each thing should be made for a specific situation. OR be made as a Jack of all trades. Some people just don't understand that if you make it a Jack of all trades, it won't stand up to EVERYTHING, it will only stand up to a small percentage of ALOT of things. Where as situationial items and gear are IMHO better to use because once the situation arises, you will be ahead of the game.

 

[LaoTzu]

[member="Bianca"]

Yes, it was at least 80% sarcastic mixed with 20% truth. I think it is an arms race for the best possible (insert item, gear or whatever) while thinking that by means of being a gear whore or having a gear level of 315 they can magically do the raid at that point in time.

The issue is thus not the gear nor the raid. It is in thinking that a person needs something to make their character perfect or in fact make their character perfect. In my opinion, that is incorrect because of two things. The first being the concept of having a character or item/whatever being "perfect" or a Mary Sue (a character more so). And second is the lack of imperfections, uniqueness and lack of originality because item/person is perfect they can do everything (even if it is in a given area) perfectly all the time regardless of the situation. And life, if anything, tends to through curve balls and incomplete situations that can test even the most grizzled veteran.

The Raid, in this case, can be used to mean the story or what ever the character or item/thingy does or chooses to do. With that in mind, one could so far to say that choices made by characters on sites such as this would not nearly have the access to stuff as the writers do and thus the writers can make better choices for them based completely on more knowledge and breaking that fourth wall not completely. Thus a writer who has done the raid the most and/or has the most amount of characters has the most access to gear, and influence upon the system/game. And so, I feel as though there should not be a gear grind and more end game content, to put it in mmorpg terms. This end game content would of course vary from person to person, but I think an aspect of it would be a few things starting with "Why do I, as a writer/person at an intimate level/ post on this site in particular? And oh look Fallout 4/newest game/school/work/life.....wait what was I doing on this site in particular with charrie 1 or was that charrie 38282 in particular?" And so this end game content, to a degree is what justifies why a person would return (and continue) and another aspect being "What keeps me here, posting?"


TLDR: People do what that want and want shiny. I'm hungry now and is going for breakfast. I think this is my longest post on this site, so far at least.