Discussion about Dev threads and the Factory

[Danger Arceneau]

Just continuing the conversation here.
[member="Ordo"] [member="Raziel"] [member="Darth Janus"] [member="Tefka"]

Ordo

If we make devs norm, which I don't mind at all, we would still have to judge the item and then the dev thread will have to be judged as "enough" or "insufficient" for each sub. But that is just pointing out the obvious. When it comes down to brass tacks we're still going to freaking wing it and make educated guesses about what should and what should not be approved.

Raziel

But then I suppose my example might not even be valid.

If someone instantly ports a holocron into their hands, they still have to write about training in the skills.



Quote
If we make devs norm, which I don't mind at all, we would still have to judge the item and then the dev thread will have to be judged as "enough" or "insufficient" for each sub. But that is just pointing out the obvious.

It's a good point though. Saying to someone "Your dev thread isn't enough work" is probably as disheartening as saying they need to add one to a sub!

 

[Mrrew]

If dev threads are required for everything, then even the minute thing will need a descriptive thread... It's a good way to discourage factory submissions, but people are going to be annoyed as hell when they do have to make something, for companies and the like.

 

[Delila Castillon]

I'm currently in a few dev threads for my alt. They can be very useful(especially in the case of companies) but I am not sure everything requires a dev thread. Most submissions? Yes.


I do foresee problems with folks having to have dev threads and a judge ruling against their thread. Especially if they perceive that the work is more than sufficient. However on the same hand it would cut down joke submissions, throwaway submissions, ill-thought out tech and the like. This is good to keep the clutter and wait times down in the Factory.

 

[Mrrew]

Most submissions? Sure.

All submissions? Riots. A lot of riots.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

Over reliance on dev threads is dangerous.

As I said in the thread where the tech factory was closed, it's also dangerous for us judges. If we start asking for dev threads as a crutch for our own uncertainty we're just going to annoy people.

Now tech and starships are closed there should be very few cases where they are required. Large military bases, bio-engineered species, dev threads for company advancement and expansion.
If we ask for more than that it starts to get annoying for the writer.

 

[Danger Arceneau]

Well think of the usuals with dozens of blasters and rifles.

I honestly think no tech sub should even be required for a lightsaber unless it has restricted materials that require a Dev thread anyways.


Like how about we list what DOESNT require a Dev thread?


Another thought.

A Dev thread at minimum is 10 posts --- and if we do basic things with no restricted items, nothing can only considered rare or hard to find, doesn't require a specialist--- I think this can be done for a basic item to be put in the factory. Ten posts really isn't hard to do.

Say it has restricted items? Isn't there a limit with how many there can be? Say it's one specific restricted item requires 10 quality posts that pertain SPECIFICALLY to the crafting, creation , and development of the item. No fluff posts that are just I dunno someone doing a romance. That doesn't count.

The more restricted items there are, the more you'll have to add in terms of quality posts specific to the creation only --ie add 10 more posts consecutive of the original 10 required for two restricted items.

And so forth.

Same can be said for ships... Maybe base it by type ie. Civilian, combat , and then flagship Dev threads each requireing a set amount as a basis -- with 10 Dev thread creation specific posts based on what added things you may add that may be considered rare.


Ie basic Dev thread for flagship is 60 - then add in + 10 for stealth , +10 for beskar Etc --- for a total of 80 posts?



I dunno just an idea. But it can be a bit of numbers.

 

[Ordo]

I honestly think we will have to rely on a bit of commonsense and just handle each sub as it comes. I agree with a dev requirement for most ships, and tech but if we make the number of post too solid we run the risk of people speeding through 10, 20, 100 post of junk that has nothing to do with the submission overall. I am just spit balling here but the Dev requirement will help cut things back but like I said before if we do 100% devs we run into the problem of judging people's writing, and that will cause much whining.

 

[Ordo]

However on the same hand it would cut down joke submissions.

Never underestimate the determination of Ordo when he decides to be a fool.

 

[Delila Castillon]

[member="Ordo"]


Hey, you're the one wasting time on it, not me When is that toaster with AI going to be available? I want one.

 

[Ordo]

[member="Delila Castillon"]

I need a dev thread... :mellow:

 

[Ilias Nytrau]

[member="Delila Castillon"] [member="Ordo"]

Hear, hear! WHERE'S TALKIE TOASTER?

Now on to the subject of this thread!

Making development threads a requirement where it makes sense to do so, and otherwise on a case-by-case basis where they are judged to be needed is probably the best balance. All or nothing will not fly very well here, in my opinion.

I suppose that's the entirety of my $0.02

 

[Danger Arceneau]

[member="Ilias Nytrau"] [member="Delila Castillon"] [member="Mrrew"] [member="Ordo"] [member="Darth Janus"] @Raziel

Perhaps i should have tossed this in for the others to know in context

A quote by Tef which started this entire conversation:

Tefka
Sent 01 October 2014 - 06:17 PM


Quote

By Raziel

If the message gets across re: "You don't have to submit everything" do you envisage us having less of a burden than before?

I don't think most people I've spoken too have actually got that notion yet, not sure if that's because of who I spoke to. If it is the case I'm not sure what the answer is!

That's not something we can control or should focus on.

As far as managing the Factory goes once it's opened, I'm focused on 1) Ease of Use, 2) Scrapping Useless Rules, 3) Solidifying How To Judge Entries, and 4) Bringing Factory Judges out of this competitive niche that we've seemed to have imparted on the Factory.

The Factory should not be competitive, and it should not be difficult to judge. And we should not be pressing dev threads on people "when we feel like it". It should be autonomous. The reason I've removed most Factory Judges is because this lesson is increasingly difficult to impart to people set in their ways. I picked you and Ordo because you're least susceptible to sticking to your guns on the old ways. Mainly because you're new.

I'm honestly leaning towards either "No Development Threads" or "Development Threads For Everything" or "Development Threads For Only Specific Items." It should, again, not be the Judge's decision when to enforce a dev thread. The player should know whether they need one or not prior.

 

[Delila Castillon]

It should, again, not be the Judge's decision when to enforce a dev thread. The player should know whether they need one or not prior.

This is a good point. For example, I just asked Corek to do a dev thread in the Codex for his submission due to the high number of weapons. I sat and thought about it for a minute, wondering if he really needed one. Ships pass through the Factory all the time with X number of weapons, why not a safehouse? Either way, I went on the side of caution and requested one anyways.


My point is it can be incredibly difficult when to ask for a dev thread. Just because I request one doesn't mean the other judge would have just passed it through on a similar sub. This really does lead to hurt feelings in the community because some folks perceived being targeted or picked on by the judges or SWRP. Whatever is done certainly has to be universal and very clear cut.

 

[Caulder Dune]

Dev threads for everything in the factory. I don't think it should be for anything in the codex.

 

[Noah Corek]

Alright, a newly minted judge throwing his two cents in. I personally believe that the dev thread system we have in place right now is pretty good and making people do a dev thread for every little thing would just be overkill and make us factory judges look lazy and incompetent. It would also discourage the use of the factory.

 

[Ilias Nytrau]

[member="Danger Arceneau"]

I see. Well, for the sake of simplicity, clarify what specific items/situations need development threads, so the submitting populace is aware in advance. Otherwise...

...evaluate as we go - this concept is woven into the very way this site is run. It is not possible, as it were, to conceive of a 'rule' for every instance... or in this case, a development thread for every possibility that might genuinely need it in the overwhelming majority of instances. Run with what we know needs it, note the requirement in templates where necessary. This appears to be what is being driven for, putting as much of the information as possible into the templates, which in turn makes the process of creation very clear and simple for the submitters. Then if/when it is found that something really should require a development thread, it is discussed as everything is, a decision is made, and the 'public' is notified.

For example, the species template states -

History: [Describe an abridged history. If your species is genetically engineered or Sithspawn, this is where to add links to the thread(s) where your new species was developed. A development thread, whether of creation or discovery, is required for all genetically engineered/alchemically created life forms being submitted to the Factory.]

- so it would be something like this, I think.

 

[J3C0]

Alright, a newly minted judge throwing his two cents in. I personally believe that the dev thread system we have in place right now is pretty good and making people do a dev thread for every little thing would just be overkill and make us factory judges look lazy and incompetent. It would also discourage the use of the factory.

My god. Someone i agree with.

90% of shit that goes through the factory shouldn't need a Dev Thread. Its on a case by case basis as decided by the judge, and in the past its been too strict. Most things shouldn't need a dev thread, the Factory is there for people to have fun with and catalog some of their items, we shouldn't be trying ti discourage submissions with more work.

 

[Matsu Ike]

I am with Noah and Mierin, factory should have dev threads when needed but not always a requirement. We should want them to have all the fun and only work for their toys if they do more then the basics.

 

[Ordo]

I think you all need a dev thread before you offer any more opinions.

 

[Ellie Mors]

I honestly think that it should be a case-by-case thing. I don't mind if people start to dislike me because I ask for a dev thread on a droid made of mandalorian ore with ultrachrome arms and a complex AI. (Not that every submission is that ridiculous, which is the point.)


Edit: The entire point of it being a case-by-case is to educate people so that they understand when a dev thread should be included on their own, and they understand the nature of the rarity and strengths of the material in their subs.