The Blood Hound
@[member="Marek S'hadar"] @[member="Cavinash"] You let sweet and bubbly appearances deceive you. Evil does not always come with a wrinkly frown 
Star Wars Roleplay: Chaos
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Coci Heavenshield
Dawnguard Grand Master
Good is good - Evil is evil .. and anything in between is where the fun is. They are the 'smokers' of the galaxy (this galaxy or the one not so far far away), the ones condemned to go out the back to puff, but that is where the party is, the interesting people and the good conversation ...
The Lion King
Nobody believes they are the villain, at least not in reality. Emperor Palpatine himself was probably thinking he was doing the right thing when taking over the galaxy with the wish to create supreme order on every world. Hitler believed the same thing... probably. I say "probably" because I don't know if there's any written proof of it, and the movies certainly didn't explain what Palpatine's motives were, but still.
In our everyday world, no-one thinks themself a villain. Robbers and criminals and terrorists all act on their own moral compasses, or religious beliefs or out of desperation. None of them think themselves evil. I guarantee that every villain from any piece of fiction that isn't a children's cartoon see themselves as the good guy, and the protagonist as a constant nuisance trying to destroy their views on how the world should work. I'm sure we all have many examples of where we'd rather the villain of a story prevails over the knight-in-shiny-armor-who-can-do-no-wrong, because that villain is a far more interesting character or his ultimate goals are more worthy to succeed. There are also many examples of tragic villains out there, who was forced into what they were doing because of something terrible having happened in their past - something that completely altered their way of thinking into what we would perceive as "evil".
George Lucas was a crap writer, okay? I think we can all agree to that by now. The prime example of moral ambiguity that comes to my mind is Game of Thrones, where every single character acts on their own morals, be it the Starks, the Lannisters, the Greyjoys or any other house. Every character in that series has clear and relatable motives for what they do and the actions they take, which sometimes lead to good things and sometimes bad things. This means that every character in the books and/or tv-series is very interesting and when you think you have them all figured out, they go ahead and do something you'd never expect them to. They're normal people (most of them) who make incredibly stupid decisions sometimes, but they're all given opportunities to redeem themselves in the eyes of the reader/viewers as well. It's why every can safely say they have a vibrant love/hate relationship with George R R Martin, who penned the books.
This coming from someone who didn't care about anything having to do with Game of Thrones only a few months ago. Now I'm as obsessed as @[member="Lady Kyros"].
So, once again: Nobody. Thinks. They're evil. The Sith least of all, who honestly are just following another set of rules brought on by another way of thinking and through a different religious point-of-view. In "ye old times", Jedi weren't allowed to love - the Sith were. Is love an "evil" emotion? Hardly. But I'm not going to get into the subject of love, because that's another novel in and of its own, and a chapter for smarter people than I to debate on. The world - real or fiction - is not like the saturday morning cartoons you watched as a kid, is all I'm saying.
In our everyday world, no-one thinks themself a villain. Robbers and criminals and terrorists all act on their own moral compasses, or religious beliefs or out of desperation. None of them think themselves evil. I guarantee that every villain from any piece of fiction that isn't a children's cartoon see themselves as the good guy, and the protagonist as a constant nuisance trying to destroy their views on how the world should work. I'm sure we all have many examples of where we'd rather the villain of a story prevails over the knight-in-shiny-armor-who-can-do-no-wrong, because that villain is a far more interesting character or his ultimate goals are more worthy to succeed. There are also many examples of tragic villains out there, who was forced into what they were doing because of something terrible having happened in their past - something that completely altered their way of thinking into what we would perceive as "evil".
George Lucas was a crap writer, okay? I think we can all agree to that by now. The prime example of moral ambiguity that comes to my mind is Game of Thrones, where every single character acts on their own morals, be it the Starks, the Lannisters, the Greyjoys or any other house. Every character in that series has clear and relatable motives for what they do and the actions they take, which sometimes lead to good things and sometimes bad things. This means that every character in the books and/or tv-series is very interesting and when you think you have them all figured out, they go ahead and do something you'd never expect them to. They're normal people (most of them) who make incredibly stupid decisions sometimes, but they're all given opportunities to redeem themselves in the eyes of the reader/viewers as well. It's why every can safely say they have a vibrant love/hate relationship with George R R Martin, who penned the books.
This coming from someone who didn't care about anything having to do with Game of Thrones only a few months ago. Now I'm as obsessed as @[member="Lady Kyros"].
So, once again: Nobody. Thinks. They're evil. The Sith least of all, who honestly are just following another set of rules brought on by another way of thinking and through a different religious point-of-view. In "ye old times", Jedi weren't allowed to love - the Sith were. Is love an "evil" emotion? Hardly. But I'm not going to get into the subject of love, because that's another novel in and of its own, and a chapter for smarter people than I to debate on. The world - real or fiction - is not like the saturday morning cartoons you watched as a kid, is all I'm saying.
Skorn Draclau
The Dragon
i maintain there should be an IC debate on this, cast live to people across the galaxies covered by every Holonet channel and reporter around the board.
The Blood Hound
@[member="Skorn Draclau"] yes yes yes I want my face on the HNN! Where do I sign up? WHERE DO I SIGN UP?!
Ayden Cater
Grumpy Goat
One doesn't have to write a mustache-twirling villain to portray the Dark Side according to canon. Dooku, as we saw, was a (mostly) honorable man whom many would argue was simply rebelling against a perceived failing in the Republic and the Order. Yet he was still clearly a Sith. He was still evil.
When Revan went marching to war, he thought he was doing what was right, what was best for the Republic. And even when he came back as a Sith, he still held some part of himself as justified and right in attacking the Republic. Yet he was still evil.
Jacen pretty much followed the same path as Revan, and we got to see his conversion into a Sith. Unlikepoorly written McGee Anakin Skywalker, Jacen's fall was much slower, and I would argue much more characteristic of a Jedi falling to the Dark Side. Yet you could clearly see that, as time went on, he was willing to do more and more extreme things to accomplish his goal.
When you get down to it, fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. The Dark Side is -not- a peaceful path. It is an easy path, and one that ultimately ends with the corruption of a person. Very few Sith are ever redeemed. Why? Because they hold on to their anger and their hate and that twists them irrevocably. Redemption is a rare and special thing, and perhaps ironically is most easily accomplished when the Dark Sider in question has someone on the other side to give them a moment of clarity and act as their anchor while they fight to free themselves from the Dark Side.
But even then. The Dark Side looms over their head. Forever.
When Revan went marching to war, he thought he was doing what was right, what was best for the Republic. And even when he came back as a Sith, he still held some part of himself as justified and right in attacking the Republic. Yet he was still evil.
Jacen pretty much followed the same path as Revan, and we got to see his conversion into a Sith. Unlike
When you get down to it, fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. The Dark Side is -not- a peaceful path. It is an easy path, and one that ultimately ends with the corruption of a person. Very few Sith are ever redeemed. Why? Because they hold on to their anger and their hate and that twists them irrevocably. Redemption is a rare and special thing, and perhaps ironically is most easily accomplished when the Dark Sider in question has someone on the other side to give them a moment of clarity and act as their anchor while they fight to free themselves from the Dark Side.
But even then. The Dark Side looms over their head. Forever.
Ashin Varanin
Professional Enabler
I recently finished watching Clone Wars for the first time, and between that and the prequel films, the fundamental message is pretty much this:
"The good side blinds itself with hubris, goes after the wrong targets, tramples and exploits others' freedom of choice whenever possible, and sacrifices moral high ground when driven to it by desperate circumstances."
It's impossible to intelligently watch those materials and still think Star Wars is black and white in terms of allegiances. That's a message that was only present in the original films -- and when you realize that Luke is getting a simplified boot-camp version to direct him against the Emperor, things start looking a little fuzzy there too.
Anyone who thinks the Republic and the Jedi are just supposed to be the good guys, period seriously needs to re-watch Star Wars.
"The good side blinds itself with hubris, goes after the wrong targets, tramples and exploits others' freedom of choice whenever possible, and sacrifices moral high ground when driven to it by desperate circumstances."
It's impossible to intelligently watch those materials and still think Star Wars is black and white in terms of allegiances. That's a message that was only present in the original films -- and when you realize that Luke is getting a simplified boot-camp version to direct him against the Emperor, things start looking a little fuzzy there too.
Anyone who thinks the Republic and the Jedi are just supposed to be the good guys, period seriously needs to re-watch Star Wars.
Sic transit gloria mundi
@[member="Ashin Varanin"]
Let's not forget Pultimo and his kill all, burn all, loot all approach to ending the Sith species after the devastation caused by the Great Hyperspace War and the desire to never again have to face the Sith threat. What with Naga Sadow making a star go supernova and all that. It sort of backfired, though for some reason the old Sith needed over a millennia to return (yet another reason for why the Sith Emperor is lame). Well, the Pultimo approach was a very Sio thing to do.
Let's not forget Pultimo and his kill all, burn all, loot all approach to ending the Sith species after the devastation caused by the Great Hyperspace War and the desire to never again have to face the Sith threat. What with Naga Sadow making a star go supernova and all that. It sort of backfired, though for some reason the old Sith needed over a millennia to return (yet another reason for why the Sith Emperor is lame). Well, the Pultimo approach was a very Sio thing to do.
Sarge Potteiger
Emotional Damage
Lol you people
Conceited
None of this matters, the only things canon are the films and TV series.
Ayden Cater
Grumpy Goat
Which is the predominant basis for the argument.
Darth Ferus
Wanderer
Krest has actually been doing that from. .Well when I first read up on the Je'daii. I'd love to see the Je'daii come back.Jared Ovmar said:
Eternal Father
*Slowly twirls mustache while his mooks tie a Princess to some railroad tracks*
Arumi Zy
Jekyll
Star Wars is far from black and white, it's a million shades of gray. In the OT we are told the Rebellion is the good guys, a bunch of teens with no plan of government committing acts of terror, bringing war to the galaxy. Why are they good? Because the killed who knows how many cooks, technicians etc on the Death Star? From the outside looking in in the movies you have The Empire who is promoting law and order, other then Aldeeran you don't see anything evil really. They blew up a planet harboring terrorist trying to end the war and return the galaxy to a state of peace and order.
The Rebels were creating war and death to bring about freedom and liberty. They killed who knows how many people for said peace and freedom. The ends justified the means. The only defined moral is how you see it yourself, if the ends justify the means is it worth it.
CIS wanted freedom away from a bloated and corrupt beauracracy, they seceded and the Republic came in with blood in their sights. It can be argued anyway.
The Jedi fight the sith over a religious dogma. The sith fight the jefi over religious dogma. Revan can be considered good or bad, Krayt good or bad. There is gray in it all.
The Rebels were creating war and death to bring about freedom and liberty. They killed who knows how many people for said peace and freedom. The ends justified the means. The only defined moral is how you see it yourself, if the ends justify the means is it worth it.
CIS wanted freedom away from a bloated and corrupt beauracracy, they seceded and the Republic came in with blood in their sights. It can be argued anyway.
The Jedi fight the sith over a religious dogma. The sith fight the jefi over religious dogma. Revan can be considered good or bad, Krayt good or bad. There is gray in it all.
You'll be fine with me dumping this pot of boiling oil on your head then, right? You relativist.Supreme Overlord Dredge said:
Valiens Nantaris
Head Admin
I have to strongly endorse @[member="Thurion Heavenshield"]'s comments here. They are almost exactly how I would have said it.
Star Wars is at basic a fairly simplistic morality tale, but if you are willing to look beyond that surface you can find new interpretations, especially in the prequels and Clone Wars.
Star Wars is at basic a fairly simplistic morality tale, but if you are willing to look beyond that surface you can find new interpretations, especially in the prequels and Clone Wars.
Lord of Girth
So many views.
Such argument.
Doge.
Good Jedi Doge.
Evil Sith Doge.
Good Sith
Bad Jedi.
Such argument.
Doge.
Good Jedi Doge.
Evil Sith Doge.
Good Sith
Bad Jedi.
A lot of this debate stems from a somewhat other large issue: when the Republic fight the Sith Empire, who is the one taking the the moral high ground? Is the Republic, a collective body of nations similar to the United Nations on Earth where their actions are mandated by world/galactic laws, each planet with their own beliefs and cultures? Or is the Jedi, a religious group with strict moral beliefs and mandates based on those beliefs?
What we see a lot when we have the actions of the Republic faction fighting with "Dark Side" factions or even "gray" factions with Dark Side members is this: "We're the Jedi, we're the Force of Good in the galaxy! They're Dark Siders, our enemies, that means we need to fight them!" Um, no. The Republic is doing the fighting. The Jedi are a seperate entity within the Republic.
So it makes sense when we hear of factions wanting to rebel against the Republic; whenever the "good vs evil" debate is thrown around, its always said that the Republic = The Jedi. This is not the case. If the Jedi wish to go off and fight the Dark Side factions, I strongly suggest they do so as an independent faction; if we want to better represent the Republic, we have to treat it as its meant to be. A political conglomerate, not a religious sect of force-users.
What we see a lot when we have the actions of the Republic faction fighting with "Dark Side" factions or even "gray" factions with Dark Side members is this: "We're the Jedi, we're the Force of Good in the galaxy! They're Dark Siders, our enemies, that means we need to fight them!" Um, no. The Republic is doing the fighting. The Jedi are a seperate entity within the Republic.
So it makes sense when we hear of factions wanting to rebel against the Republic; whenever the "good vs evil" debate is thrown around, its always said that the Republic = The Jedi. This is not the case. If the Jedi wish to go off and fight the Dark Side factions, I strongly suggest they do so as an independent faction; if we want to better represent the Republic, we have to treat it as its meant to be. A political conglomerate, not a religious sect of force-users.
Davin Jusik
TIE Bomber LT- DREX
@[member="Thurion Heavenshield"] @[member="Ashin Varanin"] @[member="Mikhail Shorn"] @[member="Jared Ovmar"]
You four......
All my likes.
I offer up all my characters first borns as tribute.
You four......
All my likes.
I offer up all my characters first borns as tribute.
The Lion King
@[member="Vincent Jusik"] - Please, don't. You'll run out of characters. :3