Incorporating the Sith into the First Order

[Ludolf Vaas]

Greetings, loyal legions of the First Order!

This is a special public service announcement for everyone in the faction.

We are currently experiencing some very exciting times. Our faction has grown exponentially over the last few months. I think it's clear to everyone that we are now a major force on this board. As you may have also heard, the One Sith is officially closing up shop. As well as this, Darth Vornskr's startup faction for Sith, the Black Empire, has been cancelled. What that means for us is that there will be a lot of Sith floating around on the board without a home, and many of them will want to come here.

Given that the Sith are ideological fellow travelers in numerous ways, and their similarities with the Knights of Ren, I would like this to be the faction they come to.

Now, let me be clear. We are and will remain the First Order. We are not going to become the One Sith 2.0. All of us have worked very hard over the last year to build this faction's image and stay true to our original direction, which includes a prominent Imperial flavor at the forefront. I want to assure everyone that if we do incorporate the Sith into our ranks, we will not be losing our branding as, foremost, an Imperial faction in the style of the Galactic Empire and the First Order of the movies.

The second question is - but what about the Knights of Ren? How will the Sith be differentiated from them? This is a question I would like to discuss with all of you. [member="Natasi Fortan"] and I are open to your ideas. Essentially, given that many people have put hard work into developing them, we want the Knights of Ren to retain their unique position here at the First Order. We will not be dissolving the Knights of Ren. Rather, my idea was that the Knights would still occupy their unique position as the most loyal servants of the Supreme Leader, who deify the old Galactic Empire and act almost like the Supreme Leader's personal guard - his most trusted Dark Side warriors. You can almost think of them like the SS, or the Varangian Guard to the Byzantine Emperor, or the Imperial Guard, to use a Star Wars example. I am open to additions and criticisms of this idea.

Now, as to how the Sith will be integrated. I was thinking that as a first step, we could start an IC thread with all the Sith out there who wish to join us. The First Order will offer refuge for any Sith after the One Sith's collapse. Just as a way for all of us to make a bond, in-character, and go from there. Then we can not only see how many Sith we have, but also come to an agreement with the Sith on how they will be integrated into our Order, preferably IC.

Thoughts? Concerns? Please lay them all out here.

 

[Asharad Graush]

Sith should be forced to take an official vow, pledge of allegiance, whatever you want to call it ICly to the Supreme Leader. Whether it's in an official thread or not, if they're operating in the First Order then it should be under the pretense that they pledged to the Supreme Leader. If not, which hunt.

Also that they won't interfere with the Knights of Ren and that Force Users are primarily subject to the Order of Ren rather than the Sith since the First Order should lord hold that power over their new inhabitants.

tbh, if Sith want to join Knights of Ren they should have to renounce the Sith ways, if they're from One Sith, removal of Sith tattoos etc and be considered 'Disciples' of Ren OOC, but IC retain their power / ranks.

 

[Wolf]

I quite like [member="Darth Veles"]' almost associate-type membership, while not being a part of the Knights specifically. I would be open to the First Order calling upon the service of a number of Sith in this way, without a direct Order for them like the Knights, that is, if they don't want to become Knights themselves.

The Supreme Leader will be well aware that these Sith will be coming from a background of selfishness and lust for power, as [member="Asharad Graush"] has suggested they would be expected to take oaths, unless they are in a more contract-type relationship that the First Order would have with bounty hunters etc.

Also, let's say we get such a great flood of Sith characters that the number of Sith exceed the number of Knights of Ren? What then?

 

[Avicus DuSang]

I have no qualms with it as long as they know their place.

 

[Valessia Brentioch]

Sith should be forced to take an official vow, pledge of allegiance, whatever you want to call it ICly to the Supreme Leader. Whether it's in an official thread or not, if they're operating in the First Order then it should be under the pretense that they pledged to the Supreme Leader. If not, which hunt.

Also that they won't interfere with the Knights of Ren and that Force Users are primarily subject to the Order of Ren rather than the Sith since the First Order should lord hold that power over their new inhabitants.

tbh, if Sith want to join Knights of Ren they should have to renounce the Sith ways, if they're from One Sith, removal of Sith tattoos etc and be considered 'Disciples' of Ren OOC, but IC retain their power / ranks.

I have no qualms with it as long as they know their place.

This, all of this.

 

[Asharad Graush]

Also, let's say we get such a great flood of Sith characters that the number of Sith exceed the number of Knights of Ren? What then?

I'd say introduce Sieger Ren as being a powerful Force user, that's even stronger than the NPC Dark Lord of the One Sith.

 

[Cyrus Tregessar]

I imagine the best way to use Sith is to integrate them into the army structure as special operatives. With the note that there's additional jurisdiction by the KoR involved. So they're granted rank, authority, and freedom of movement based on their abilities but subject to an extra-judicial over watch of sorts.

Sort of like Warrant Officers, I suppose. Much like what [member="Wolf"] said.

 

[Sentiri]

I'm not sure there is a good solution to integrate the Sith with the Knights of Ren.

By definition, Sith are self-serving. Regardless of whether they believe there should be an "Order" or not, they all eventually believe that they should be the top of the food chain and will do everything in their power to either get there or, when achieved, keep themselves there. A vicious but, occasionally effective cycle.

On the other hand, the Ren fundamentally all serve their Master: the Supreme Leader. Their own ambition has been replaced by zealous devotion. They are fanatics to myth and legends, even their own Master, Sieger, is, in a way, a myth who is unseen but certainly felt.

Keeping the two groups apart or together is pointless. Interaction will happen regardless of whatever barrier we put between them. Instead, let us demonstrate their differences. I posed the following suggestions to [member="Ludolf Vaas"] and he thought these were worthy of including to the discussion:

1. We all have a decent concept of what being a Sith means. And thanks to the efforts of [member="Wolf"] and [member="Phenex Ren"], we have a good foundation with general ideologies for the Ren, and more and more of IC locations where they may inhabit. But being a Sith is a thing that can be taught. We have no "curriculum" for the Ren. What would a Knight tell a would be Acolyte? What would a Master tell a Knight? What would Sieger himself say to his disciples? These are questions I would love to have answered.

But what about the role of the Sith in relation to the Ren?

2. One of their main differing factors is their reverence of the old. While the Sith insistently desire to prove themselves better than the Sith Masters of old (prove that their own ways are superior), the Ren idolize those who came before. Especially Palpatine. Both are derivative. But how they perceive what came before is starkly contrasted. So let's display that. A holocron would be the most interesting. I am unaware who currently hold Palpatine's holocron. But I feel like a quest to retrieve (steal) it, and then see how the respective Orders use the information within would be a fascinating study in not only Sith vs. Ren, but if the two would be able to function together in a specific task. Other holocrons could be substituted, or even devved as [member="Valessia Brentioch"] did in the Yalara dom, but Palpatine is, without a doubt, the pinnacle.

Just my thoughts as they are now. If I have anything further, I'll let you all know.

 

[Roderik von Brinkerhoff]

One thing I have suggested to [member="Natasi Fortan"] that I will suggest here for [member="Ludolf Vaas"], [member="Aram Kalast"] and everybody else in relation to the Ren and overall Force Users in the First Order is to try and find a way to incorporate something that help to facilitate inter-faction RP. I've been playing the old school TIE Fighter game again recently and was reintroduced to a part of it I had forgotten - the Secret Order that you could rise through the ranks of and eventually become an Emperor's Hand.

With the Ren as kind of the de facto religion/Force cult of the First Order, I was thinking that perhaps they could have a secret group spread throughout the branches of the military/government, striving to find Force Sensitives/Users who have proven themselves supremely loyal, who could be inducted into a little brotherhood.

This would allow for Ren to RP on a greater basis with the Sith/Witches/Dark Jedi/etc that may congregate to the First Order -- while keeping the actual Ren group as cloistered and closed off as necessary, depending on peoples preferences to the Ren's overall eventual presence and interaction level with everyone else.

 

[Darth Veles]

OOCly? Be welcoming and helpful. ICly? Play by our rules or leave.

Rather than the faction adjusting itself to suit the Sith, the Sith should be the ones to adjust to the faction.

Let Sith join, but don't incorporate them in any way. In my opinion, they should not be given any rank, position or authority. It'd also be good if the FO can get rid of them the moment they cause trouble, sever all ties and denounce them. If the Sith wish to attain an IC position, they will have to become a KoR with everything that entails. Act like one and reject the Sith principles, actively adapt and embrace our ways, rules and ideology. Writers should know this is not Sith oriented faction and if they want to play a chaotic evil, genocidal Sith, they need to look for a faction that suits them better in that regard.

While it may sound hash OOCly, IC wise the faction is not about Sith. It is about Imps and KoR, who should always be preferred over Sith. Given the 0S' history of one genocide after another, betraying loyal allies and several coups, all done with no real purpose other than evilz, I believe the FO would be extremely suspicious of any Sith and quick to grab a stick if one approaches. Use them as cannon fodder and disposable tools to further the FO's goals and don't hesitate to kick them out if they become a liability. There really isn't a single IC reason to treat them any better than that.

I like to think that my Veles is ICly tolerated only because he is an Imp himself, his ideology is heavily based on Palpatine's Galactic Empire, and he helps to further the goals of the FO without beating others with his Sith stick. He is useful and asks for nothing in return, thus he is allowed to exist.

And there we go. Not only this further highlights the faction's own and clearly defined identity, it adds a unique flavour and relationship between the FO and its Sith 'allies'.

 

[sabrina]

Ooc you have been welcoming, and I am still feeling my way in this faction.

Icly yes knight of ren are in charge and it should not change, icly banshee was a fanatic at one point, so she won't be joining them.

Though we can still be useful, as we can teach as long as we don't get involved in rens doctrine. Also we can join the military or government, in some roles.

Though at moment I am still finding my feet, so I don't want to over reach myself. So feel free to ignore my comments, but please correct me so I know where I stand.

 

[Wolf]

Given the 0S' history of one genocide after another, betraying loyal allies and several coups, all done with no real purpose other than evilz, I believe the FO would be extremely suspicious of any Sith and quick to grab a stick if one approaches. Use them as cannon fodder and disposable tools to further the FO's goals and don't hesitate to kick them out if they become a liability. There really isn't a single IC reason to treat them any better than that.

This.

First Order principles are inherently critical and distrustful of Sith, given their selfish and power-hungry nature.

I agree with [member="Darth Veles"] completely.

There shouldn't be some official ranking structure or separate organisation for Sith. OOCly we can of course still handle Force rank promotions etc. But otherwise they should hold no official IC rank within the faction and be treated with suspicion.

The First Order is supposed to get as far away as possible from the perils and risks of Sith beliefs and the fractures and collapse of empires it causes. Creating some sort of official organisation or power base for them would be taking a large risk in terms of a coup etc. A Sith organisation within the First Order would be a dangerous contingent that would lead to the First Order carrying all the same risks of collapse as any other Sith faction.

The Sith would have to pledge allegiance to the Supreme Leader, and if they wish to have an official rank, must join and submit to the Knights of Ren.

I am unsure of this iteration of the First Order, but Imperial principles have a general distaste of Force users, and would crack down on them. The Knights of Ren are supposed to be the secretive exception to this crackdown on Force users. It would not make IC sense for the First Order to welcome Sith with open arms, at least not publicly. It would be a PR catastrophe, of course, if it got out that Sith are welcomed into the First Order, who in the public eye would be seen as crazed, bloodthirsty and chaotic individuals. (Which for many Sith isn't far from the truth.) Not a good look when the First Order promises and strives for law, order and stability.

I of course see the large OOC opportunities with the One Sith and Black Empire collapsing, and many writers looking for a Dark Side faction, and we now being the only major one left.

And OOC we should welcome, and encourage, Sith writers to join us. But IC their characters should be unofficial associates of the First Order at best if they do not join the KoR, with no hope of climbing official ranks or holding any official position of authority in the First Order. IC they would expect to be treated with high levels of suspicion, distrust and distaste.

There is an easy solution for them, of course, which would be to forsake Sith ideals of selfishness and commit themselves fully by becoming Knights of Ren.

 

[Samka Derith]

I'd mainly like to echo what others have said, we are not a Sith empire and we should not become one. Sith who prove themselves loyal to the First Order and Supreme Leader may be granted positions within our power structure but they will have to work for them IC.

Lumping all the Sith into the Knights of Ren may not be the best way forward, especially as we're still trying to distinguish the Ren as a separate institution to the Sith Order to others on the board. Converts are welcome but there are ideological differences everyone involved needs to be aware of. Internal power struggles and blind bloodlust will result in immediate IC consequences as we work for the greater good of the collective not the individual nor will the murder of subordinates and budding acolytes be tolerated. The weak can be built up to become strong and even the incompetent can have a role to play in society, this is a vital and key difference in philosophy any Sith should be aware of.

A vetting process may also be useful, we don't want to be seen giving refuge to genocidal maniacs who are wanted by a chunk of the galaxy.

OOC of course we should welcome anyone who wants to write with us. There could even be a good story or two in there with Sith infiltrators so #Sithrefugeswelcome

 

[OK-3103]

I really appreciate the opportunity for us all to discuss this - not every Faction would be as open.

Having one Knight and about to add an apprentice to the fold, I chose the First Order because of the Knights of Ren and crafted my characters accordingly. They are not Sith - and I don't mean just in a naming convention. I mean they are ideologically different to Sith.

But in a sense what I suspect the FL team don't want to hear is why they shouldn't be admitted and instead come up with ways they could be added. So I'll offer the following:

The GR (may it RIP) had the Jedi Order. They were loyal servants of the GR. It also had any number of FUs that joined who were not members of the JO, but were loyal to the GR. It worked. It may not have been perfect and yes, there were conflicts from time to time - but there was an arrangement of sorts.

So that is a possible model to emulate. The challenge would only come if Sith wanted to dictate/unduly influence what the Knights did (or vice versa to be fair). In one way it makes for a great storyline if both sides remain honest.

As I said up front, I have misgivings - but hope I have suggested a possible way for it to work - and as the SSC did very recently, we could see if it works and if not, go back to the way it was before (is now).

 

[Ludolf Vaas]

Thank you for your input everyone! A lot has been said but just a few quick comments here -

I hate to be the "NAxALT" guy, but I think it's important to remember if we're conceiving the Sith as genocidal maniacs - not all Sith are like that. Yes, in many iterations, especially here on the board, they have been. But canonically there have been many Sith who have been less individualistic and have been willing to sacrifice themselves for a cause. There were examples of this in the canon Sith Empire. Not only this, but Palpatine and Vader (whom the Knights of Ren exalt) were Sith. So the Sith are very much our fellow travelers. It's just that the Knights of Ren are very zealous about which parts of the Sith ideology are good, and which are not. The interpretation of the Sith Code that encourages rampant individualism and "chaotic evilness" are to be discouraged. But the other parts of the Sith ideology which encourage strength and power and emotion fits well with the KoR - they just use these in a fascist way, i.e. for the greater advancement of their society.

That being said, I can see why many would be suspicious of the Sith in-character. And I agree that the assimilation must take place on their end, not ours. [member="Asharad Graush"] [member="Wolf"] [member="Samka Derith"] [member="Darth Veles"] and [member="OK-3103"], you all seem to be advocating in the same direction, which if I were to summarize, would be - the Sith are to function basically as auxiliary forces in the First Order. They are welcome here, so long as they pledge allegiance to the Supreme Leader. They can train here and practice their Sith cult here, but the only way they can rise up in our ranks is by demonstrating loyalty to our cause.

I am okay with this.

 

[sabrina]

[member="Ludolf Vaas"] [member="OK-3103"] [member="Samka Derith"] [member="Wolf"] [member="Darth Veles"] [member="Roderik von Brinkerhoff"] [member="Sentiri"] [member="Cyrus Tregessar"] [member="Asharad Graush"][member="Valessia Brentioch"] [member="Avicus DuSang"]

I had read of thread, I understand a lot of your points, so I like to ask a few questions.

1. What can be my and other sith ic goals be, if I do not wish to join KOR
2. Can I train members KOR
3. Can someone give clear boundaries of do and do not's, so I do not over step any postion.
4. Please bear in mind not all sith where genocidal (for no reason), like me and Darth Veles, so please give everyone atleast a chance.

 

[Avicus DuSang]

1. As [member="Ludolf Vaas"] pointed out, not all Sith are the same. If a Sith favors combat, they can join the Marines or Army and excel at their talents. There are many Lords that excel in diplomacy and working with others. These Sith would do well in the government setting. Assassins and their ilk would do well in the Intelligence Department. Those who love fleeting and piloting can join the Navy. Everyone else could find a proper home in the OoR.

2. I have no problem with this. There aren't a lot of people grabbing up apprentices and acolytes in the Order. So when we work together to bring our members in advancement, it improves the faction as a whole.

3. No genocide unless sanctioned by the top government officials. No karking slaves or slavery or slave raids. If you have issue with a member within the First Order, bring it to a superior instead of handling it yourself. Don't pick fights with other factions unless sanctioned by top government officials. Pretty sure that's it.

4. I have no qualms with OS or BE members that want to join. As long as they continue the tradition of a unified faction that we have going on.

 

[Jaron Lesan]

My biggest concern is that the Ren flavor be kept. If we start having an abundance of Sith (points to the fact the OS had almost 800 members at one point) I fear we will lose that.

Personally three things need to happen. ( if I am redundant then I apologize )

First, an active admin responsible for enforcing the lore and flavor of the Ren. What Veles says is good an all, but are we willing to enforce it to keep the flavor we have? If not then we will become the OS 2.0 which really was the Sith Empire 2.0...

Second, an NPC supreme leader that is not a nebulous idea. I believe what Asharad said will suffice.

Third, none of them can be faction staff for a minimum of six months activity and proven they understand the culture of the faction. As we expand we will need more staff to run this group and it needs to be people who eat and breath First Order and Knights of Ren. A lot of companies such as McDonald's and Starbucks actually train their employees in company culture. We need the same to be true of potential staff.

okay... that said...

I am welcoming of anyone who wants to join. I think the more the merrier, I also think the FO has the ability to move into the void left behind by the OS as the major bad guy faction. BUT let's still be bad guys our way!

 

[Ludolf Vaas]

[member="sabrina"] I think Avicus has made some general points, but I would like to add -

1. Your purpose should be bringing glory to our great civilization and creating a powerful society founded on the ideals of the Dark Side and human supremacy! How you do that is up to you. Sith can fight alongside us in battle and those with diplomatic skills can use them. You can also join the military if you want, we have a couple Sith characters that do this - however - most Sith probably would not want to do this. NFU and FU ranks do not stack with each other. In other words, being a Sith Master does not make you Elite rank in the military. You would start out as one of the Trainee ranks and work your way up. This goes for everyone else too, including the Knights of Ren. So most Sith would probably not want to subject themselves to that.

2. For now I'm going to say no on this. Our KoR members have made it clear that they wish to retain their unique quality. The Knights of Ren follow a very specific philosophy and so they should be indoctrinated only by other members with the same philosophy. If you want to train KoR, you should become a KoR yourself.

However, you can train other Sith Apprentices here. As I've said, the First Order will be a "safe haven" for Sith to continue their cult, so long as they remain loyal to us.

3. Uhh... don't blaspheme the Supreme Leader Also, everything you do should be done with the greater good in mind. We're fascists. We're not afraid to bleach entire planets to get our way, but we only do so if it's good for us in some way. We're not psychopaths who just go around killing things for giggles. This doesn't sound like you anyway, so you should have no problem

4. Don't worry, we will.

 

[sabrina]

1. I will go for governance
2. Who do I ask if some ask me, to be trained to check it over
3. but he smells bad as he never comes out the closets (JK)
4. cheers

[member="Ludolf Vaas"]