Discussion Jedi Forgiveness in StarWars

[Jsc]

Njeri Demascón - Okay. Now. Given that you've somewhat thought out these new and fascinating definitions for words like, mercy, justice, vengeance, and atonement. And come to some rather unique conclusions. Lol.

Humor me again and answer my questions, directly.

 

[Njeri Demascón]

Jsc

Ok.

1. I think my conclusions point to no. A Jedi can forgive all because forgiveness is inherent to Jedi philosophy, especially if the other option is vengeance.

2. + 3. The Force itself is non-denominational, a spectrum on which there are many colors. To be redeemed by the Force seems to imply that the Force cares what actions someone takes. And I think that is a false presumption. You can give yourself to the light side or the dark side or both or some mixture in between and it will always be there. Even if the question is specifically geared toward the light side of the Force, then still, the Force is there regardless of your past misdeeds.

4. This question is mired in politics which obscure the issue. But, if you're deadset on an answer. Then no, they should not be able to act as judge. Technically, the Jedi are a very small percentage of the Supreme Chancellor's constituency. And while they are a valuable ally, they do not speak for everyone. They pretty much only speak for themselves. And considering the vast majority has no understanding of the Force or these strange mystics who seemingly wield it (not that they do, just that such would likely be the assumption of Joe Schmo Galactic Citizen), then we can only give them so much credence. The Jedi can provide testimony in courts of law, of course. They can do so in a law enforcement capacity if that is their relation to the case. They can also do so as a character witness, more like a religious figure who can speak to someone's atonement. They should not fill both capacities for a singular person, as that would be a conflict of interest. And they are not an ultimate authority on any issue. The court makes the final decision on the fate of an individual.

5. As for why, this comes down to two points. As I mentioned, I think Joe Schmo Galactic Citizen would not be supportive of Jedi playing Judge and Jury when they are also already the Enforcer. That would give me great pause as the Supreme Chancellor decreeing policy. But also, from a Jedi perspective, detachment is also a pretty big deal. The reason why Luke's judgment of Vader plays no galactic importance is because he's Vader's son. Of course he would be the one person in the galaxy who would want to forgive his father. He has no detachment from the issue, and will never be able to see it all from an outsider's perspective. Which is exactly why Jedi are supposed to be detached, so that they can see the bigger picture and understand things from a wider perspective. So if a Jedi "feels" as though they should be the person to make a decision on someone else's future, I, as a Supreme Chancellor or even as another Jedi, would question that Jedi's motive.

 

[Aloy Vizsla]

I can only answer this in character because it's funny and I don't feel like having an actual debate right now;

"Can we just... Tell off all the kiffing wizards and let Normal people dictate their own lives and governments? Instead of, You know, Putting our lives and nations in the hands of religious zealots that talk to "ghosts" and kill each other because "my invisible space magic is better than your invisible space magic?"

 

[Jsc]

Aloy Vizsla - I have marked yours Best Answer.

 

[Jacen Nimdok]

Now that you mention it, could a Jedi testify in court on the basis of their telepathy? How about being used as lie detectors? What exactly is the role of the Jedi in society beyond safeguarding against the Sith and protecting innocents? Could a Jedi serve as a police officer? What about a psychologist? Are there Force sensitive therapists running around? Instead of asking “how does that make you feel?” they get to say “I can feel your anger at the pizza delivery guy who didn’t bother to properly secure your pizza last night, causing the cheese to slide over to one side. And also your lingering resentment toward your mother-in-law. Wait, is that really your deepest subconscious desire? Ewww.” After all, not every FU has to become a religious warrior on a galactic crusade. Some people might just wanna be a professional chef. Well, now you can cook a meal with your mind. Telekinesis rules, baby.

Anyway, to answer your question, the Jedi shouldn’t have the authority to pardon people. Folks still gotta face regular justice in court. In fact, I can think of several characters on this board who by all rights should be serving a prison sentence at the moment... but I digress. The Jedi shouldn't have too much societal or political power. (I even cringe at the idea of them becoming generals, but sure I guess. I'd just rather not see the Jedi Council, which represents their organization as a whole, backing one side of a war.) Technically speaking, their main schtick is to stop the Sith, and all the side stuff with the Mandalorians and the clones is simple empathy on an individual scale. People feel called to serve and protect.

 

[Jsc]

What exactly is the role of the Jedi in society beyond safeguarding against the Sith and protecting innocents?

You want to break the genre?

...Fine. Lol. But it's probably much simpler than we all give it credit for.

Amusingly. I've always believed, that much like the world of Harry Potter, the role of the Jedi in society is to create "Jedi Society." With places like Hogwarts, The Ministry, and Diagon Alley. Filled with magic, mystery, reputation, longevity, hospitality, and unbelievable responsibility. Elevating life for their kind to unbelievably magical places. Likewise, bringing miracles and wonder and hidden joy into the world of the Muggles too. To make our imaginations real again.

Luckily, on Chaos. We need not ever fear the Muggles either. They're just NPCs. Useless, trivial, and of no competition. Because we can handwave them away with just a thought, slaughter them by the trillions, make ignorant their experiences and their histories, or sudden draft billions of them into our fleets and navies. All with just a snap of our fingers. No big deal.

So. To beat a dead horse. I might ask, what is the role of Jedi forgiveness? And you might ask, what is the role of Jedi in society? Both great questions that bounce off once another. Making a kind of rational sense. But... I think we forget sometimes. This is still Star Wars. It's not supposed to make any rational sense. Haha. It's just supposed to make "feels" and "nostalgia" and sell movie tickets. Lol. Reminding us that their are some questions we are just not supposed to ask at all. Haha.

So I guess I'll turn this whole boat around and drive it safety back into the shallow waters of "writing fan fiction" for just a second, and say once again. Man. It doesn't matter. It's just a game.

Let's not break the genre. Let's not ask too big of questions.

Great reply man. Thanks!

 

[Caltin Vanagor]

Forgiveness for me is and will forever be linked with being Redemption. The Jedi belief/Code of Luke Skywalkers Order (and I am looking for references of this with the old Order) that Redemption of anyone is possible. Yes, Windu did say that Palpatine was beyond redemption but even Anakin (before he fully fell) said the man needed to stand trial. It's like Caltin always said "Redemption is never out of reach, you just have to reach for it."

 

[Takui]

I strongly believe that there is a difference between forgiveness and acceptance.

Forgiving someone for their transgression does not dismiss the actions that necessitated a need for forgiveness. What I mean is, say you had a friend in the past who was terrible to you. You can forgive that person and not want them to be part of your life anymore. You're not required to drop everything you felt regarding their actions and hold them indemnified. You should absolutely know better. While people can change, its better to not take chances on your mental health and happiness.

Forgiveness isn't about people being given a clean slate. Forgiveness is about letting go of a burden that weighs heavily on your shoulders.

With that said, redemption is about much more than forgiveness and seeking it. If a Sith is genuinely repentant, they will spend their whole lives trying to make up for their past mistakes and atrocities they committed. Simply making them a Jedi- a Jedi, which is a lifetime commitment of service- seems somewhat like both a sentence and a disservice.

What I mean is, the life of a Jedi is a choice. You don't take someone who doesn't want to be one. They didn't just take children from their families in the days of the Old Republic and conscript them. A child had to be willing. In fact, they're much more likely to find resentment in that and relapse.

The more likely route to redemption for a Sith would be through giving up on Force Ideologies altogether and becoming a merchant, or a farmer, or something that contributes to society in some way, but doesn't have some strong tie to the life they're leaving behind.

To directly answer the questions about forgiveness under that context:

A Jedi is compassion personified. The only reason one would withhold forgiveness is if the person in question was not genuinely seeking to be forgiven.

Likewise, the Force has dark and light aspects. If we are to believe in the 'will of the Force,' we have to accept that the actions of that person are something the Force condoned in some way and therefore, the Force would not need to require forgiveness of anyone.

 

[Jsc]

...If we are to believe in the 'will of the Force,' we have to accept that the actions of that person are something the Force condoned in some way and therefore, the Force would not need to require forgiveness of anyone.

What are your thoughts concerning how this correlates with the Dark Side of the Force? Specifically, when a Force User twists the Force to his own ends, as with many dark side applications. If we are to assume that the Force has a will? (singular, plural, spiritual, or scientific, etc,) And we assume an interpretation whereby the dark side flows, or is twisted, contrary to that will?

Would that not then create a trespass against it's will or a sin?

Or, does the will of the Force condone and gleefully accept all of the applications and consequences created by sentients who choose to manipulate it, dark and light?

Just wondering. Great reply!

 

[Takui]

I like to look at the Force from a semi-Deistic perspective. All things exist, and in all things the Force exists: the Force itself seldom acts, save in the interest of Balance, and even when it does act, it does so in a very hands-off way.

Take for example, circa 1000 BBY, the Battle for Ruusan. Hundreds of Sith, both Masters of the Dark side and disciples alike are completely wiped out in a single, diabolical, monstrous move by Darth Bane in the interest of purifying their order.

For a thousand years, not a single whisper of the Sith was heard among the people of the Republic, except in history books or quiet reminders by the Jedi. Complacency set in. The calm and relative peace were quickly shattered because the galaxy had been out of balance.

Balance means the scales shift forward and backward, between darkness and light. If the Jedi existed with their peace and prosperity for a thousand years, it follows that a thousand years of war might break out to even things out.

The great fallacy among Jedi writers and Sith writers alike is that the Jedi are aspected to the "light side." The same reason stands that the old Jedi order fell to pieces in that they allowed their perspective to shift away from "Keepers of Balance" to "standing against the dark." If the ideal of the Jedi is to maintain balance, it is to assure that the scales are kept even and not swinging one way or the other.

That's how they misinterpreted the prophecy, in my opinion, and how Anakin Skywalker was the Chosen One, just not Chosen for what they wanted.

As for how the Force feels about all of this? As I've stated, if we consider the Force to be a Deistic entity: maybe slightly amused, perhaps ambivalent altogether.

There's a carefully kept Balance, and the Galaxy (the Force, as it is in all things) will ultimately act to preserve that Balance.

Jsc

 

[Cara Dorniarn]

Sith have entered the chat I kid, I'm just too lazy to change accounts.

I personally abide by a certain faith, and with that in mind I have to politely disagree with Okkeus Dainlei 's comparison of "Jedi = Heaven, Grey = Atheists, Sith = Hell" solely on the point that the Jedi Order had participated in and turned a blind eye to multiple genocides within their history, along with other suspect elements in their actions and teachings. The Jedi would justify these actions or cover them up still believing themselves the only right sect of Force users, and through that belief created the Sith and the related woes that befell our Star Wars universe. If Heaven equates perfect mercy and Hell perfect cruelty then neither Jedi nor Sith can ever hold those labels.

Q: Likewise, (or, depending on interpretation,) are there any crimes or offenses that The Force itself can or should never ever forgive?

No.

Q: Why?

In Lucas's original concept of the Force it was portrayed as a black and white "thinking" entity, very similar to any deity in a monotheistic religion of today. However this concept has fallen away into a widely interpreted nebulous power. It's a thing where the "Dark" and "Light" are (supposed to be) in balance, but those small peanuts who fly about the galaxy in tin cans like to throw it out of whack. The Force isn't a being of conscious, it's the primordial stuff of the universe which flows toward the balance of itself and nothing more. I do agree about "wounds" and "scars" in the Force, as the sudden displacement of energy or mishandling of such would create a negative manifestation.

Q: If you were the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic, would you give all Jedi Knights the ability to legally pardon criminals? Or just some of them? Or none of them at all?

None at all.

Q: Why?

First of all, there'd be no zealot battle monks interfering in any branch of my Republic! However, if the Order and the government were in cahoots I can only imagine them acting as Inquisitors if given that much power (and no one expects the Jedi Inquisition!) But no, I would not give them that much authority.


In short, friends, let's ditch the sides and pursue only the natural balance of the Force.

​

This ad brought to you by the Church of the Cosmic Balance. ​

 

[Jsc]

I personally abide by a certain faith, and with that in mind I have to politely disagree with Okkeus Dainlei 's comparison of "Jedi = Heaven, Grey = Atheists, Sith = Hell" solely on the point that the Jedi Order had participated in and turned a blind eye to multiple genocides within their history, along with other suspect elements in their actions and teachings.

That was a great reply! Slayed it!

More to this quote now however. I'd just like to mention that Okkeus did a great job of explaining his point of view using that analogy. And your point of disagreement with his turn of phrase is simply citing every misdeed, of every Jedi Order, throughout all of Star Wars history? Oh. Come on man. That's like showing up to Christmas Dinner and stopping the party to say we all shouldn't be celebrating because Santa isn't real. Lol. It's just so silly a nitpick as to be completely absurd in any social conversation. Even poor George Lucas is shaking is head right now. Lol. And he's the guy most happy to associate the Jedi with Good and the Sith with Evil. Haha. So get out'a here with that rubbish critique. Lol. The Jedi can't be assocated with Heaven in an analogy. Jesus. Kill me now.

Great reply. Loved it!

 

[Takui]

I do want to piggyback off of what Cara Dorniarn said in terms of the Jedi "overlooking" genocide; Ruusan and more specifically the Army of Light, as well as the Jedi actions against Palawa were prime examples of Jedi using the ends to justify the means and condoning wholesale slaughter for the sake of perceived "balance."

Throughout its history the Jedi did some morally bleak things in pursuit of what they believed their values were as opposed to what those values actually meant. That didn't make the order itself wrong, but when you factor that the actions of those in the order do reflect on the order itself and its inability to control or limit those actions, the argument that the Jedi are inherently good has no legs to stand on.

On the flip side, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Jacen Solo was seduced to the dark side of the Force because he felt the Jedi would/could/did not take the necessary actions to bring order to the Galaxy. It was an easy transition for him because Jacen fundamentally was authoritarian and believed that the Jedi ideal of balance was far less important than structure and justice. He wanted good things, perhaps even great things, but morally he was willing to do horrific things- like murdering his aunt- to achieve them.

By the time he gave himself the name Caedus, he wasn't the same person anymore and he knew it. There came a point when he was disgusted with himself, and then, a point where he ceased to care at all. Even the people he loved ultimately turned against him.

Looking at it that way, both the Jedi and the Sith are prone to extremes. That, too, is a type of balance.

 

[Jsc]

I do want to piggyback off of what Cara Dorniarn said in terms of the Jedi "overlooking" genocide;

But no. Pls.

Continue.

 

[PERSENUS]

The Dark Side is a lure that corrupts the user mentally and physically, the deeper they go, the harder it becomes to break free. It is temptation and corruption, something to make people stray off the path through means beyond morals as non-Force users do not experience it. The Dark Side from its aura alone if strong enough, can break Jedi in its presence and turn them over, like how Revan used Malechor 5 to turn Jedi to his cause. While surely, the Dark Side starts with a choice to delve into it, what continues onwards is often uncharacteristic of the person before it. While not exactly manipulated, its that certain parts of them are magnified, often negative parts like zealous hatred or a thirst for power. It is not the same thing as a thirst for power that normal people have, it is compulsion given to them by the Force, compulsions uncharacteristic of them.

Now, this isn't always the case. At some point, people simply give into the darkness. People that truly harness the darkness within them without remorse, with full intent, and with complete control. Sidious, perchance? Vader was under stress of trying to do something out of love and passion, he didn't care about the dark side then, he was just trying to save Padme. Vader wasn't making the choice to go the dark side, he was making the choice to try and save Padme, and through that, was led astray.

And beyond that point, it can be argued that they are still in control. They do the things they do willfully, just without inhibitions. Its like someone on a drug trip against their will murdering a building of people. In the end, their actions are understandable, but they still need to face the repercussions of what they've done. They can be forgiven, but they still have to work for redemption. Is it their fault for being drugged? No. They don't deserve punishment, they deserve redemption, rehabilitation - under great inspection and scrutiny, behind bars still, but at least not with full-blame upon them.

Though, this isn't entirely accurate, as Vader still made a choice, and the person in the analogy didn't and was forced to. But we say, that person was forced to take the drug without exactly knowing the full consequences of it or else the person with in the camera would slit the throats of their family. Still, the analogy still feels kind of loose looking at it.

 

[Jsc]

The Dark Side is a lure that corrupts the user mentally and physically, the deeper they go.

...Now, this isn't always the case.

...And beyond that point, it can be argued that they are still in control.

...Though, this isn't entirely accurate, as Vader still made a choice,

...Still, the analogy still feels kind of loose looking at it.

Loose is definitely one way of putting this.

Anyway. Would you mind humoring me again and just answering the questions directly? Its just easier for me to follow that way. Thanks!

 

[Grrwunhoooll Agaburry]

Back in the old days the Jedi were judge, jury and executioner. Those were the good days of the Jedi Order. Jedi used to kill outright for things like petty theft or out of sheer feelings/ belief they are doing right. BOOM, You are guilty and now you DIE. They still retained their lightside connection too and were remembered and listed as Jedi masters. Like the Punisher but all across the galaxy with glow sticks. Aint taking shit from anyone. Pretty cool if you ask me.

Example of such jedi. Anyone from Jedi Covenants First Watch Circle. Feln is my favorite jedi master tho. Not even the young-lings survived.

Soo... How could Jedi like those be able to do the same things as the Sith and it still be OK as far as the force in concerned?

Q: Are there any crimes or offenses that a Jedi can or should never ever forgive?
A: Sure! Depends on the Jedi and their beliefs tho. The Jedi have changed so much since their origins and there are many different types of Jedi now. Just like there are different types of Sith.

Q: Likewise, (or, depending on interpretation,) are there any crimes or offenses that The Force itself can or should never ever forgive?
A: In the grand scheme of light and darkside and space magic stuff. Offenses and crimes are like protozoa to the Force or maybe even like lint. So small and insignificant in the long run.

Q: Why?
A: The Force always self-regulates and it bounces back, it always seems to get its way in the end. It has a will of its own and you can go whatever direction you want and use it or align yourself with it. Either way its path gets corrected down the line, even if you dont see it in your life-time. It happens. Just like with Plagueis, Tenebris, Sidious, Traya, Anakin, Revan, Sion, Nhilius and the list goes on.

 

[Gren Blidh]

Q: Likewise, (or, depending on interpretation,) are there any crimes or offenses that The Force itself can or should never ever forgive?​

Q: Why?​

Implying the Force itself isn't the most guilty of crimes.

Throughout Star Wars it's made pretty clear that people don't actually have free will. Everything is subject to "the will of the Force". At least this is what the Jedi believe. The Force acts as a sort of demiurge in the Star Wars universe; countless conflicts between Jedi and Sith are repeated time and again, and not just conflicts but cataclysmic events themselves are replayed, costing untold lives and crushing free will, just so the Force can achieve some cosmic sense of "balance".

The Force apparently doesn't forgive any existence of the Dark Side at all, because no price is too big for the elimination of all Darksiders. The Force will kill billions if it has to.