Discussion Let's talk about the Dark Side

[Kai Bamarri]

For those who don't care about what I have to say, here is the topic prompt: how do you depict the Dark Side in your RP, what do you like/dislike about writing Sith, who are some of your favorite villains and why, etc.

Based on the limited amount of SW media I've consumed, I usually see the Dark Side depicted in one of two ways:

1.) Straightforward corruption and selfishness. A Sith is a Dark Sider because they want power for themselves, and they use the Force as a tool of that power, often wielding it as a weapon against any who would stand in their way. This version of the Dark Side is a character flaw attributed to a specific individual, usually a villain.

2.) The Dark Side is an exterior entity that can influence people in negative ways, almost like demonic possession or some forms of mental illness. This approach tends to absolve the individual from responsibility for their actions, since they are acting under the influence of a Dark Side nexus or artifact of evil, a literal malicious spirit possessing them, voices/impulses in their head, etc.

More complex approaches do exist in canon. One of my favorites is how Matt Stover writes about it in his books, where "the only Dark Side you need fear is the one in your own heart". The Dark Side isn't an entity or something only certain villainous people harbor, it's in everyone. Anyone is capable of good or evil, and we are all responsible for our actions and the choices we make. Achieving balance, then, isn't about the Light Side winning or the destruction of the Dark Side; it's about making peace with your "Shadow" and incorporating that part of your personality into your identity rather than completely rejecting/suppressing it or letting it take over. Or something along those lines.

 

[Jax Thio]

That's pretty much Jax's view and I think it's shared with the Legends version of the NJO specifically with Luke Skywalker. The Dark Side isn't inherently evil, it's just a tool that can be used for the greater good. Why so many people fall into it and become "evil" is because of the Dark Side's addictive nature, once you get that taste you want more and more until you've become a different person. Anakin Skywalker went from wanting to save his wife to wanting to overthrow the Emperor and rule Galaxy the more he got immersed in the Dark Side. Not suggesting that you should want to tap into its powers but I would believe it'll take great mental discipline to fully utilize the Dark Side.

 

[Darth Empyrean]

I used to look at it as more the Force itself is corrupting, and people who are given power tend to abuse the power. Its a simple cause and effect, easy to understand, and its relatively enjoyable for the vast majority - however, as I've learned and written more about Star Wars over the years I've sorta abandoned the idea that the Dark Side is 'just a corruption of ones self' so much as its a natural punishment - or even, purposeful punishment by natural law.

What I mean by that is in the Plageius books, it is mentioned during his research segments that the Force is in fact sentient. It knows what its doing, it changes the galaxy as it sees fit - there is no avoiding it. Many times this is reiterated in more subtle ways - such as prophecy, messages from the Force, visions and quests. The Force is very canonically aware and very canonically reacts - such as it did in the books when Sidious and Plageius attempted to manipulate the midichlorians and instead forced a reaction from the Force.

It just so happened that the reaction the Force had was Anakin - which in turn destroyed Sidious for his efforts. The Force seemed to know this was going to happen anyway - but its also clear in Plageius's talks that even he cannot avoid the will of the Force. So the Force created people to abuse it, then destroyed them for doing so - which is odd isn't it?

Coming back to someone who inspired the person who inspired Bane, who inspired Plageius down the road - Kreia. She spoke often about how the Force itself was not an evil nor good entity, but was infact a cruel railroad of destiny renacting itself over and over. She wanted to destroy the Force because it was keeping the galaxy in a cycle of destruction and death - so in essence, she was going after the Grand Tyrant despite so obviously being a Sith. She was destroyed by Meetra Surik, only after she had regained a connection to the Force - once again becoming its agent.

The Force destroys what it doesn't like - which made me consider 'why is the Dark Side corrupting'? I still believe that power for powers sake corrupts, but I don't believe so much in the Dark Side itself is something that corrupts people. On the contrary, I believe it is indepedence manifest - such as the code of the Sith entails. 'Breaking the Chains' is freeing ones self of destiny, to strive to make your own - and it forces the Force to react. Be it through disrupting your personality, your thoughts, or sending someone against you - the Force will find a way to stop what you're doing, or turn you into a piece of its plans.

Another backing point is a deleted scene from the Clone Wars animation. When they meet the Celestials, there was meant to be a scene with the Son - the supposed personification of the Dark Side. In it, he was not the controller of the Sith and they did not operate beneath him, but rather he was tormented and manipulated by the Sith Lords Revan and Bane. The implications is that the Sith have gone out of their way to manipulate a large aspect of the Force - for better or for worse - and drive a wedge into the 'balance' that had existed.

Was the Son always like that? The implication is yes, but its hard to say. What we do know is that after the Celestial's ascended to the Throne of the Force - in Moridin, they began to embody aspects of it. Good, Dark, Middling difference; but were it always dark and evil, or was that done through the bending and twisting of other Sith?

At this point, this is a rambling mess of my thoughts.

TL;DR

The Dark Side isn't real, its just activily finding yourself as an individual, and since the Force is the total collective - it punishs you for being an individual. Sith are Nihilist, Jedi are Buddhist, the Force is a trolly running over people and nobody has a lever to change it (but the Sith, who keep getting thwarted).

 

[Hisashi]

I write the Force, in general, as an entity that has a unique relationship with human nature.

It is akin to a god. It has a will, at times, but cannot force someone to walk according to it. And no one can truly say what is the will of the Force vs. the ambitions of the person.

I see the Dark Side as an amplifier to human nature. Its corruption is simply taking what it means to be human, emotionally, and cranking it up to 11. This is why Dark Siders are typically more angry, vicious, ambitious, etc. Because the natural parts of their persona have been dialed up to the extremes.

I see the Light as reductive to human nature. It is easier to ignore loss, live without attachments, etc. when one is steeped in the light because the individual's nature is muted. This is why ancient Je'daii who were Bogan-drunk were sent to meditate on Ashla. And vice versa. The Dark would be reduced to a balanced level. The Light would be amplified to a balance level.

Additionally, this is why the Darkness is "temptation" to the reduced Lightsiders. They are operating at a level that is human nature, negative edition - so anything begging them to be themselves and some is a sweet whisper. Who they really are is begging to come out and be amped up. (Ever wonder why kids who grew up in boarding school go buck wild at 18? Same thing).

Meanwhile, the Darkness amps up its followers so high that they physically and mentally can't handle it. This is where that lovely Dark Side ugly comes from.

Overall, the Force doesn't give a damn who you are or what you do. But part of it wants you to be you to the extreme, and part of it wants you to deny what it means to be human.

 

[Kai Bamarri]

TL;DR

The Dark Side isn't real, its just actively finding yourself as an individual, and since the Force is the total collective - it punishes you for being an individual. Sith are Nihilist, Jedi are Buddhist, the Force is a trolley running over people and nobody has a lever to change it (but the Sith, who keep getting thwarted).

Hehe, I hate this.

But seriously, the whole "the Force is sentient and has a will of its own" thing... not a fan? Well, I mean, I don't object to characters believing the Force is sentient or even godlike, but I reject anything that tries to explicitly make that a fact. It's a prequel plot device that was wang-jangled in there with the Chosen One prophecy so Qui-Gon had a reason for wanting to train Anakin and so Palpatine could have a connection to Anakin, and as far as I can tell its only other purpose beyond that is to serve as an excuse for why Anakin is so powerful. Haven't read Plagueis or the Bane trilogy, so I can't really comment on how it's used there.

I see the Dark Side as an amplifier to human nature. Its corruption is simply taking what it means to be human, emotionally, and cranking it up to 11. This is why Dark Siders are typically more angry, vicious, ambitious, etc. Because the natural parts of their persona have been dialed up to the extremes.

Ayyy, I got a quote from Shatterpoint for this!:

"A Jedi's connection to the Force amplifies everything about us: it invests our smallest actions with the greatest conceivable weight. It makes us more of whatever we already are. If we are calm, it gives us serenity. If we are angry, it fills us with the rage of a god. Anger is a trap. You might think of it as a narcotic, not unlike glitterstim. Even the slightest taste can leave you with an appetite that never fades.
This is why we Jedi must strive always to build peace within ourselves: what is within will be reflected by what is without. The Force is One. We are part of the Force; it will always be, at least partially, whatever we are."

But yeah. I guess I just dislike the idea of the Force having any kind of influence on people, aside from maybe a "drunk on power" sort of mentality, because I dislike it when characters aren't held accountable for their actions.

Also, I was going to save this topic for another thread, but since it's related to this: I find the whole idea of certain Force powers having a set alignment rather silly. There is some logic to it (Light Side powers are supposed to be selfless and beneficial, while Dark Side powers are supposed to be selfish or harmful) but it gets really muddled the longer you think about it, and it's very obviously just a video game mechanic to facilitate leveling up your character. You can argue that virtually any Force power could be used to do something good, or to do something evil, regardless of the alignment that’s been officially assigned to it in canon. You could use Force Lightning to destroy the circuitry powering a bomb, and you could use Force Heal to revive a wounded Dark Lord.

 

[Maple Harte]

I always approach it in that the Force has a will but it cannot make you do anything you genuinely don't want to do. It merely takes advantage of something you would have eventually tried to do (or not do) by other means were it not around. It's like the Super Soldier serum in Captain America: It makes a good person Great, and a bad person Worse. My characters are thus fully responsible and thus cannot blame their actions on being manipulated by the Force because they would have ended up being who they were and doing what they do without it, it just would have been much more difficult without it. It is not a corrupter but rather an enabler like the Outsider in the Dishonored Series

 

[Kyric]

It's just a battery as far as I'm concerned.

All my characters view the Force as some cosmic power in some capacity. Some believe it to be an entity all its own, others believe it to be an influence on their lives. I personally see the Force, light or dark, as a power source. A means to an end. The canon of it is weird. The legends approach is also weird. It all just feels like comic book story points to me.

In one issue, X is awesome. In another issue, Y is awesome. Consistency is non-exist, ambivalent at best, really, so it can fit into whatever story is being told by the publishers.

 

[Matsu Ike]

It is something fun to debate or look at as the force can be many things to many different people. Perspective makes everything go around so throw Matsu's into the mix. She is much more the living side of the force... that it is alive and has a will but it is not actively there like a god... it is enriched by the experiences of the beings living within it... the cosmic force is the lifeblood spreading throughout while the living force itself creates life, strife, war, and joy and then as life ends it returns enriching the cismic force and by extension the universe itself. The war, destrroion, danger is not in itself bad but excessive amounts of it can be dangerous they create the corruption of the darkside and overtime the force looks for ways to balance itself and bring everything back into a state of oneness. Even going to far to the light can be dangerous as stars burn out, become destroyed, life ends and violence does occur. She views the aspects of the force and what she can do with it while being steeped in the light but rarely will say she is the best example of a jedi as she is can be detached and as Ashin Cardé Varanin via Je'gan has noted she doesn't regard lives the way some jedi do. Willing to kill the many to protect the few but also spends countless time developing the technologies both force based and scientific to enrich and aid lives renewing it. It is what guides her in learning many aspects of the force from various groups across the galaxy both light, dark and neutral but maintaining a steadfast adherence to protecting life where she can.

 

[Listib Hibin]

Where do I even begin...

I will start by saying this, I been roleplaying Dark-Sided individuals for well over a decade and got very good at it to a fault.

Over a decade ago, I started roleplaying through a Webs board over SWBFII server on Sith Academy and then over to Sith Empire. Guild rank wise and gameplay wise, I became a figure known as Darth Ki, more named after just my ability to use Ki-Adi-Mundi in the game and also some horrible luck at dating from what my master found amusing. I was ranked at different times, Battlemaster, member of the Dark Council, Lorekeeper for retelling events in the games history along with actual history in Star Wars Lore and finally Sage in my retirement. Much of what I learned of the Dark Side comprised of my experience seeing out many things over four years, mainly on the rights and wrongs.

One of the biggest things I learned over the Dark Side is how well the Code of the Sith I can still recite to this very day.

Peace is a Lie, There is only Passion.
Through Passion, I gain Strength.
Through Strength, I gain Power.
Through Power, I gain Victory.
Through Victory, I break my Chains.
Force Shall Free Me.
(Last Line, Darth Bane Excerpt.)

I literally said this out loud while typing, it is that well engraved and I spent about the same time knowing it, attempting to figure out each part of the code and honestly when I was much younger, apply it to real life. I sometimes still do, mainly the idea of understanding that Peace is never achieved in full and that emotions is not to be ignored. I wrote several articles when I was with other groups and at some point, I should bring some of those writings here.

Aside from that, I been part of Star Wars Galaxies Emulators, various as an Inquisitor which most have probably met at some point. Jegy Sesara is a figure from the roleplay community I brought onto here only a few years ago and he started about nine years ago if memory still serves me well. Instead of playing a mere bad guy, I learned how to balance the ideals of someone who is told to be in a position of power, but hoping not to lose his mind or lose himself in power. Yes, it was difficult but I learned a great deal. Also this character lasted about five years before most roleplay ended on him.

Also bearing in mind, I read through the Darth Bane trilogy which I love till about the third book, have Darth Plageius which is one of my favorites to explain the idea of the Rule of Two and why afterwards I decided it was a mistake, at least in the context they wanted to do. I also own the Book of the Sith and at times read it when it is in reach to find out something new, prying into the minds of others. It is interesting to see how each person reacts to their powers and how some sees it in others. Also before asking, I also own Lords of the Sith which is embarrassing and no one should ever read it. It makes Darth Sidious become Sherlock Holmes yet it does give some life to more open sexual orientation in a book.

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However, how do I view the Dark Side?

The Dark Side, while it can twist your mind is only from letting yourself not have a handle over your power. Remember the Sith Code, it talks that the first lie they all know is Peace. Peace is never true, Peace is never fully attained, it is a mere truce to them that will someday break. Much like squabbling siblings, there will always be another fight, another conflict to come. Passion over projects, family, lovers...there is so much and you use those things, let it give the strength to protect what you care for, what you love for. It comes then as you get better at using your strength, your power, the power to speak, the power to move, to think, to be something more. When you have that victory in your grasp, it comes the very thing you then confront and it is that door, do you break the chains on the door to become even further than what you are? What you could ever truly be? At that point, when you do, the Force willingly, allows you to be fully free, no limitations except to what you believe you cannot do for yourself.

I know that is a mouth full and I am sorry, but the Sith Code when it was created, was meant to be the reverse of the Jedi Code, it has been talked about before, but it was made during the first Civil War of the Jedi. It meant that they are allowed emotions, to let their minds and hearts speak for others. No limitations. It is what you make of it at the end, that will always define you. Remember how some Sith spoke? How those who could not handle its power, become Rabid Dogs? Think of it that way, those who lose their way, become mindless killers. Those who can control it, are either scheming dictators or those rational enough to keep their mind sane. It is a difficult path and those who follow it, always falls once.

The two characters I had, Nervak Kai and Jegy Sesara both fell into their own pits.

Nervak Kai had to transfer his essence into the Cerean body and practically damned himself, becoming his own worst enemy after attempting to help the Jedi end the war. Yes, I fucked up so royally that I caused the extinction, in our PC environment, the entire Jedi faction to which I was coined Darth Ki. Later, I did the same thing with Sith Academy towards the rise of the Sith Empire which thankfully, exists only in memory.

Jegy Sesara on the other hand, grew into his power rapidly and considered himself near untouchable, nearly unkillable and completely dominant in almost everything he did as an Inquisitor. Before the end of two years, he had effectively killed a Force Ghost, killed a failed apprentice that attempted to assassinate the Head Inquisitor, and had killed off three rebel groups, one of which was player run which more or less, was on request from the town we roleplayed in.

The reason I mention those two instances to the point of their height, is due to how I saw falling into the Dark Side. Darth Ki was more or less, my own personal hell I created for myself and how many friends I distanced from in an effort to keep a unity and where I finally learned the real meaning to the first line of the Sith Code. Jegy Sesara on the other hand is almost a reflection of myself, someone who wishes to be kind and have the power required to keep those from falling, but knowing that going to far will effectively lose yourself to madness, something that honestly did happen during my time roleplaying and had to scale him back.


The Dark Side, in a nut shell, is the ability to control the emotions you have and direct them towards others in the form of the Force, knowing you will have to live with those consequences. The more you use them, the more dull you become to what you are doing. The more dull you become, the more you are willing to do more to justify the means. Killing one to stop a plague does not mean much, but when you consider destroying a whole planet to stop one person from escaping, then it speaks volumes. Darth Malak anyone?


I can ramble on and I am stopping before I make this into some article and rewrite the whole thing, but I want to leave this video. The video to me reflects in my mind, more or less, on how much I learned from so many years of reflection over killing and war. Nervik Kai and Jegy Sesara, would be both this way at this point and honestly, I think that is a good thing.

 

[Kal]

In my mind, it's not about what you do, it's about how you do it.

The Dark Side is primal, emotional, and easy. In many situations, it is a shortcut to power and it's more likely to hurt your mind or body than it is to abandon you - it's why Jedi can feel tempted to tap into it in times of dire need. I like to view it as a mixture of a battery and a magic drug.

The discipline you need to properly harness the Light is still present here, but it's needed to control the power, not wield it.

That's the gist of how I view it, anyway. Now to go onto one hell of a tangent - the Force is a reflection of life.

I prefer not to ascribe the Force a will of its own, instead, it is an amalgamation of everyone that lives and has ever lived. Life is filled with conflicts and contradictions, and so the Force is too. Sith Sorcerers believe that their chants and runes have meaning, and so they do - surely helped by the fact that they seem magical and powerful and terrifying to your average person.

It is, in effect, a vast, semi-mutable gestalt of ideas and emotions.​

 

[Amea Virou]

I see the force as a constant presence that can help empower individuals. In the end the addicting part of the dark side is the catharsis that comes from acting on strong emotion and the illusion of relief it can provide. For example, someone who feels unjustly done in by someone else and acts on the emotion to tear them apart, right? At first there is relief, then there is horror at what you have done, and then there is the realization that you can't undo it so you let an anger fester at yourself, or a smugness, or however that person manages to deal with the repercussions of the actions that just keep mounting and mounting.

I like what you mentioned in the Shatterpoint quote:

It makes us more of whatever we already are.

But then, that is just my take on it. Some are just unapologetically evil because it is the omegaepic keklul.

And so, I mean as a personal sidetrack for me, this is why I despise the idea of "Ashla" and "Declan" or whatever the whole "force personified" stuff is. My preference is for it to just be an unknowing force that is ever-present and sort of felt but not seen. It gets too close to a sort of "god-like" personification for me. I dislike it immensely.

 

[Bernard]

I wanna give a heavily generalizing hot take. Writing the dark side in tune with the original depiction is hard because people generally don't like to write their characters as vulnerable or weak and because of that the dark side and power as a corrupting force isn't something people generally think about. i.e. who would ever realistically depict the disadvantages of power in a power fantasy? What is a realistic depiction anyways? I guess that's the topic of this discussion, huh.
Addendum: that generalization is pretty spicy, and it's probably more because writing realistic, 3d characters congruent to a specific source material is hard yo.


Ok, my take:

I see the star wars story through dyadic themes of good vs evil. You have your good guy plucky rebel heroes who follow the Light Side, renouncing power and accepting “The Force” (read: destiny or nature) and you have the technological, imperialist/fascist bad guy empire that follows the Dark Side and pursues power at any cost, attempting to bend “The Force” (read: destiny or nature) to their own desires.

In that lens, the Dark Side becomes an indulgence of selfish desires that go against a natural, transcendent “order of things”. If we look at the reasons why people turn to or continue to follow the dark side this becomes pretty apparent to me. Vader falls to the Dark Side because he wants the power to save his wife, who is “doomed by fate” to die. Palpatine (somewhat vaguely) falls to the Dark Side because he wants to impose his own personal order on the galaxy that goes against “nature” (see: the death star as technology to impose galactic order.) Plagueis is devoted to the Dark Side when we meet him, but he continues on that path because he’s obsessed with immortality, trying to escape his own death, a natural part of life. Those who follow Force Users who have turned to the Dark Side tend to fall into a similar camp of pursuing the same type of “Order” or “Power” or similar ideals (see: Tarkin and Order, Stereotypical Imperial officer and the power to oppress others, etc.).

On the flip side then, you have the Light Side which is a willingness to bend to the “order of nature”, whatever that might be. Usually, some version of self-sacrifice, being in tune with nature or acting against radical change in favour of balance and harmony. In an “ideal” light side universe, everyone would play their part to maintain harmony and balance by accepting this metaphysical “order of nature,” but the temptation to go outside those rules and be selfish, to accumulate power, status, or wealth for oneself instead of for harmony, becomes the draw of the Dark Side, and the reason why people continue to fall for it. Because accepting this “order of nature” means sacrificing yourself, or some part of yourself, for something that’s greater than you are and that’s hard to do for humans, who tend to be more self-interested and act in accordance with self-preservation. I.e. acting in accordance with the “order of nature” often conflicts with acting in accordance with “human nature”, which is where the core of the conflict comes from.

That’s the purpose the Dark Side serves imo, to be a literal representation of the temptation of power and acting against the “order of nature.” It’s judged as evil in the dyadic system of Star Wars, so it’s associated with signs of decay (dark side degradation), evil (cruelty, oppression, and indifference to human life), etc.

How do we integrate it into our writing? Well, for that you need to have some internal character conflict first. What are their weaknesses? What would cause them to choose to gain power, money, love, emotions over what they think is good? Look there and you can start to think about how the Dark Side would manifest in your character.


P.S. I like Kal 's takes on how the Dark Side works. Touches on the aspects of short-cuts to power that I completely missed but are integral to the story (Dagobah segments).

P.P.S. Listib Hibin 's take also touches well on the inherent emotional, irrational nature of the Dark Side too. The way it's connected to harnessing and channelling your own emotions to 'manifest your own will' onto the Force (read: the order of things). And that continuous corruption that the Dark Side exhibits, hollowing you out as a person until you turn into an addict for power. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, or whatever that one englishman said.

P.P.P.S. I like the Jungian take in the intro post, about integrating your "shadow". That seems to be the converging endpoint to star wars we can't ever reach or else the franchise stops existing. It connects to Kreia too, in the sense that Kreia saw the Force, and the conflict of the Light and the Dark, as the source of all suffering and wanted to destroy it. Explains why I like that part so much too. Existentialism in my Star Wars, heck yeah.

P.P.P.P.S. gosh I'm gonna get to this take Darth Empyrean when I'm less distracted because this is super juicy just based on the TL;DR. I love it.

 

[Enyo Typhos]

I've never been fond of the idea that the dark side is a sentient entity that drives people to do bad stuff because it removes agency and thus accountability. Real people who commit war crimes and crimes against humanity don't do it because there's a voice in their head and many aren't even deviant psychopaths. Most are disturbingly 'normal' and, if not held to account, reintegrate back into ordinary society seamlessly, which is a lot more frightening and disturbing.

Some characters I write view the Force in a more mythical fashion (or just view it as a source of energy, but attributes is existence and their ability to call upon its power to a literal deity because they were raise in a cultual context entirely different from Jedi and Sith). That's not my view personally, but then my characters aren't me. It would be boring if they were.

The dark side itself is to me just selfishness, amorality, lack of empathy, naked pursuit of power. It's a self-centred spiral. Power corrupts...or rather it reveals. And it gives you a rush of sorts, always leaving you wanting more. It's how I write Enyo. Her fall is the product of circumstance (abusive and manipulative treatment by her makers, who conditioned her to essentially be a slave-soldier and brainwashed/cyborgised her when she didn't perform, witnessing the alleged good guys do bad things of their own) and choice. She could've chosen a different paths to topple her creators after freeing herself instead of working with criminal scumbags, Sith and the like. At the latest she could've done so after her makers had been beaten, and tried to make up for the damage she'd caused.

But she didn't. Her way of doing things 'got results'. She identifies power and control with security, morality with chains and frankly switches off her empathy when dealing with virtually anyone who's not one of her siblings. People other than them are just threats or assets. Frankly, she wouldn't even use the term dark side or show a lot of emotion because she was raised by genocidal droids, not Sith. But she's still an awful person.

It is pertinent to note that the term 'light side' is not used in the OT or the prequels. It's just 'the Force' or 'the dark side of the Force'. Because the Sith pervert the Force for their own gain.

 

[Vesta]

When I write characters that delve into the dark side my characters have differing views on what it is, some think it's an opposing and sentient half of the force, another might think it's just power to draw from, etc; but I have a rather specific interpretation of it and what it does. To me, as a writer, the force isn't any of those things, but it's still just as real and pervasive as anything else that is real. It's a consequence of an action, so to speak, in that actions which utilize the "dark side" will always have negative repercussions in one way or another, whether they're immediate or not, regardless of the intent or the purpose behind the action or person, but not because there's something out there waiting to make it happen or anything as contrived as that but more because it's a universal law of sorts - sort of like how the laws of thermodynamics don't apply just because there's some unseen sentience in kinetic or potential energy, it's just how things work. The actual consequence isn't specific, it isn't always proportionate, and is usually something that happens much later. The whole corruptive narrative thing is a bit more nuanced to me, part of it is just the psychological rush from control/power/etc, the other is more force-related (like corrupting someone else with the force itself, I just don't tend to interpret using the dark side as having this same kind of "corruption" and more it being the psychological sort mentioned before).

 

[Zark San Tekka]

Agree with a lot of what Bernard wrote. Not a huge fan of authors like Matthew Stover and Aaron Allston as I believe they project a lot of western conceptualizations onto the Force so they try and reduce it to a non-spiritual power source. The Force is based in eastern religious traditions so the yin/yang lightside/darkside dynamic is a crucial part of its emphasis on destiny and balance with the natural world. Many seem to apply classic D&D tropes and see the darkside as some kind of evil god or demonic possession robbing characters of agency/absolving them of their actions. I don't believe it's a binary choice between the actual touch of satan and a dysfunctional Jedi Order founded entirely in false dogma and burning Sith witches at the stake.

Spiritual corruption means something different in the east. Dharma is cosmic law, it doesn't speak or think god thoughts but the universe has a kind of intention. There is a balance being maintained which our actions can influence. That influence is sympathetic, so when you influence the darkside it also influences you. I've never imagined like a Mr. Darkside consciously manifesting that influence. The Force is meant to be mystical, but treating it as 'divine' with purely Judeo-Christian or Gygaxian connotations is bound to lead to confusion between interpretations.

That said I've met plenty of people who are all in on the Army of Light give me more of that Force Jesus style and there is certainly no shortage of people who prefer it as One Big Metaphor so I'm not trying to convince anybody about anything. Enjoy it how you want to enjoy it, the Force is vague enough that it works for everyone on purpose.

 

[Shade of Decay]

dark side give easy power but now my body is trying to turn into sludge and i just astral project when i need to talk to people

also titled:

Rotting Sith Clone Man Review | AHELP: Tsisaar Grief Pls Ban He

 

[Kai Bamarri]

I always approach it in that the Force has a will but it cannot make you do anything you genuinely don't want to do. It merely takes advantage of something you would have eventually tried to do (or not do) by other means were it not around.

This passive cosmic balance-keeper idea doesn't sound too different from the amoral and apathetic balance-keeper Darth Empyrean described. Wild.

In my mind, it's not about what you do, it's about how you do it.

Maybe I'm dense, maybe it's Maybelline, but I can't quite figure out how your opening statement relates to the rest of your post. In a world where good people sometimes do bad things and bad people sometimes do good things, and in light of what I've already said criticizing the idea of Force powers being assigned alignments, I'd say it all boils down to doing the right thing, regardless of how or why.

I know that you love the Dresden Files, and that "my beliefs give me power" notion sounds a lot like how magic works in that world. I should stress, while I belong to the Cult of Matthew Stover™ and love the western psychological angle he posits, I don't want to completely suck out all the spiritual or mystical elements of the Force. That stuff can be super interesting. I just feel like it's usually underdeveloped by writers who don't know how to depict spirituality in an engaging way.

While we're on the topic, I am not a fan of the Netherworld. It's become a thing here on Chaos, which is fine, I'm not going to tell anyone what they can and can't write about here, but I really really dislike the depiction of it as The Afterlife. Having the afterlife be a tangible place that the living can casually visit drives me up the wall, because it skewers the ambiguity of it all. I'd enjoy it a lot more if it was a dreamlike alternate dimension that we could astral-project to for funsies, not the place where we all end up when we die.

And so, I mean as a personal sidetrack for me, this is why I despise the idea of "Ashla" and "Declan" or whatever the whole "force personified" stuff is. My preference is for it to just be an unknowing force that is ever-present and sort of felt but not seen.

I also dislike the Ashla/Bogan stuff, although I have enjoyed what some writers here on Chaos have done with it as far as worldbuilding and writing characters who do view the Force through that lens. If we're talking about the "reality" of the Force, though, I much prefer for it to be left ambiguous.

I wanna give a heavily generalizing hot take. Writing the dark side in tune with the original depiction is hard because people generally don't like to write their characters as vulnerable or weak and because of that the dark side and power as a corrupting force isn't something people generally think about. i.e. who would ever realistically depict the disadvantages of power in a power fantasy? What is a realistic depiction anyways?

I try to avoid using the word "realistic" when talking about this for precisely that reason. Fiction mimics reality, and there are indeed cases of people who are just plain jerks, or who are "not guilty by reason of insanity". If anything, I criticize writing that relies on these tropes because more complex characterization is difficult, or yes, because it comes across as the writer wanting to live out a power fantasy through their characters more than they want to tell a story.

You also touched a little bit on the usual depiction of the Jedi vs. Sith conflict as order vs. chaos. Shatterpoint went into that further, with Mace Windu saying that the Jedi and the Republic stood for civilization. Given that Shatterpoint was heavily inspired by Apocalypse Now, which was in turn an adaptation of Heart of Darkness, you can make of that what you will.

The dark side itself is to me just selfishness, amorality, lack of empathy, naked pursuit of power. It's a self-centred spiral. Power corrupts... or rather it reveals. And it gives you a rush of sorts, always leaving you wanting more.

Don't have much to say about this except that I really like how you worded it.

Not a huge fan of authors like Matthew Stover and Aaron Allston as I believe they project a lot of western conceptualizations onto the Force so they try and reduce it to a non-spiritual power source. The Force is based in eastern religious traditions so the yin/yang lightside/darkside dynamic is a crucial part of its emphasis on destiny and balance with the natural world. Many seem to apply classic D&D tropes and see the darkside as some kind of evil god or demonic possession robbing characters of agency/absolving them of their actions. I don't believe it's a binary choice between the actual touch of satan and a dysfunctional Jedi Order founded entirely in false dogma and burning Sith witches at the stake.

Idk about Aaron Allston, but Matthew Stover does tend to go with the more psychological take. I like it, though. But I thought the most controversial thing he ever wrote was Vergere telling Jacen that there was no Dark Side to the Force, which I interpreted as a response to Jacen's childish belief that the Dark Side was an entity that could corrupt him, much like a demonic presence or force.

I recall Lucas stating in an interview that he came up with the Force by deriving elements from all the major religions. While it is certainly derivative of eastern spirituality, I'd consider it flexible enough to hang western ideas upon without breaking. I guess I'm more afraid that any writer who tries to go with an explicitly religious angle will come across as cringe, because I don't know many writers who can pull off writing about a fictional quasi-religion in a way that isn't contrived, silly, or incomprehensible. We already know it's gonna be derivative of real world religions, so I guess the best step you could take would be to just write what you know and hope that you do know something. Or at least that you'll figure something out while writing.

... yeah, that makes sense. Right?

dark side give easy power but now my body is trying to turn into sludge and i just astral project when i need to talk to people

omg same, we should astral project together some time

 

[Shade of Decay]

omg same, we should astral project together some time

before we do that i have to know

what's your favourite flavour of pain

 

[Kai Bamarri]

before we do that i have to know

what's your favourite flavour of pain

is this a trick question? elbow pain, of course.

(emotional pain is a close second.)

 

[Bernard]

You also touched a little bit on the usual depiction of the Jedi vs. Sith conflict as order vs. chaos.

It's less Order vs Chaos and more personal Order vs universal Order, if that makes sense. There's a concept in greek philosophy called the "logos," it's a sort of divine order according to which all things are supposed to act, Dharma and Kharma are related to this as well, as they're conceptually similar. The Force in the way it's represented in the OT, as a thing that guides everything and as something to which Jedi are supposed to "bend," appears to be pretty similar to this sort of divine "logos."

The Sith, who seek to bend the Force to their will are depicted as acting against this order, by placing themselves above the "logos" of the Force and trying to control destiny/fate that way. A lot of my understanding of the Dark vs Light conflict comes from that, and in turn, the way I look at the Dark Side is as a counterpart to this self-sacrificial alignment with the Force/"logos". Any action that goes against a greater universal order and is purely self-serving or seeks to impose your own will on the galaxy somehow thereby becomes an action motivated from the Dark Side.

An effective depiction would be to show a character exhibiting more traits associated with the Dark Side when they start to act from "Dark Side place", i.e. one that is self-serving/will imposing, imo (through physical degradation, heightened emotionality, callousness, self-interest, and/or addiction to power/the Dark Side/themselves over anything else.)

EDIT: I initially interpreted it as Jedi = Chaos, Sith = Order, which I think might have been the inverse of what you meant. Either way, the Sith also seek Order, IMO, not Chaos, just an Order that aligns with their personal beliefs rather than some higher ideal, as they themselves see themselves as the "perfect ideal" to strive towards. At least if you interpret the Sith Code in a way where its ultimate purpose is to achieve perfection, to become the perfect being and the "Sith'ari", the ideal everyone should strive to be.

So kind of more Individual vs Collective than Chaos vs Order.

EDIT2: Running more with that idea of Sith'ari, it kind of explains why the Sith can be so weirdly self-sacrifical in the Bane-ite Tradition. Because if they accept the rules of trying to be a perfect being, then if someone beats them, then that being is "more perfect" than they are. In a way? Does that make sense at all?