D O M I N U S
Lengthy rebuttal goes here.
I'll take my haha reacts now.
I'll take my haha reacts now.
Star Wars Roleplay: Chaos
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Question Major Factions, can you stop trying to pander to every idea?
One Eyed
Part of me agrees whole heartedly with this statement and it mainly comes back from my first time attempting to enjoy the Forum Roleplay style. The issue at large has never been truly, whose friends can rub on whose, but the inclusion of letting others enjoy roleplaying with others. I been part of several Major Factions that have started up and died over the years as I found more enjoyment being with others in new ideas.
Haon Hafey is a former Metal Lord of the Metal Lords of the Void that was human and was a strange moment in the whole Major Faction. At some point, I was honestly going to make him a Replica Droid but it never came up until just very recently when he got shot into space. I enjoyed the Droid Faction but it never really went anywhere sadly and died off. Black Sun was another but it only lasted for a very brief time and my memory does not remember little or any of it.
Given that, Jegy Sesara whom was another character made a return to the Ashlan Imperium (if memory serves) and had a lot of fun playing a more authoritarian Jedi. A story of redemption I never thought I could write up which sadly, also ended but more of the destruction of such ideas due to the Alliance which became the Galactic Alliance. While the Ashlan Crusade exists, I never been comfortable going back after all these years since the landscape of who they are changed so drastically.
Zweihander Union was another big one I been a part of and supplied quite a bit of starships. Haon Hafey was more of a central character there but so was Jegy Sesara, having to explain different scenarios to each person and of course, having to fight back against certain forces such as the Galactic Alliance and New Imperial Order. But this fell apart as well, not mainly due to numbers but due to hostilities behind the scenes on how the direction of the Major Faction was going. Part of what Tefka says, does resonate here but also somewhat the hostility on people of the board.
Callum Saville whom was a mercenary, I actually did have fun with. It is a walker based company and was a decent place to have fun with for a while. Yes, it could be considered a phase but I settled in with Eternal Empire but...well, it did not really end out well on my end. I was suffering burnout and part of that was the reason I left which thankfully, they are still around.
My current Major Faction is of Dalos Cameron, a man without memory walking with the Brotherhood of the Maw which is interesting to say the least. While I do not see anything bad happening, I know that at some point, warfare will break out again and I worry at times if this is a repeat of the Ashlan Imperium or Zweihander Union problems again.
Now, I never mentioned any of the really big, long term Major Factions from either time forgotten or current but it goes without saying I have problems with them on some level since they been on the board, mostly on the attempts of joining them. This is not to be a bashing comment, this is mainly to just relate to what Tefka wrote on Cliques and catering to other characters.
Sith Empire to some people, been known more as a Clique of characters and been rather difficult to write characters with which, take it as you will, I had trouble figuring out what to write. I will admit that their characters were beyond interesting and the stories told, I could honestly tell to a group of friends at the Warhammer store and they have a blast hearing about them. I think the main problem was that I never been a true bad guy character and with some huddled in their bubble, it was hard to get in. Note also, I have tried for several years coming in and out to try over and over, a lot more near the end. Instead, I mainly faltered and gave up due to the constant invasions and surrounding storyline to them.
Silver Jedi Concord AKA the Silver Jedi Order AKA whatever their name is SoonTM, I never could get along with. The two or three times, I made some form of attempt to talk through roleplay or introduce, I was shot down so badly that I began to wonder if they were even really Jedi. Even in roleplay forums when I make an active attempt to introduce my characters, I was either ignored or they kept going through the story without even a mere mention with their own groups of friends being used like a Clique. The last attempt was about two years ago with a brand new character and, without going into much detail, I tried again and was given a Discord message that might as well said "Fuck You" in response for attempting to join a peaceful thread about meditation. After that, I never wished to be part of that mess again. This is not against everyone in the Silver Jedi Concord as there is obviously good people, but after that reception, I have no desire to be near them.
Outer Planetary Alliance AKA Outer Rim Coalition, I have no real words for. A Major Faction of the show FRIENDS was all I ever thought of it being but maybe I was wrong, but I never understood really the idea of what it meant to be in it. Maybe that was the problem, I never understood it. When I had characters there, they never fit into any scenario and were just hanging in the wind.
Galactic Alliance I was part of for only a month or two before leaving. I will admit, I was being salty over Ashlan Imperium being reduced to a footnote and about everything on them vanishing without a trace. I felt more betrayed than anything else but I never truly thought it was a bad faction, not even for a fraction of a second. It is a different faction all together and actually works on their ideas, surprisingly well. I am not saying Cliques or those of the following, but it was different, just perhaps not for me nor do I think I could go back due to the history presented.
New Imperial Order is perhaps the one, I may get dragged, strung up and burned at the stake. I have no desire whatsoever to be near them and that may be a good thing. I don't know them personally that well, but most discussions I been part of has generally devolved into either revenge against factions or whenever they get very salty on losing. I have a character that was part of the Galactic Empire and I know could fit, but every single time I think about it, I don't wish to be part of that drama. To those that enjoy it, I am glad but it is not for me.
These are my thoughts, you can take the two cents to buy a coffee or light this all on fire. To me though, the massive major factions I ran across over the years, are almost never worth it.
Haon Hafey is a former Metal Lord of the Metal Lords of the Void that was human and was a strange moment in the whole Major Faction. At some point, I was honestly going to make him a Replica Droid but it never came up until just very recently when he got shot into space. I enjoyed the Droid Faction but it never really went anywhere sadly and died off. Black Sun was another but it only lasted for a very brief time and my memory does not remember little or any of it.
Given that, Jegy Sesara whom was another character made a return to the Ashlan Imperium (if memory serves) and had a lot of fun playing a more authoritarian Jedi. A story of redemption I never thought I could write up which sadly, also ended but more of the destruction of such ideas due to the Alliance which became the Galactic Alliance. While the Ashlan Crusade exists, I never been comfortable going back after all these years since the landscape of who they are changed so drastically.
Zweihander Union was another big one I been a part of and supplied quite a bit of starships. Haon Hafey was more of a central character there but so was Jegy Sesara, having to explain different scenarios to each person and of course, having to fight back against certain forces such as the Galactic Alliance and New Imperial Order. But this fell apart as well, not mainly due to numbers but due to hostilities behind the scenes on how the direction of the Major Faction was going. Part of what Tefka says, does resonate here but also somewhat the hostility on people of the board.
Callum Saville whom was a mercenary, I actually did have fun with. It is a walker based company and was a decent place to have fun with for a while. Yes, it could be considered a phase but I settled in with Eternal Empire but...well, it did not really end out well on my end. I was suffering burnout and part of that was the reason I left which thankfully, they are still around.
My current Major Faction is of Dalos Cameron, a man without memory walking with the Brotherhood of the Maw which is interesting to say the least. While I do not see anything bad happening, I know that at some point, warfare will break out again and I worry at times if this is a repeat of the Ashlan Imperium or Zweihander Union problems again.
Now, I never mentioned any of the really big, long term Major Factions from either time forgotten or current but it goes without saying I have problems with them on some level since they been on the board, mostly on the attempts of joining them. This is not to be a bashing comment, this is mainly to just relate to what Tefka wrote on Cliques and catering to other characters.
Sith Empire to some people, been known more as a Clique of characters and been rather difficult to write characters with which, take it as you will, I had trouble figuring out what to write. I will admit that their characters were beyond interesting and the stories told, I could honestly tell to a group of friends at the Warhammer store and they have a blast hearing about them. I think the main problem was that I never been a true bad guy character and with some huddled in their bubble, it was hard to get in. Note also, I have tried for several years coming in and out to try over and over, a lot more near the end. Instead, I mainly faltered and gave up due to the constant invasions and surrounding storyline to them.
Silver Jedi Concord AKA the Silver Jedi Order AKA whatever their name is SoonTM, I never could get along with. The two or three times, I made some form of attempt to talk through roleplay or introduce, I was shot down so badly that I began to wonder if they were even really Jedi. Even in roleplay forums when I make an active attempt to introduce my characters, I was either ignored or they kept going through the story without even a mere mention with their own groups of friends being used like a Clique. The last attempt was about two years ago with a brand new character and, without going into much detail, I tried again and was given a Discord message that might as well said "Fuck You" in response for attempting to join a peaceful thread about meditation. After that, I never wished to be part of that mess again. This is not against everyone in the Silver Jedi Concord as there is obviously good people, but after that reception, I have no desire to be near them.
Outer Planetary Alliance AKA Outer Rim Coalition, I have no real words for. A Major Faction of the show FRIENDS was all I ever thought of it being but maybe I was wrong, but I never understood really the idea of what it meant to be in it. Maybe that was the problem, I never understood it. When I had characters there, they never fit into any scenario and were just hanging in the wind.
Galactic Alliance I was part of for only a month or two before leaving. I will admit, I was being salty over Ashlan Imperium being reduced to a footnote and about everything on them vanishing without a trace. I felt more betrayed than anything else but I never truly thought it was a bad faction, not even for a fraction of a second. It is a different faction all together and actually works on their ideas, surprisingly well. I am not saying Cliques or those of the following, but it was different, just perhaps not for me nor do I think I could go back due to the history presented.
New Imperial Order is perhaps the one, I may get dragged, strung up and burned at the stake. I have no desire whatsoever to be near them and that may be a good thing. I don't know them personally that well, but most discussions I been part of has generally devolved into either revenge against factions or whenever they get very salty on losing. I have a character that was part of the Galactic Empire and I know could fit, but every single time I think about it, I don't wish to be part of that drama. To those that enjoy it, I am glad but it is not for me.
These are my thoughts, you can take the two cents to buy a coffee or light this all on fire. To me though, the massive major factions I ran across over the years, are almost never worth it.
The Doppelganger
Oh yeah, if we're just talking strictly about MFs being cliques, that's absolutely the case with several of them. Or at least, in my experience it was that way. But as a friend once explained it to me, that's because people generally enjoy writing with people that they know and are comfortable with. A new writer is risky, you don't know if they can be trusted or if writing with them will be fun.
In all honesty, that's just the way most social interactions tend to be. You don't become friends with someone instantly, you have to get to know them first. You can argue that the average new writer on the board won't have the patience to wait as long as I did before things really got "good" - and I admit, my staying here had a lot to do with boredom and depression during quarantine - but I did meet some really awesome people and it encouraged me to stay and keep writing here. The system is also pretty good and it works, even with its flaws. It's like a sub, it's gotta have at least 2 weaknesses minimum, y'know?
Anyway, I think I'm done talking about this topic for now. If any of you say anything else that's interesting, maybe I'll post again, otherwise lol.
In all honesty, that's just the way most social interactions tend to be. You don't become friends with someone instantly, you have to get to know them first. You can argue that the average new writer on the board won't have the patience to wait as long as I did before things really got "good" - and I admit, my staying here had a lot to do with boredom and depression during quarantine - but I did meet some really awesome people and it encouraged me to stay and keep writing here. The system is also pretty good and it works, even with its flaws. It's like a sub, it's gotta have at least 2 weaknesses minimum, y'know?
Anyway, I think I'm done talking about this topic for now. If any of you say anything else that's interesting, maybe I'll post again, otherwise lol.
Kitter Bitters
OOC Account
I feel like this was my fault for asking if Black Sun was part of the Eternal Empire. :/
Forged in Fire
Ok I haha react x10?
Gotta be real, I don't see the connection between cliques and the issue of 101 subfactions. Actually, some of the places I encountered as an early writer on this site with a ton of stuff under their umbrella, like EE, were quite welcoming to a newbie.
I'm not a fan either, 'cause major factions begin to lose identity with 'em, but live and let live. Chaos is a sandbox, maybe let folks do them instead of posting another boomer opinion piece. If it's that bad off, they probably won't be major for long, anyways.
Gotta be real, I don't see the connection between cliques and the issue of 101 subfactions. Actually, some of the places I encountered as an early writer on this site with a ton of stuff under their umbrella, like EE, were quite welcoming to a newbie.
I'm not a fan either, 'cause major factions begin to lose identity with 'em, but live and let live. Chaos is a sandbox, maybe let folks do them instead of posting another boomer opinion piece. If it's that bad off, they probably won't be major for long, anyways.
old money
If you want new members but your subfaction has no story and is cliquey, people will go elsewhere. If you create a subfaction so you can write with your friends, so be it. Let the market decide.
L Admin
Well-Known Member
I gotta be honest I'm a little confused by the rationale here.
You want to mitigate or avoid cliques, so you suggest that the major factions be less inclusive to competing story concepts under their umbrella? You want sameness, in order to avoid cliques?
Honestly, I don't see how that tracks.
I mean, yeah, it is pretty annoying when a supposedly unified government that is openly home to both Jedi, Sith, and every other denomination in the same congress. I don't think that is common and don't last long when that's the case. What I think is probably more common, is a MF setting with internal conflict. One of these faces is dominant, let's say a republic. The other is criminal. Sometimes their interests align (bribes, crooked politics, defense of their world from invasion, hired mercs, etc.) but you won't see a republic politician arguing the finer points of law with a common street rat unless the politician is crooked too or is taking the street rat in to reform them.
It also helps newbies stand out creatively. If everyone is a Jedi in a Jedi faction. Hiw are they going to stand out? Maybe instead of being a gunho warrior on the front lines, they choose to be a political advisor (I know of at least one very notable case). But who are they going to write with, unless someone makes a non-Jedi politician? If that's allowed, then what's to stop a future politician down the line to go crooked? If there is a crooked politician, why not just a crook?
Personally, I think that's much more interesting, nuanced, and attractive to me. I don't want to be Jedi copy number 47 with one of three pre-approved colors.
You want to mitigate or avoid cliques, so you suggest that the major factions be less inclusive to competing story concepts under their umbrella? You want sameness, in order to avoid cliques?
Honestly, I don't see how that tracks.
I mean, yeah, it is pretty annoying when a supposedly unified government that is openly home to both Jedi, Sith, and every other denomination in the same congress. I don't think that is common and don't last long when that's the case. What I think is probably more common, is a MF setting with internal conflict. One of these faces is dominant, let's say a republic. The other is criminal. Sometimes their interests align (bribes, crooked politics, defense of their world from invasion, hired mercs, etc.) but you won't see a republic politician arguing the finer points of law with a common street rat unless the politician is crooked too or is taking the street rat in to reform them.
It also helps newbies stand out creatively. If everyone is a Jedi in a Jedi faction. Hiw are they going to stand out? Maybe instead of being a gunho warrior on the front lines, they choose to be a political advisor (I know of at least one very notable case). But who are they going to write with, unless someone makes a non-Jedi politician? If that's allowed, then what's to stop a future politician down the line to go crooked? If there is a crooked politician, why not just a crook?
Personally, I think that's much more interesting, nuanced, and attractive to me. I don't want to be Jedi copy number 47 with one of three pre-approved colors.
Administrator
Ha, he called you old.
This might just be an optimistic/boomer opinion, however, I think that the "bit o' everything" mindset is partially our fault. Why?
Activity Checks.
They were a big driving force that pushed Factions to show and prove a particular kind of activity in a metic that we maintained. Due to the nature of it we didn't have solid "concrete" parameters but it made the factions do a mad dash scramble to include as much as they could so they could produce as much as they could. Since we've changed how that works - I think that the days of adding everything and the kitchen sink will organically die over time unless the group has a good reason to be there. (Looking at all you guys who mentioned Sub-Factions. I track, you made sense.)
The point, I suppose, is that specific pressure is off.
Writers will eventually realize that they can focus more on "story/narrative" and less on numbers. Friend groups will always exist in writing communities because we tend to gravitate toward things we like, people we like, and there's nothing wrong with that. Cliques can develop one way or the other in any setting that offers PVP in which an "us" versus "them" mindset can take hold. It happens in games all the time, even in harmless ways. (Ex. PC Users vs Console, Healers Vs DPS, etc...)
The trick IMO (feel free to disagree ofc) is just to be mindful of it. To not delude ourselves by pretending it "doesn't exist" and just do our best not to let it get out of hand. We're all here to have fun, tell stories, and enjoy Star Wars to the fullest. I'm down for doing that.
Cedric Grayson
Ashlan Kaiser
I think some people get along with certain people and sometimes people don't get along at all. Minor factions serving as opposition within a major makes RP easier because you know the people you're writing against care more about the story between the two of you than winning/pushing a particular narrative. RPing with folks you do not know/outside of your faction does not have that reassurance. Often times it results in some dude trying to push his superiority complex/IRL issues onto you via writing. It's easier/more comfortable to write against a minor faction within your own faction, rather than a stranger from a wholly different faction that may have ulterior OOC motives which inevitably make the RP feel unpleasant and destructive toward your immersion.
TLDR: I get where you are coming from wholeheartedly, but the fact of the matter is that it is far more comfortable to have an antagonist you are familiar with than to hope some random guy from some other sub-community will care about your story or treat you as well OOCly as someone you are familiar with. If you want to destroy cliques, then you have to incentive RPing outside of your comfort zone. Currently the only incentives toward that are invasions, UW credits, and junctions, the former of which are hostile in nature. I like what you're doing with the credit system. Maybe some form of reward toward being a balanced antagonist toward other factions might help destroy this 'clique' issue.
As of now, why would I choose to write with a Sith or a criminal character outside of my faction when I know there is zero reason for them to give a damn about the story, and a 90% possibility they are only there to fulfill whatever power fantasy they've chosen for this week. I know if I thread with my faction member, I'm going to get something compelling. If I thread with 'Woshno' from some random group, there is a high chance he's going to turn this thread into 'I am so powerful, and this is why you must bow before me.' It's a waste of time, and most of us don't have time to waste given the pressures of RL.
Incentive proper antagonism and your cliques will die. As it is now, threading outside of the group you know is a large risk when considering the time you waste in doing it, and oh-so-often results in nothing other than validating how cool some stranger's character is.
TLDR: I get where you are coming from wholeheartedly, but the fact of the matter is that it is far more comfortable to have an antagonist you are familiar with than to hope some random guy from some other sub-community will care about your story or treat you as well OOCly as someone you are familiar with. If you want to destroy cliques, then you have to incentive RPing outside of your comfort zone. Currently the only incentives toward that are invasions, UW credits, and junctions, the former of which are hostile in nature. I like what you're doing with the credit system. Maybe some form of reward toward being a balanced antagonist toward other factions might help destroy this 'clique' issue.
As of now, why would I choose to write with a Sith or a criminal character outside of my faction when I know there is zero reason for them to give a damn about the story, and a 90% possibility they are only there to fulfill whatever power fantasy they've chosen for this week. I know if I thread with my faction member, I'm going to get something compelling. If I thread with 'Woshno' from some random group, there is a high chance he's going to turn this thread into 'I am so powerful, and this is why you must bow before me.' It's a waste of time, and most of us don't have time to waste given the pressures of RL.
Incentive proper antagonism and your cliques will die. As it is now, threading outside of the group you know is a large risk when considering the time you waste in doing it, and oh-so-often results in nothing other than validating how cool some stranger's character is.
the Kid for the Win
Yeah, basically.
I found it was difficult to plan threads with certain MFO's because they had an idea of what their faction had to be. Straying from that idea seemed like it would somehow destroy everything that faction worked to achieve or something. Kinda silly.
You get this a lot more with individuals. I wrote
Ryv
consistently for about a year, and on and off for some irrelevant stretch of time after that. I took part in like 10+ invasions, reached out to other writers, and tried to plan the narrative in a way both parties could feel fulfilled. The result?
My character took nothing but Ls in every PvP encounter he was ever a part of because other people enjoy writing unbeatable characters. Kills my desire to interact with other writers, cause it was something close to 20 straight encounters of the same dumb shit, with 15 or so unique writers. I know there are people in this community that aren't that way, but it's a coin toss. One usual not worth the time or effort.
Relationship Status: It's Complicated
It‘s always been my thought that sub-factions dilute and destroy to the faction identity the point I would often push to nuke them entirely. It’s okay for an idea or concept to not fit. What we’ve seen over the past couple of years is that factions were quick to make a sub-faction of groups which already had factions on Chaos for whatever reasons they had.
My best guess is people just didn’t want to actually deal with people outside their friend groups, or those they deemed toxic for their own reasons.
I spent the last 2 months in transition IRL and over that time I found myself floating around several of the Major Faction discord servers… turns out there are a lot of great ideas out there and for the community to benefit the most, we should get out from under our rocks a lot more to figure that out.
If nuking sub-factions helps facilitate that… I’m here for it.
My best guess is people just didn’t want to actually deal with people outside their friend groups, or those they deemed toxic for their own reasons.
I spent the last 2 months in transition IRL and over that time I found myself floating around several of the Major Faction discord servers… turns out there are a lot of great ideas out there and for the community to benefit the most, we should get out from under our rocks a lot more to figure that out.
If nuking sub-factions helps facilitate that… I’m here for it.
Captain Ash
I was 100 perfect serious about getting rid of subfactions, pretty much for the reasons Gerwald listed, and even more so for the reasons people say they’re good.
1. They limit interactions between broader groups of people, which is how we run into problems of antagonism and power fantasies, because we don’t see the people behind the characters. So of course it seems like they don’t care about the story, they’re just an Enemy to be defeated. If they didn’t care about story, they wouldn’t be on a writing forum, and probably wouldn’t last very long. The fact is their idea of story is probably just different, which is best mitigated by taking to them and engaging with people outside the faction bubble. Subfactions make it unnecessary and further isolate the walls between groups.
2. They’re basically monopolies. Diversity of ideas and groups are good! It’s what makes the flourish and helps everyone find their own sort of place. No subfactions means more minor factions, which means more activity, generally. With subfactions, however, the smaller, more niche areas that would traditionally be a minor faction (like a criminal organization or a rebel faction or an academic faction or an exploring faction) is more or less subsumed by the major faction. Essentially, you have the big chain stores buying up the local mom and pop shops, dictating how they function, what they do, and their culture, when really, they are separate and distinct groups that should stand on their own.
3. Yes, it dilutes the major faction identity to essentially becoming just, we all like writing together so we’ll do everything together, even if other people are doing the same thing already. A friend group can have multiple separate factions ongoing. They don’t all need to be the same one.
4. Imma be real with y’all, I grew up in American fundie-lite evangelicalism. Making tons of subgroups to do different things with the same people is the exact same dynamic. It doesn’t make things better. It created echo chambers super rigid and in-group/out-group divides. Contrary to what everyone told me growing up, it doesn’t actually make life, or stories, better. They get stale because there are no new fresh ideas, no new fresh perspectives, no fresh energy, or anything to keep a group vibrant or thriving over time.
5. Subfactions are not the same as faction groups. By this, I mean, that a subfaction usually has a distinct identity entirely separate from the hosting major faction. Their themes are different, their focus is different, the genres can even be different, and their stories can be fundamentally different. That’s not the same as a Jedi Order, a Clone Army, a Republic Navy, and a Senate all being in the same faction, because those are all very closely tied together. I mentioned a few years back how factions are like dnd campaigns, and people didn’t like that. But I still stick with it. Each faction is telling its own narrative, even via different groups. A subfaction is essentially a separate campaign narrative. Like my League, for example, has politicians, free traders, mystics, rangers, etc. They’re all part of the same narrative of generally heroic, if perhaps chaotic and legally ambiguous people, trying to make the Outer Rim a better place for people to live. Of course there’s different archetypes, but they all form a semi cohesive narrative arc. If I went and made a crusading Mandalorian subfaction, that would be a huge tonal, thematic, and narrative shift. It wouldn’t be a cohesive identity outside the same writers. It would be better to spin that off into its own faction. Of course there’s different groups within major factions. They’re usually more or less governments of some sort or another, or at least some sort of society, which has various groups. But that doesn’t make Jedi Sentinels a subfaction of the Jedi Order, for one example. They’re just a somewhat different perspective on the overall Jedi narrative.
And yea, I can definitely agree with Srina that the pressure for numbers of members and posts plays a big part of it. I considered making subfactions in the League to try and bring in more people to have more activity. It’s a quick and seemingly easy way to boost those, but I don’t think it would have helped the faction any in tbe long run to maintain the stories I initially wanted to tell. So if we can end that pressure, I think we’ll be much better off letting there be more diverse factions doing different things than essentially consolidating everything under a few major factions.
1. They limit interactions between broader groups of people, which is how we run into problems of antagonism and power fantasies, because we don’t see the people behind the characters. So of course it seems like they don’t care about the story, they’re just an Enemy to be defeated. If they didn’t care about story, they wouldn’t be on a writing forum, and probably wouldn’t last very long. The fact is their idea of story is probably just different, which is best mitigated by taking to them and engaging with people outside the faction bubble. Subfactions make it unnecessary and further isolate the walls between groups.
2. They’re basically monopolies. Diversity of ideas and groups are good! It’s what makes the flourish and helps everyone find their own sort of place. No subfactions means more minor factions, which means more activity, generally. With subfactions, however, the smaller, more niche areas that would traditionally be a minor faction (like a criminal organization or a rebel faction or an academic faction or an exploring faction) is more or less subsumed by the major faction. Essentially, you have the big chain stores buying up the local mom and pop shops, dictating how they function, what they do, and their culture, when really, they are separate and distinct groups that should stand on their own.
3. Yes, it dilutes the major faction identity to essentially becoming just, we all like writing together so we’ll do everything together, even if other people are doing the same thing already. A friend group can have multiple separate factions ongoing. They don’t all need to be the same one.
4. Imma be real with y’all, I grew up in American fundie-lite evangelicalism. Making tons of subgroups to do different things with the same people is the exact same dynamic. It doesn’t make things better. It created echo chambers super rigid and in-group/out-group divides. Contrary to what everyone told me growing up, it doesn’t actually make life, or stories, better. They get stale because there are no new fresh ideas, no new fresh perspectives, no fresh energy, or anything to keep a group vibrant or thriving over time.
5. Subfactions are not the same as faction groups. By this, I mean, that a subfaction usually has a distinct identity entirely separate from the hosting major faction. Their themes are different, their focus is different, the genres can even be different, and their stories can be fundamentally different. That’s not the same as a Jedi Order, a Clone Army, a Republic Navy, and a Senate all being in the same faction, because those are all very closely tied together. I mentioned a few years back how factions are like dnd campaigns, and people didn’t like that. But I still stick with it. Each faction is telling its own narrative, even via different groups. A subfaction is essentially a separate campaign narrative. Like my League, for example, has politicians, free traders, mystics, rangers, etc. They’re all part of the same narrative of generally heroic, if perhaps chaotic and legally ambiguous people, trying to make the Outer Rim a better place for people to live. Of course there’s different archetypes, but they all form a semi cohesive narrative arc. If I went and made a crusading Mandalorian subfaction, that would be a huge tonal, thematic, and narrative shift. It wouldn’t be a cohesive identity outside the same writers. It would be better to spin that off into its own faction. Of course there’s different groups within major factions. They’re usually more or less governments of some sort or another, or at least some sort of society, which has various groups. But that doesn’t make Jedi Sentinels a subfaction of the Jedi Order, for one example. They’re just a somewhat different perspective on the overall Jedi narrative.
And yea, I can definitely agree with Srina that the pressure for numbers of members and posts plays a big part of it. I considered making subfactions in the League to try and bring in more people to have more activity. It’s a quick and seemingly easy way to boost those, but I don’t think it would have helped the faction any in tbe long run to maintain the stories I initially wanted to tell. So if we can end that pressure, I think we’ll be much better off letting there be more diverse factions doing different things than essentially consolidating everything under a few major factions.
lol. Nobody is saying get rid of subfactions, just stop creating your own self-contained opposition and RP with other people who aren't in your faction. There shouldn't be a Jedi subfactions in a Sith major, or vice versa, to create a controlled narrative that doesn't include anyone except yourselves.
This extends to an uber lawful alignment faction making a super chaotic criminal underground subfaction.
You may ask why, and the reason is it removes competition by creating a monopoly. The reason groups like the New Imperial Order or Silver Jedi exist is because rather than just making a neutered subfaction to act as the opposition to their original characters' home group they went and risked doing things on their own. It's how the forum grows.
Your faction doesn't need to be everything.
This extends to an uber lawful alignment faction making a super chaotic criminal underground subfaction.
You may ask why, and the reason is it removes competition by creating a monopoly. The reason groups like the New Imperial Order or Silver Jedi exist is because rather than just making a neutered subfaction to act as the opposition to their original characters' home group they went and risked doing things on their own. It's how the forum grows.
Your faction doesn't need to be everything.
Aeshi Tillian
While I can agree with a lot of what you've mentioned, I think you're too concrete on your definition of a subfaction. Subfactions can be all of those things; whether it be a Jedi Order in a faction that is trying to be mostly about the Senate-style RP of a Galactic Republic for the sake of having a minor faction dedicated just for that specific slice of content in order to avoid Jedi RP stuff getting lost in a sea of economics, or the issue at present: an opposition group meant to attract writers or serve as a place for alts to be made for so that the major faction has total control over how their interactions go.Factions, at least on this forum, are much more nuanced than people give them credit - or at least the system is. It allows for a lot of different purposes to be fulfilled by a subfaction, and usually - or at least traditionally - it's done so that groups of a more niche section of the overarching major faction group can keep all of their stuff tucked away without having to sift through unrelated stuff (for all intents and purposes, from the perspective of the people who only care about the niche that subfaction fulfills). Back in the older forum, when factions had sprawling subforums, subfactions were probably not as obvious because they were held internally within the major faction forum, but nowadays those same groups have had to make their own minor factions to serve the same purpose for the sake of not having to sift through or communicate across a whole metric ton of other activity that has nothing to do with the very specific niche they are interested in.
Corporations that want to write out the business RP in a given faction landscape might create a subfaction for them to communicate stuff that has absolutely zero to do with the efforts of the Jedi in the Silver Jedi Order, at least as far as some of the less commerce-related things have to go. Stuff like that.
It's important to realize that not everyone shares the same perspective on what is or is not a subfaction, or what purpose a subfaction can or cannot fulfill. The issue is when those subfactions exist for the express purpose of creating a monopoly on the interaction that major faction has to the extent that it starts replacing the interaction that major faction should be receiving from other major/minor factions that aren't a part of that major, or is done for the sake of avoiding interacting with other majors. Both of those things are bad for the forum's health in the long run and pretty frustrating for people who might have wanted to, say, make a major faction that fills the same role as one of those kinds of subfactions but lacks the interest because those people can have safe RP in a major as internal opposition.
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Mandalorian Legend
This is probably where I'm contractually obligated to go "ree so many Mando subfactions y'all come up with original ideas."
But then again Enclave was a Mando faction so I don't really have a leg to stand on in that regards. And it's chill.
I don't think all subfactions are made the same. Some are built to provide part of a Major Faction's narrative, like perhaps an in-house antagonistic force. Some are expansions of popular in-faction concepts until someone decides they need a separate faction forum to store everything. And while, yeah, it would be rad to have a monopoly over all the Mando writers or Sith writers or Jedi writers, etc. etc. etc. you just gotta accept that people want to write with their friends. Or don't like your take on a Star Wars staple idea. Or just don't like you.
Even if subfactions were banned, they'd just become major faction divisions. It's a product of human nature.
But I'm happy to join the passive-aggressive campaign. Together we can fix this.
Mando writers out there -- mommy's waiting for you.
Captain Ash
Darth Mori
I don’t disagree with anything you’re saying! It sounds like we’re just looking at it from different sides of the same coin.
I don’t disagree with anything you’re saying! It sounds like we’re just looking at it from different sides of the same coin.
L Admin
Don't loop me in with the laugh react bums, ain't nuthin passive here.
Gluk, Stock, and Two Smoking Lasers
Largely agree with the above sentiments.
That said, there's an edge case with a lot of unrealized potential: using the pet enemy subfaction primarily to connect with/collaborate with/draw in other factions as opposition.
Probably the closest thing I've seen to this in practice is when the rebel Jedi fighting the Eternal Empire team up with external Jedi, but even that strikes me as incidental. Find a way to turn that up to 11 and pet-opposition subfactions could be genuinely useful. Sometimes.
That said, there's an edge case with a lot of unrealized potential: using the pet enemy subfaction primarily to connect with/collaborate with/draw in other factions as opposition.
Probably the closest thing I've seen to this in practice is when the rebel Jedi fighting the Eternal Empire team up with external Jedi, but even that strikes me as incidental. Find a way to turn that up to 11 and pet-opposition subfactions could be genuinely useful. Sometimes.
Faith is the heroism of the intellect.
It's funny... when I was active and actually wanted to put my characters out there, I wanted to make subfaction of the Silvers for those characters who were either in stasis, or frozen, or whatever but survivors of the Clone Wars. A lot f these poignant arguments swirled around in my head at the time and stopped me from doing so.
Won't comment on "Cliques" because that will happen no matter what you do, and you have better luck pulling teeth than getting one of the "in crowd" to do anything with you.
Indeed not all Major Factions, Minor Factions, Sub-Factions, "every other Thursday" factions whatever are made equal, but unfortunately there are many writers out there that do not get (like Kyric and a few others put out) that this is a "community". Yes, it is a game in many ways, but not the game where the one with the most toys wins. For every two writers, I see that understand that you have to give in order to get, there is at least one that is "unbeatable", which is unfortunate, and disheartening if they are called on it because most of the time there will only be issues afoot.
I remember when a writer here ghosted me in a duel because he believed that I was one of those "unbeatable" (I was not and actually thought I was quite clear in my writing, but that is neither here nor there). It actually shook me, and I disappeared for a day or two to regain perspective, but when I returned, I took a new path to duels and it was a lot more fun and allowed for a lot more creativity on both sides. We get out of it what we put into it.
I forgot what I was saying... oh yeah... stay away from my food!
Won't comment on "Cliques" because that will happen no matter what you do, and you have better luck pulling teeth than getting one of the "in crowd" to do anything with you.
Indeed not all Major Factions, Minor Factions, Sub-Factions, "every other Thursday" factions whatever are made equal, but unfortunately there are many writers out there that do not get (like Kyric and a few others put out) that this is a "community". Yes, it is a game in many ways, but not the game where the one with the most toys wins. For every two writers, I see that understand that you have to give in order to get, there is at least one that is "unbeatable", which is unfortunate, and disheartening if they are called on it because most of the time there will only be issues afoot.
I remember when a writer here ghosted me in a duel because he believed that I was one of those "unbeatable" (I was not and actually thought I was quite clear in my writing, but that is neither here nor there). It actually shook me, and I disappeared for a day or two to regain perspective, but when I returned, I took a new path to duels and it was a lot more fun and allowed for a lot more creativity on both sides. We get out of it what we put into it.
I forgot what I was saying... oh yeah... stay away from my food!