My Thoughts on the "Sith Civil War"

[Darth Ayra]

Some of you will see the title of this thread and instantly assume that this is a complaint thread. I'm over making complaints, this is just an honest critique of everyone involved.

I was reading this thread made in November that was created by the TSE. In it bounties were placed on all the leaders of the Jen'ari. This was met with some OOC hostility from [member="Darth Vyrassu"] who perceived the bounties being placed on his and his Sith Lord's characters to be from some sort of aggressive mood based entirely out of character. I know that around this time several writers from the TSE and other factions joined the Jen'ari's Discord server and according to Vyrassu some harassment took place during this time. This thread was made around the same time that this supposedly happened.

This was followed up by the declarations that the CIS and TSE planned to invade two Jen'ari hexes on January 1st and those invasions will be either concluded today or sometime later this week. I made my feelings known on these invasions and that I thought the Jen'ari would lose both of those invasions. My opinion hasn't changed.

I don't think the Jen'ari lost those invasions because there is some conspiracy between members of staff on this board nor the leaders of the CIS and TSE to eradicate the Jen'ari because they don't like the guy who writes Vyrassu nor any of their members. What I think these invasions and the bounties that were placed on Jen'ari characters were done because the Jen'ari are enemies to these factions by it's very existence. Cutting the legs from beneath an opponent before they can stand up to fight is a tried and well trusted tactic for a reason. Everyone involved in these factions supposedly practice following the ways of the dark side after all.

What I found odd about the TSE and CIS invasions were the lack of roleplay done prior to their declarations. I would love more than anything to be corrected on this part but I saw no thread between TSE and CIS leadership where these two factions co-ordinated their invasions to remove a common enemy. Perhaps it is because there was no such co-ordination between both sides. Declaring an invasion to begin on the same day doesn't seem to be a coincidence to me.

[member="Darth Carnifex"] recently set my character up at the Summit of Government threads and as I am writing this various characters are trying to kill mine. If my character cannot escape that summit alive (those targeting me are doing a great job stopping me) then she will die. I don't think Carnifex or [member="Vanessa Vantai"] set up my character because they don't like me OOC. I think they did it because my character is a (minor) thread to theirs and the Sith Empire. What they have done to Ella Nova made sense, was well executed and I welcomed it OOC. This is the type of Sith roleplay that I desire on the board. Much like with me what they and [member="Darth Metus"] have done with the Jen'ari makes sense.

So my criticism of both the TSE, CIS and Jen'ari is this: the out of character stuff doesn't matter. It doesn't matter than Vyrassu's writer doesn't like Carnifexs. It doesn't matter than I have legitimate grievances on the past behaviour of both Carnifex's and Vanessa's writers. It doesn't matter than both the TSE and CIS have more writers than the Jen'ari. The Jen'ari made their bed and now they should lay down in it. I found the concept of the Jen'ari to be a great thing for this board and the map game. There should always be opposition to those who claim to be the Dark Lord of the Sith.

When I said on my status the other week that I thought the Jen'ari would lose both of their invasions I didn't say it because I thought the TSE and CIS have an edge OOC. I said it because both the TSE and CIS are much stronger than the Jen'ari IC. As it was correctly pointed out in the aforementioned bounty thread someone said that the One Sith fought five different factions and won their war despite being outnumbered in writers as well as other things in character such as resources etc. I don't like the fact that the One Sith petered out because people got bored OOC but we don't live in a perfect world and I think that site wide event a couple of years ago was a good send off for them.

If the Jen'ari folds because OOC it's writers think that there is an OOC conspiracy against them between writers then that would be a shame. If the Jen'ari folds because the TSE and CIS crushed them at Csilla and Copero then that is great stuff and we need more of that please.

I will end this post by saying that whilst I think Vyrassu is wrong about the Jen'ari being targeted for OOC reasons I do not think that his paranoia or criticisms of the TSE and CIS leaders / roleplayers isn't entirely without a point. There has been a dark history on this board where people have specifically targeted other peoples characters and their roleplay because OOC they didn't like them or what they were roleplaying.

I was recently reminded of the infamous Operation: Weedkiller thing that happened a few years ago by someone over PMs who made it quite clear to me that if I didn't do what they wanted me to do OOC then I would be on the receiving end of something similar to that. This stemmed from the fact that they didn't like the way I was roleplaying during the aforementioned Summit of Governments thread that is currently on-going. This has nothing to do with what the criticisms that I've made in this thread but I use this as a most recent example of OOC being brought into IC.

It's clear to me that Vyrassu thinks that OOC has been brought into IC. It isn't difficult to figure out why he thinks this because some of the writers involved in the current invasions against the Jen'ari, who roleplay for the TSE and CIS has been involved in similar spats in the past where OOC was brought into IC. The leader of the CIS was the figurehead behind Operation: Weedkiller for example. Things like invasions being declared around the same time for the same date do not help to elevate this paranoia.

We all roleplay Sith. Peace is a lie. Everyone who roleplays as a Sith should welcome conflict. If you don't then you're not roleplay the Sith properly (in my opinion.) So long as the roleplay done is done for IC reasons and not because someone doesn't like your character or faction then it is fine. The Jen'ari was founded because it's characters didn't like what the Sith Empire was. The Sith Empire finds them to be heretical. The CIS Sith do not want the Jen'ari to succeed in their goals. My character finds all Sith to be the antithesis of what it means to follow the dark side.

These are simple concepts and motivations for why we should all be killing each other and the only reason why it should become more complicated for these things to continue happening should be because something happened IC i.e my character breaking [member="Vulpesen"] and [member="Alexandra Feanor"] 's sons leg at the Summit of Governments. Their justifications are wanting to kill or stop my character was because she threatened the summit. Now things are more complicated as my character tried to kill their son. This is good story telling.

I'll leave my pal Kylo Ren to summarize my thoughts on any past OOC grievances anyone may have with each other. Concentrate on the roleplay. The only way you can stop something you don't like happening to your character or faction is through roleplay. If you think you are being metagamed or powergamed then tell a member of staff...

 

[Darth Bellum]

 

[Vora Kaar]

[member="Ella Nova"],

What is the need on rehashing what has taken place nearly months ago? Why name drop people and link directly to where the problem was? Why do you need to tag the people to get more oomph in your post?

You said yourself to let the past die, yet you seem you are not able to from this post. Giving us a 1k+ post about how you feel over a situation when it matters little?

Some of you will see the title of this thread and instantly assume that this is a complaint thread. I'm over making complaints, this is just an honest critique of everyone involved.

Yes. Many people will think you are complaining or scarring old wounds. There is no need for it.

This is the reason why people have a problem with you. This is the reason why people don't like to talk to you, or don't want to thread with you.

If you really want you voice to be heard, then do it over a subject that needs to be discussed, or has value. Not your thoughts on a set of invasion threads.

 

[Shade of Decay]

Yes. Many people will think you are complaining or scarring old wounds. There is no need for it.

This is the reason why people have a problem with you. This is the reason why people don't like to talk to you, or don't want to thread with you.

If you really want you voice to be heard, then do it over a subject that needs to be discussed, or has value. Not your thoughts on a set of invasion threads.

 

[Tanomas Graf]

You do realize there's this perfectly capable thing called the 'Blog', right?

Or make like I do and post all your complaints in a google doc and keep it locked tight instead of airing your dirty...everything.

It's already bad enough that every few weeks we get a new Suggestion thread from certain people that only benefits them, or how we have people vaguebooking in status updates (I miss the simpler times of edgy song lyrics).

Don't be mistaken, your opinion can matter despite the controversial material within, but for feths sake, stop clogging up this subforum with incoherent diatribes and put them where they belong.

Maybe there's a reason I've banned you from things before.

[member="Ella Nova"]

 

[Darth Ayra]

[member="Auberon"]

For there to be an invasion on this board there needs to be two set of willing participants. I don't know if you haven't noticed (I clearly have) but both the TSE and CIS invasions petered out rather quickly at the end from the Jen'ari. It doesn't matter if you don't think it's worth discussing that a major faction on this board consists of members who think two other major factions are targeting them because of OOC reasons and not IC reasons. I brought up the thread from November because it's still relevant. You didn't have a discussion or a worth while talk where issues were settled. You and several other people in that thread made vague comments saying, "Please have fun with us because your opinions of us are wrong and we don't care to listen to what you have to say."

I didn't start this thread to have an argument and there weren't any complaints made in my opening post. You and [member="Tanomas Graf"] have come in to start an argument. If you don't think there is anything wrong with the fact that OOC being is still being taken into IC on this board six years after it was founded then you can't see the trees for the forest.

The theme of my opening post was that opposition to the TSE and CIS Sith feel that OOC is being used to influence or change what happens in character. Vyrassu was wrong about the TSE and CIS invasions. They were declared for legitimate and understandable reasons. This is a nuanced opinion from me because my character is apart of the Jen'ari. On the other hand you have writers such as [member="Alexandra Feanor"] bringing up the infamous "Weedkiller" event that messed up [member="Vanessa Vantai"]'s roleplay (they ended up quitting the board over it) to try and force me into roleplaying what they wanted me too.

This is just one such example of metagaming that happens on this board and people should feel the right to air them in public so that the board can either condemn or support the people involved in order to make things better as staff on this board have failed to deal with this on-going issue. I think this is why people don't like talking to me or even roleplaying with me because I have no qualms telling them that you're a metagamer, or that you're a powergamer, and that you need to change.

In relation to the Jen'ari-TSE & CIS invasions there is a feeling that people are bringing OOC into IC. Some of it is untrue, some of it is true. What do you say to TSE members coming into their Discord server to harass Jen'ari writers as Vyrassu has claimed? Don't you think it is an issue that Jen'ari leadership and their members feel that they can't air their grievances with staff or other members on the board because some Social Justice Warrior told them there's nothing wrong and they should shut up about it, as you have basically just told me?

Edit: I tag people in my posts, not because I think tagging them will gain traction or attention, but because they're the people I am talking about and subsequently they should be held accountable for their actions.

 

[Scherezade deWinter]

[member="Ella Nova"]

What I found odd about the TSE and CIS invasions were the lack of roleplay done prior to their declarations.

Incorrect. You can read this and the threads linked to in the opening post: http://starwarsrp.net/topic/139255-into-the-devils-lair-cis-viceroyalty/

CIS had the set up months before TJE went major.

 

[Darth Ayra]

[member="Scherezade deWinter"]

"What I found odd about the TSE and CIS invasions were the lack of roleplay done prior to their declarations. I would love more than anything to be corrected on this part but I saw no thread between TSE and CIS leadership where these two factions co-ordinated their invasions to remove a common enemy. Perhaps it is because there was no such co-ordination between both sides. Declaring an invasion to begin on the same day doesn't seem to be a coincidence to me."

Thank you.

 

[Scherezade deWinter]

[member="Ella Nova"] Right, that was what I wanted to quote. Still on my first coffee for the day, sorry

You were correct in saying there was no IC discussion between the leaders of CIS and TJE - that was though because there was no need (the first post in the thread provided earlier shows that).

 

[Darth Bellum]

"Saw no IC discussion between two factions" - Probably because there were none but both could see a nuisance that they both wanted to wipe out. This happened with the Galactic Alliance when Coruscant and adjacent sectors were hit because all parties involved with the fall of the Galactic Alliance saw an opportunity that could be capitalized on in removing a threat. The same happened with Commenor Systems Alliance. It's not a completely out of this world concept to see that numerous factions will gang up on another when they see an opportunity to do so.

 

[Darth Ayra]

[member="Kor Vexen"]

That was my point...

 

[Darth Bellum]

Every point you've brought up in your initial post was contradicted by something said shortly after. You're making a mountain of a molehill in what can only be characterized as a mess of seemingly contradictory statements in an attempt to fill out some unknown wordcount. All for something that doesn't particularly need to warrant a post for everyone to look at and roll their eyes over. Because that's what this is to both me and a number of people who have looked this over.

So what is the point of this long-winded post that you labeled as "not a complaint" but sounds strangely like a massive complaint? And why put it in roleplay discussion rather than an OOC blog? There is no discussion here, it's just you seem to provide a number of irrelevant "if" points when it comes back to your core statement of CONCENTRATE ON THE ROLEPLAY; which is literally all you could have just said for this from the beginning instead of turning four words into over a thousand. I don't know if any literature teacher has ever told you to be concise when writing something, but quality over quantity. Which begs the question - Why bother with all this to begin with?

 

[sabrina]

Thing is Sith don't need a civil war, as sith are always meant to be infighting to an extent, though it is kept in check.
This is how we rise and fall in individual power, though the fall is rather dramatic, without many pension benefits, though you do get somewhere to rest your head.

 

[Vora Kaar]

For there to be an invasion on this board there needs to be two set of willing participants.

No. There are no rules stating it has to be willing.

I don't know if you haven't noticed (I clearly have) but both the TSE and CIS invasions petered out rather quickly at the end from the Jen'ari.

I have noticed, and I do pay attention.

It doesn't matter if you don't think it's worth discussing that a major faction on this board consists of members who think two other major factions are targeting them because of OOC reasons and not IC reasons. I brought up the thread from November because it's still relevant.

The Staff have gone over the reports made by said person, and the person has repeated the same that the attacks were done OOC, when they were proven Incorrect. Staff said the Invasions would go on. So they have.

You didn't have a discussion or a worth while talk where issues were settled. You and several other people in that thread made vague comments saying, "Please have fun with us because your opinions of us are wrong and we don't care to listen to what you have to say."

I do value what people have to say. But when they continue to say the same things over and over when they are not willing to accept that it will not change, nor bring value, then I stop talking, because it is a waste of breath, much to what I am doing now.

I didn't start this thread to have an argument and there weren't any complaints made in my opening post.

Opinionated statement but go ahead.

You and Tanomas Graf have come in to start an argument.

Nah. More so telling you to go away.

If you don't think there is anything wrong with the fact that OOC being is still being taken into IC on this board six years after it was founded then you can't see the trees for the forest.

OOC is taken in account of everything darling. Your character only acts the way YOU want them too. That is OOC Control over a character. In a perfect world, yes the character would act of their own accord. However, this is not so. This is an ideal dream brought into a real world discussion that will hold no water.

The theme of my opening post was that opposition to the TSE and CIS Sith feel that OOC is being used to influence or change what happens in character. Vyrassu was wrong about the TSE and CIS invasions. They were declared for legitimate and understandable reasons. This is a nuanced opinion from me because my character is apart of the Jen'ari.

Then why do you keep bringing it up? What's done is done. Let sleeping dogs lie.

On the other hand you have writers such as Alexandra Feanor bringing up the infamous "Weedkiller" event that messed up Vanessa Vantai's roleplay (they ended up quitting the board over it) to try and force me into roleplaying what they wanted me too.

Well according to the image you presented, You were not taking hits. So the person was upset with you for not calling the hit. Which means to "flush you out" they would throw more resources at you, getting you to not call even more hits, and report you. It is a tactic that has been done ever since RP was done, and ever since Chaos has been a site.

This is just one such example of metagaming that happens on this board and people should feel the right to air them in public so that the board can either condemn or support the people involved in order to make things better as staff on this board have failed to deal with this on-going issue. I think this is why people don't like talking to me or even roleplaying with me because I have no qualms telling them that you're a metagamer, or that you're a powergamer, and that you need to change.

Yes. It happens. However, Admins are not supposed to micromanage every person that comes across the site. there are over 2 thousand accounts on this site. Do you really think they have the time to go through every one of them and make sure that everyone is following the rules? Do you expect them to sift through all of them? Or do you just want them to come to your beck and call when someone calls you out for not taking your hits?

In relation to the Jen'ari-TSE & CIS invasions there is a feeling that people are bringing OOC into IC. Some of it is untrue, some of it is true. What do you say to TSE members coming into their Discord server to harass Jen'ari writers as Vyrassu has claimed?

I am not in Sith Chat, and so I never saw any of it. However, if that claim is true and shown enough evidence, then the people who were victims of it, deserve the right to call them out. I agree. But the fashion you are doing it in, is not the way to do it.

Don't you think it is an issue that Jen'ari leadership and their members feel that they can't air their grievances with staff or other members on the board because some Social Justice Warrior told them there's nothing wrong and they should shut up about it, as you have basically just told me?

I highly doubt I am a social justice warrior by your accounts. If anything, you are? I mean. You are going out of your way to call people out, and bring these people to LITERAL Social justice of the site itself. Kind of hypocritical. But despite that, I didn't say they were wrong. Nor did I say you were wrong. If you like, I can quote my own post to show that I didn't say "You are wrong." In fact, I agree with a few points you have brought up. However, I don't see the need to do this now when you could have easily done this in a PM with Staff, or on discord where you can make a server to have multiple staff members of both sides in on this conversation. Because you know, Staff are the ones who have power to change things around here. Not the public Site domain.

Others have been saying it so adequately over what is going on.

"You are making mountains, over molehills"

You are bring up grievances that should have, and already have been solved a while ago. This was solved within the first week of the invasions being displayed. As you have mentioned in the past, If you want people to accept you, then critique them behind closed doors. Give them a chance to see their problem on their own terms. Not everybody may be as open to you. Which you don't seem to understand. Not everyone wants to be name dropped. Maybe, just maybe they would be more accepting if you came to them in a private message and said "Hey, you said you were looking for some critiques, and I wanted to give you some. Mind?"

Throwing it out into the open in a state such as this, where you likely have a spreadsheet out so you know how to exactly answer every question given to you, is lynching them when there is no need to. You are reaching well out of your wingspan for something that you will never find within your grasp because you don't know what you are looking for in the first place. You will always have something to discuss, always have something "wrong" on your mind, and always fight back on some issue when you could otherwise look away, and accept that people are different from you, and do things differently from you.

I am not telling you to shut up. Nor am I telling you that you are wrong. You have the right intentions, but are doing it in a fashion that will only burn you up in the process. You want open critique right? Then this is it. Find ways to work with people, without having to argue, or always make a comment on it. You do have good writing chops. You do write good stories from what I have seen. But only if the writer behind the screen could see that people are different from themselves, and respect that fact alone.

Even if you choose to respond to this, I stated earlier that I was wasting my time. So I won't be responding to this again. Take it as me walking away from a subject without being solved if you so pointed out earlier. I just feel like right now, I am talking to a brick wall.

 

[Kev'vazulan]

Given I'm relatively new in the community, I don't have any real input in regards to the content of your thoughts. It's a discussion which requires personal experience in order to add value to it (like this weedkiller thing that is apparently being mentioned), and I simply do not have that. If you want a constructive reply about the predicament itself, you can skim past this reply.

Though I want to comment about something I've noticed that I personally disagree with.

I don't think it's cool to drop names. I get the concept of being held accountable for actions an individual has recently done/has done in the past - but does that require you to further publicise them without consulting with the people in question? It's a sign of respect to get in touch with the people involved privately and asking if it's okay to mention their name. It's regarding criticism - something people don't enjoy getting involved with - so don't force people to get involved. You can say that the act is not to gain traction, and I believe you when you say it, but you're dragging people into a situation they more than likely want no part of. Don't make people involved in things without their approval. If you feel like you still need to mention it, make a personal message with the person in question alongside staff, and resolve the issue there. It's a a much better means of resolving a situation.

I think it's something anyone, and everyone, should make use of. Being able to ask people if it's OK to do x and y (if it involves said people) is a sign of respect, something which is only positive. Having a lack of repect causes conflicts rather than discussions, and conflicts cause more issues than they're worth. You can take my word for what it is, or you can disagree with it - I absolutely respect whatever opinion you have of it. I'm just mentioning it because I believe it would be a better means of approach, since you're mentioning them in a negative context - I know I wouldn't enjoy waking up in the morning only to notice I'm being called out. It's not enjoyable, and I'm sure you can agree with that; so treat people the way you want to be treated.

TL;DR: If you feel like highlighting something that someone might have done wrong - begin with asking them if it's OK mention them in a thread. If they give consent, cool. If they don't want to talk about it publically, but don't mind speaking about it privately, talk exclusively with them + staff in order to resolve it. Things don't have to be public, and you certainly shouldn't force a discussion like this to be public, since it's putting people in a negative light (by calling out their mistakes). Sorry for the little rant, my teacher's instinct couldn't help but intervene and give advice.

 

[Darth Ayra]

@Ryder Zeshatt

Thank you for reply. Everything you said is correct. People on this website should be able to sort things out privately, and if they can't then they should take it to staff and they should sort it out. But as you said you haven't been on this board long and unfortunately it's all the same culprits (myself included) who are still doing the same things well over half a decade later. That is ridiculous. I'm tired of being metagamed, powergamed and threatened by people because they can't get over the fact that I may have outsmarted them, or I didn't roleplay something that they wanted me too. People tend to change and fix up when they're outed in public. When you can't appeal to logic, or have the decency to talk about it then you have to shame them.

[member="Auberon"]

You read my post, you say you agreed with most of it and still spent the time to create an argument out of it despite saying you weren't arguing. Then you got to the end of your post and realized you're arguing over enough. You're right. You've wasted both mine and yours time. I know you're friends with most of these people so why don't you- as their friend- help them fix up and stop this bullshit. I don't come on this website to cause drama or participate in drama. I come here to roleplay Star Wars. Dramas and arguments are caused by me because they're legitimate issues with this website [member="Tefka"] and co. aren't fixing.

I mean this same argument comes up year after year, every couple of months or so it seems and still nothing seems to be done about it. Why don't you take a stance saying that if you are blatantly caught metagaming or powergaming you'll cop a swift ban instead of telling people they can't use the words 'official' or 'the' in their faction names? I'm asking you politely to sort it out.

 

[Scherezade deWinter]

[member="Ella Nova"] You forget that metagaming is not against the rules. The only people to protest metagaming in the last half a year have been you and Vyrassu. Usually, the people who scream about it loudest, are the ones who do it themselves, repeatedly.

You are not judge, jury, and executioner, and your insistence on doing "shaming" is not doing anything to those you speak of, only potentially adding more warning points to yourself.

Sometimes, it's better to just let things go. If you have specific grievances with people (and their specific posts), you can take it up with the staff. Threads like these are not going to fix anything, especially when you appear to be in the minority about claiming things are wrong.

 

[Natasi Fortan]

It's okay to have an unexpressed thought from time to time.

 

[Kev'vazulan]

Don't really know what to say apart from the fact that I strongly disagree with the concept of shaming people. I try and treat people the way I want to be treated, which is through showing kindness to those who've earned my appreciation, to show empathy if someone is going through something difficult, and respecting/understanding what people are thinking.

WIth all that said, I simply can't respect the mentality you just showed, since it promotes a rather toxic mindset that I hope you cease with in the future. I've gotten some amazing reception from plenty of people the moment I arrived, including a guy who has put in a lot of work to make an interesting group/faction (his work inspired me to get back into writing/roleplaying in the first place) - Why would they do that? Because they treat people the way they want to be treated. Saying they can't appeal to logic, therefor you have to shame them in order to make them understand, is just not right. If you're shaming people, expect it to go both ways. That's why I hope you'll drop that mentality as soon as possible, because I can guess that you wouldn't like the idea of being shamed to a community which you are involved with on a near-daily basis.

You can do better.

 

[Darth Ayra]

[member="Ella Nova"] You forget that metagaming is not against the rules. The only people to protest metagaming in the last half a year have been you and Vyrassu. Usually, the people who scream about it loudest, are the ones who do it themselves, repeatedly.

Holy fuck I can't believe you posted this. Metagaming is and always should be exercised out of any community at the first sight of it. I'll fully admit that I've metagamed on this website before but to keep my opinions in context that was well before I left the website in 2015 and since then I've made it my own personal standard to not be hypocritical when and if possible. I hate it when people metagamed or powergamed against me back in 2013-2015 despite doing it myself and now I'm older I hate it even more.

Writers should not roleplay their characters possessing information or knowledge that their character doesn't have. They shouldn't use things they know OOC and use that information IC. Nobody should possess the opinion that their character should be stronger or more powerful in their actions particularly when they are in a PvP situation. It should come down to people out writing the other person's character and not using powergame to beat another person.

I mean these are just the basics and fundamentals of roleplay for decades now.