Rules Update Racism, Misogyny, Homophobia Have Been Banned

[Junko Ike]

I can't think of any outright hatred. there has been dislike of chaaracters. Most disliked Daala men and women.

Maybe Isard

closest might be Caern Adan who was the new republic commander controlling alphabet squadron. He seemed to have a major hatred for Yrica Quell for just about every reason... but he was also fairly terrible as a leader and took the Amanda Waller approach of just tell the team over and over they have to do a goal and be as inflexible as possible. Which he was like that with his entirre squadron save Krios the U-wing pilot whom he had been around for years.

Personally, I never saw a need for it as star wars is usually more about good vs evil over men vs women... now certainly there are groups and organizations sure but with thousands of worlds not all of them are going to be equal representation. Some will be ruled by men, some by women. I am not trying to convince you Tef, I agree is has no place from an OOC perspective but I disagree slightly it not being IC.... but you are the boss and usually only do this if things get bad.

 

[Tefka]

I can hate a woman even OOC and not be a misogynist. I just hate that woman.

Hating women is different than hating a woman.

Am I off base here like I feel like some people responding arent grasping this very fundamental aspect of the discussion.

 

[A Phoenix]

Palpatine was misogynist as well as racist/speciesist he was NOT xenophobic he HATED and subdued women and aliens. In some cases ones who fought hard for his ideals.

Are Hutts or slave owners misogynist? Or can they act poorly towards their possessions because the treatment is indiscriminate?

I do not say this because I cannot write without such hooks. I do not say this because I am in favor of ANY discrimination or hate based on who someone is. But even in Star Wars writing will have sediments of real life enter into it. Societal biases are real and character building in both positive and negative ways.

And to be clear a person or society that does not like or allow advancements of aliens is NOT xenophobic it is racist. So please do not contend there is no canon examples of this.

 

[Onrai]

Hutts go out of their way to buy attractive women, put them in metal bikinis, and chain them up on their dais in sultry poses, occasionally making them dance or else they get rancor pitted. Jabba did, if no one else. If buying a woman for her sexual appeal, putting her in a skimpy outfit that shows her body off, and killing her if she doesn’t dance for you and your guests isn’t a misogynistic take from a character at best and a species at worst, then idk what would fall under that banner.

Tbh, I’m more surprised at the ban existing at all. It seems like a solution looking for a problem - haven’t been as active as I used to, but feels like there would be a lot of people talking here or on the Discord(s) about it if woman-hating, gay-bashing, or racism was becoming prevalent enough in RPs to warrant a ban by staff on anything even remotely resembling it on the board.

 

[Tefka]

Okay you can take up with the rest of the internet your very wrong defintion of Palpatine not being xenophobic.

But I do see people reaching for Palpatine being a misogynist, and I gotta say, evidence??????

Like, theres none that I have seen, aside from the officers in the Empire being mostly male. But thats like saying our own militaries are misogynistic. Thats not inherently true of a male dominated industry.

 

[Tefka]

Hutts go out of their way to buy attractive women, put them in metal bikinis, and chain them up on their dais in sultry poses, occasionally making them dance or else they get rancor pitted. Jabba did, if no one else. If buying a woman for her sexual appeal, putting her in a skimpy outfit that shows her body off, and killing her if she doesn’t dance for you and your guests isn’t a misogynistic take from a character at best and a species at worst, then idk what would fall under that banner.

I mean if he had male slaves would you feel the same? We only saw one female dancer in the movies that we know was a slave, aside from Leia. That doesn’t tell me he’s a misogynist. That tells me he likes beautiful women and hates when his slaves disobey.

I think maybe this is a problem of the community reaching too broadly for the definition of misogyny, while I am operating on a very narrow and strict understanding that for you to be a misogynist, you need to demonstrate contempt or dislike or prejudice by the very definition of the word.

Yalls responses so far are, if I catcall a woman on the street, I’m demonstrating misogyny. Thats just not true.

 

[Quauhtli Sacul]

While it is implied, I do not think there are any outwardly misogynistic characters in the Star Wars EU. People say Palpatine, but his left hand was Mara.

The Hutts, I do not think it is misogyny. Moreso they want their goods (slaves or otherwise) to look good. It's just that Jabba thought Leia looked at her best in a bikini.

 

[A Phoenix]

Okay you can take up with the rest of the internet your very wrong defintion of Palpatine not being xenophobic.

But I do see people reaching for Palpatine being a misogynist, and I gotta say, evidence??????

Like, theres none that I have seen, aside from the officers in the Empire being mostly male. But thats like saying our own militaries are misogynistic. Thats not inherently true of a male dominated industry.

Sorry looked up a firm definition of xenophobic and you are correct Palpatine WAS xenophobic. And by the pure definition xenophobia needs to be banned along with misogyny, racism and homophobia. Because I can find a canonical example of something does not make it socially more acceptable. A ban on homophobia, misogyny and racism is your social decision not based on Star Wars canon.

"Daala enlisted in the Imperial Navy on Carida, but was discriminated against due to her gender. "
-Wookieepedia

Are you looking for instances where in literature or on screen a character actually sat down and said "No this being cannot be given XXXX honorific because they are a female."? No one wants to see that and I am not in support of this being done.

I am not considering catcalling of any being misogyny or any other bias you want to attach to it. I am calling a society that disallows female advancement due only to their gender as misogyny, and that has a place in storytelling. Just as xenophobia, racism and homophobia do. They are horrible ideals in basis, but they exist here and now and more than likely exist in a galaxy far, far away.

This ban is unnecessary. A writer creating a character who is is raised in a patriarchal society will either be a bad guy in the greater galaxy, or will struggle to overcome the ignorance of his homeworld and be a hero. A woman born into said society who rises up despite the challenges is good storytelling.

If a writer makes a character who is a woman hater for the sake of woman hating and to be "edgy" they will only attract like minded writers or masochistic writers who want to have their characters torn down for no good reason. In the end the writers who wish to enjoy themselves in lighthearted and/or deep meaningful RP will not write with said "edgy" writer.

Perhaps this ban needs to be made more clear. Perhaps it is the broad nature of the ban that has struck a nerve. And of course this is not my forum, and this is not a sword I'm willing to completely lay down on. I will continue to write in the gray areas of this ban and hope that the fact that my stories contain elements of hardship like this in backstories and challenges relating to these bans are placed in front of my characters are not support of these ideals. If that results in punishment I will learn where the line is by trial and error and hope to adapt.

 

[A Phoenix]

While it is implied, I do not think there are any outwardly misogynistic characters in the Star Wars EU. People say Palpatine, but his left hand was Mara.

The Hutts, I do not think it isn't misogyny. Moreso they want their goods (slaves or otherwise) to look good. It's just that Jabba thought Leia looked at her best in a bikini.

Honestly I think Palpatine hated everyone who was not Palpatine. And I don't know that I necessarily think that George Lucas intended for him to be even implied as misogynist, however the Imperial doctrine in EU was xenophobic (which as I said needs to be banned along with misogyny, etc) and misogynist. And that doctrine comes from Palpatine.

Hutts, for me, were brought up as where the line is drawn. Is certain behavior ok because it is dolled out equally where if it was only focused on one group it would not be ok?

Mara was not Palpatine's left hand. She was a tool that he used to do a job. Because she was an elite gaming platform and the other choices were chromebooks does not mean that Palpatine was not misogynist it means he chose the "best tool for the job".

 

[Gatz Derrevar]

A woman born into said society who rises up despite the challenges is good storytelling.

I think this alone merits at least thinking on loosening the rule a little. Maybe not outright removing it, but allowing some nuance to write these kinds of stories about powerful women overcoming hurdles that were meant to outright stop them.

It's very good storytelling, and we have a few such characters on site that have been handling this kind of thing very respectfully.

 

[Quauhtli Sacul]

I still disagree that the Empire and Palpatine were misogynist. They were a lot of things, but I don't think this is one of them. Under represented certainly, but nothing suggests they are actively suppressed. But I digress.

I think challenging these topics in a respectful way is good writing, but equally I do not envy any Mods / Admins who need to decide where the line is drawn between what is challenging prejudice and what is contributing / glamourising it that's assuming they identify it before any harm is done.

And when it is identified, the leaniancy can be used as a shelter. In the context of the public forum I can understand why this rule would exist. And honestly, I think you can still deal with these topics in writing even with the rule by drawing attention to it but not directly involving characters in these events.

On the point of Xenophobia, while historically I can see why you might ban this topic. I think xenophobia means something different today, your not likely to harm someone by having prejudice against a fictional species.

Ultimately, I agree the rule is a bit over zealous but in the context of a forum (especially one this large) it makes sense why it would exist.

 

[Kahlil Noble]

Misogyny is the hatred of woman.

Sexism is discrimination and stereotyping based on gender.

"Daala enlisted in the Imperial Navy on Carida, but was discriminated against due to her gender. "

This is sexism, not misogyny. Sexism wasn't banned from what I could tell.

Anyway as often as you see someone use these topics for actually good story writing, you get like 20 who use it for a wham shock value woman in the freezer effect for "haha I'm a bad person!" We don't need these topics to write good stories. The movies themselves certainly didn't.

 

[DeadpoolMLP]

Throwing my two cents in here because I've been writing female characters for over a decade and have spent a lot of time doing my research as a guy doing so. Talked to female writers, talked with female friends about it.

Does Misogyny exist in star wars? Absolutely. It's a big galaxy and I think outright banning it IC is a mistake.

Do I think we should police characters who take it too far? Yes. Please. I think throwing a blanket ban because someone pushed it too far is a step too far in the other direction. The fact is, you can tell good stories with it, and it makes for easy villain points if you make it that way. But that's the thing, it's easy. The hardest part of writing a good villain is and always will be riding the line between villainy and good taste. Most RPers don't have the self control to ride that line, but I think punishing the people who do for the people who don't isn't a fair trade.

Realistically, I've seen 2 characters at most who have that trait assigned to them in their bio since joining the site a year ago, and neither of them are very active. If one of them were active, and it was a problem, yeah, punish that writer for taking the easy route. But I think the whole gut reaction of just throwing the whole concept out to pasture feels a little reactionary.

 

[A Phoenix]

This is sexism, not misogyny. Sexism wasn't banned from what I could tell.

This is a fair statement. Except that Sexism and Misogyny are not mutually exclusive (many people think of them as the same thing) and while I agree that a blatantly misogynist character with no reason should be at the least scrutinized, my original contention was to how this was going to be enforced and where the line exists.

The second issue I have is it was explicitly stated that hatred of aliens (xenophobia) and men (misandry) are ok. Why? Because white rich men rule the world so in fantasy land it's ok to focus hate on them? And aliens don't really exist so their is no one to have hurt feelings? If the purpose of this rule is to protect certain segments of the population it is insulting. If the purpose is to prevent targeted hate then it is explicitly incomplete.

 

[Onrai]

We only saw one female dancer in the movies that we know was a slave, aside from Leia.

iirc there were at least 4 per the special edition: two were Twi’leks, one was an Askajian(who Jabba deliberately made obese for his personal pleasure), and one was a Rodian. Also, thinking about it, racism is engrained in Star Wars through the Arkanians(racist against certain physical features) and the Ssi-Ruuk(literally against interracial relationships since they make brown kids), and misogyny is engrained in Twi’lek society as of the movies(the wiki mentions “Twi'lek society held that educating women was a threat to male authority”).

As is, admittedly still have the same thought as mentioned before: it feels like this is a solution looking for a problem. I genuinely don’t know of something that someone’s done that would justify laying these rules down, and knowing the community for over a decade, it feels like we’d have had at least one big argument, maybe two, on either the discord or the forums before a ban would end up in place.

 

[Selle Skern]

This is a fair statement. Except that Sexism and Misogyny are not mutually exclusive (many people think of them as the same thing) and while I agree that a blatantly misogynist character with no reason should be at the least scrutinized, my original contention was to how this was going to be enforced and where the line exists.

The second issue I have is it was explicitly stated that hatred of aliens (xenophobia) and men (misandry) are ok. Why? Because white rich men rule the world so in fantasy land it's ok to focus hate on them? And aliens don't really exist so their is no one to have hurt feelings? If the purpose of this rule is to protect certain segments of the population it is insulting. If the purpose is to prevent targeted hate then it is explicitly incomplete.

Agree on misandry (it's pretty hypocritical to allow hatred of men but not women) but starkly disagree on alien hatred. There has to be some line where it's acceptable, for example, for a slave to rationally/irrationally hate the Zyggerians or Hutts since nearly their entire species are dedicated to slavery, or someone from a very united and culturally communal culture viewing a species like the Twi'leks suspiciously since a lot of them sold their own into slavery.

 

[A Phoenix]

Agree on misandry (it's pretty hypocritical to allow hatred of men but not women) but starkly disagree on alien hatred. There has to be some line where it's acceptable, for example, for a slave to rationally/irrationally hate the Zyggerians or Hutts since nearly their entire species are dedicated to slavery, or someone from a very united and culturally communal culture viewing a species like the Twi'leks suspiciously since a lot of them sold their own into slavery.

Xenophobia would be all aliens (to whatever species you are playing). Focused hatred at a certain people because of something in your backstory is not xenophobia. But why is that ok? What if I want to play a male character who was ruthlessly abused by his mother, locked away from the galaxy and forced to do whatever her whims demanded. When he escapes because of this background he hates all women. He is a misogynist. Why is that not ok. But a Twi'lek escaped slave hating all Hutts is ok?

If you are banning hate then ban hate. But historically entire factions have been based on hate in Star Wars and here in these forums. Where is the line of what hate is ok and what is not. I would rather have it on me to decide whether to engage with a writer or a story than for staff to make a blanket ban of something that could mean so many different things depending on who you ask.

 

[Selle Skern]

I would rather have it on me to decide whether to engage with a writer or a story than for staff to make a blanket ban of something that could mean so many different things depending on who you ask.

This I can probably agree with.

 

[Tefka]

Somebody help im not sure if im too woke or if this thread is chocked full of self-reporters

 

[Tefka]

I have pushed the issue for debate at Staff so more voices may be heard, I will keep the community up to date