Feedback Regular Map Wipe Poll

[Kainan Wolfe]

Grrwunhoooll Agaburry I don't believe this is the right time for a wipe. The map is undergoing massive upheavals at the moment, there's a 2nd Great War brewing and the new major factions have only just found their footing. To kill all these factions in the crib, after two years during which no new major faction has managed to establish itself, would be premature and demoralizing.

 

[Ulkahall Svaraghaun]

Kinda absolutely agree with the point Kainan Wolfe is making.

 

[Kainan Wolfe]

The problem with the suggested map wipes (especially if they become a regular thing) is that it would kill incentive for worldbuilding. Writing up all the lore behind a major faction takes a long time and a lot of effort. There are tons of submissions (both factory and codex) that need to be written, a lot of development that needs to get done.

Periodic map wipes would also wipe out all incentive for worldbuilding and would demoralize the people interested in that aspect of roleplay. It would create a more dynamic map, yes, at the cost of making factions more shallow and a lot less developed in terms of lore and worldbuilding. It would favor quantity over quality, in my opinion, because if they know the map is being wiped in 6 months, then why would the members of a faction spend 5 of those months doing all of that worldbuilding and development?

Map wipes right now, would turn the map game into a board game-like experience consisting exclusivelly of flash-in-the-pan factions with very little to no worldbuilding behind them. The worldbuilding and emergent geopolitics of Chaos' map game are what separate this site from so many others, what make it stand out and special.

The system we currently have isn't perfect, true. Improvements can and should be made, yes. Perhaps through staff intervention in the form of events, etc, or perhaps us major faction owners need to just come together more and plan out some bigger narratives. Map wipes in the format that some people seem to be suggesting (periodic map wipes, no IC event, just an OOC press of a button) would only destroy the map in its entirety. If this is implemented, building a major faction would no longer mean anything. Worldbuilding would trickle down to almost nothing. Factions and events on the map would lose their narrative weight.

There would never again be another faction like the One Sith or the old Galactic Alliance, who's fall would have such a major, meaningful impact upon the greater narrative of the galaxy. There would never be another Sith Empire, or the Confederacy of Independent Systems, or Silver Jedi Order. There would never again be another faction like the Eternal Empire, with our almost 150 wiki pages of lore, or the Outer Planets Alliance, with the rich narrative they have spent so long crafting. That is what we stand to lose if we implement map wipes in such a manner.

Should factions have an "expiration date"? All factions already do. Some go out when other factions destroy them through multiple invasions. Some fizzle out and fade away into oblivion. Some factions are driven by a narrative goal, the Eternal Empire being a good example here, as we have a plan in place for how we will go out.

Its no longer 2018-2019. The stagnation that everyone is bringing up as a reason for map wipes, has ended. We're on the brink of a major galactic war on a scale not seen since the fall of the GA. There's no reason to fix something that isn't broken.

 

[Grrwunhoooll Agaburry]

There is no such thing as a right or wrong time. Things are what you make them out to be. If not now or the distant future then when? Never? There would be no killing a faction. People need to get that notion out of their heads right now. You cannot kill a faction just as you cannot kill a player character. There is always a resurrection, new character made or new faction to be birthed. Maybe even a new flavor of a faction too.

I live, I die, I live again. That is the cycle. Look at the Sith, CIS, GA and Mando factions. All have gone through their cycles or renditions. Some are not here but will be later, some are still around right now and slightly different. It natural to change.

Face it.

Kainan Wolfe​

 

[Kainan Wolfe]

Grrwunhoooll Agaburry The system we have, works. The map wipes thing some of you are suggested, would kill incentive for worldbuilding and in-depth development, it'd create a map populated exclusively by flash-in-the-pan factions as I have stated before. This would be severely detrimental to the quality of writing and the stories unfolding on the site. We don't need map wipes to fix the problems of 2018-2019. Not every problem needs to be addressed by way of the admins coming down with an OOC mechanic and wiping the slate clean. The site does not need to become more board-gamey.

 

[Ulkahall Svaraghaun]

Grrwunhoooll Agaburry but you can kill player characters and factions, plenty of factions have died. Plenty of PCs have died. Just because a faction may have the same name as a previously existing one doesn’t mean it will be same stream of worldbuilding as the previous, thats the issue that Tact is bringing to light. It’d kill any form of setting narrative or organic worldbuilding in its tracks.

if you think the current GA, or even the current TSE, is the same as previous incarnations, I’m not sure what to say. It’s blatantly not true. They’re years of worldbuilding dedicated to making a unique setting for Chaos writers to thrive in.

Chaos is not a Paradox Game, Chaos is not a mechanically driven setting, Chaos should not be made synthetic by things like no-context regular map wipes.

 

[Grrwunhoooll Agaburry]

Ulkahall Svaraghaun - Making me feel like Confucius cuz I never said any of that.. regarding factions remaining EXACTLY the same. I threw the word renditions in there for just that reason too. If people cant return to their past selfs in RL then a faction on a forum cant either.. not truly. Its a good thing we can all start from scratch though! Think of it as a new codex or factory sub. Its alot of communication and typing at its simplest form. Every time you write a post IC or OOC your doing it!

Kainan Wolfe - Map wipes are NOT needed, but they are wanted. Cant disagree there either. People have their reasons too. You are right though. A wipe or wipes would not fix past mistakes or wrongs or w/e and they shouldn't be used for that. Why did you bring that up?

 

[Ulkahall Svaraghaun]

Grrwunhoooll Agaburry the like “some are still around right now and slightly different.” And your gif kinda got the impression through to me that you were implying that map wipes don’t matter because the same factions will come back. Sorry if I misinterpreted your statement.

 

[Kainan Wolfe]

Grrwunhoooll Agaburry Wanted by some people, yes. Not by the majority of people, judging by that poll, though. There's always a minority of people who want the map game done away with, or changed into something more spontaneous, short-lived and smaller in scale. The fact remains that what separates Chaos from other Star Wars RP communities, is the factions and the map.

The fact of the matter is, if people want to do something more spontaneous, smaller in scale and more localized, with a shorter lifespan (the old novel vs anthology of short stories divide), nobody is stopping those people from doing exactly that. Nobody is stopping you from getting 5 people together and creating your own major faction, having fun with it for a couple months, then letting it die. There's plenty of empty space on the map, you don't need half a galaxy of distance between you and the closest major faction.

What you are proposing would simply force everyone else to do the same thing as well. Constraining people to a certain pattern that a minority prefers, is not a good way to go about doing things. Let's face it, not everyone likes spontaneous, short stories. And judging by this poll and by the success of the site, itself, which I would attribute to the map game, as its Chaos' most distinctive feature, is proof that the majority of people prefer the longer, slow-burn narratives with meaningful development leading to large, map-wide events that have far-reaching consequences.

Map wipes, especially if they become regular, would transform the map into one populated exclusively by small, flash-in-the-pan factions that live and die spontaneously and disappear without a trace in a few months. Nobody would bother to sink months and months of work into worldbuilding if all that work would get wiped out every 6 months by an admin hitting the map with the "delete" button.

The rise and fall of a faction would no longer hold any narrative weight, whatsoever, because there would be so many of them, rising and falling so quickly, that no single faction will ever manage to leave a lasting mark on the community, ever again. Inter-faction interaction would also completely fall apart. Why would factions bother to interact with eachother if there are no stakes, because every faction is a small, 3-10-hex faction, separated from the others by dozens of hexes, with a hard timer on how long they have to do anything whatsoever on the map.

As I previously stated, there would never again be another Sith Empire, Confederacy of Independent Systems, or Eternal Empire. There would never again be another One Sith. There would never again be another Endgame, or another Great War, because the map and major factions themselves, would no longer mean anything at all.

If you don't like the factions that currently populate the map? Go make your own faction and invade them. If you don't like the slow-burn, large-scale narratives these factions write, or the effort and emphasis put into worldbuilding? Go make your own, more spontaneous faction. Go major, or stay minor if you don't like the map game at all.

The fact of the matter is nobody is forcing you to participates in the aspects and styles of roleplay that you don't like. Nobody is stopping you from having fun and writing a story you enjoy on this site. What you are proposing, is to force everyone else to write and do things the way you prefer them to be done and that is not only wrong, but would be extremely detrimental to the community itself, as many would likely leave if that was the case.

If you don't like the map game, that's fine. If you don't like the current factions on the map, that's fine. If you don't like slow-burn, expansive narratives, that's also fine. Nobody is forcing you to participate in that. Go start your own faction and do your own thing, the way you like. But don't be a killjoy. Don't try to constrain everyone into roleplaying a certain way and don't try to take away other people's toys because you don't like said toys.

 

[Ulkahall Svaraghaun]

^ One hundred percent that, couldn’t have said it better myself.

 

[WolfMortum]

^ I wish I could like something multiple times.

Hitting the nail on the head, Kainan Wolfe .

 

[The Red of Sinner]

I'd have to disagree with Kainan Wolfe with the world building aspect, mainly because it's been states so many times that whatever it is you make can be, whether right or wrong, ignored.

Maybe instead of wipes, we should be looking at what goes beyond a Major Faction? If AoC and Darkwire are Major Factions, how can they be compared to groups like the Sith or Silvers who are titans on the map? A select few of these factions are not that much different compared to Minor Factions besides the Map Cloud presence. Nothing wrong with that, it's just...when you do get to be that Titanic presence on the map, there's not much left to do afterwards.

A complete map control by one single faction is never going to happen, it's possible but considering how loyal some writers are to one aspect of the alignments, it won't. So while you could aim for such a goal, while being such a large faction, it goes that....what happens after that? A map wipe? An event? It's probably never really been taking in deep consideration by staff mainly because the likeness of it happening is all but impossible.

You admitted to a stagnation, and just because your group doesn't feel so stagnant, I think those who are feeling the stagnant of the Map Game are apart of the much larger factions that have pretty much done it all.

While I can't think of many who have put in as much work into world building as EE and it's awesome Wiki it has, this is in the end a game, fanfiction at it's grosses. But it's also why I say it's too late to implement such a thing without such a large uproar...had this wipe been a thing before you joined, you'd probably have planned for such things to begin with.

I also think a big thing is not being admitted here, something that happens in all hobbies, and passer times: time to take a nice break.

Those who find Chaos to be stagnant should take into consideration that maybe it's time to take a serious brake from RPing on Chaos for a little bit, explore what else is out there and take a break from Star Wars roleplay.

 

[WolfMortum]

You admitted to a stagnation, and just because your group doesn't feel so stagnant, I think those who are feeling the stagnant of the Map Game are apart of the much larger factions that have pretty much done it all.

I got the completely opposite impression to be honest, and do correct me if I'm wrong but from all that I've read it seems like the bigger factions are being attacked more so than anything here. TSE, CIS and SJO have all grown immensely over the years and put in a huge amount of effort (as we all do with our varying factions, threads and general interests).

It seemed to me like the larger, longer-standing factions are the ones that people are assuming to be the cause of the map game's stagnation, not specifically the members within these larger, older factions.

 

[The Red of Sinner]

I got the completely opposite impression to be honest, and do correct me if I'm wrong but from all that I've read it seems like the bigger factions are being attacked more so than anything here. TSE, CIS and SJO have all grown immensely over the years and put in a huge amount of effort (as we all do with our varying factions, threads and general interests).

It seemed to me like the larger, longer-standing factions are the ones that people are assuming to be the cause of the map game's stagnation, not specifically the members within these larger, older factions.

I would like to start off with this, it's not an accusation towards the factions as a whole. My words are "I think those who are feeling stagnant" and "are apart of the much larger factions", this all means individuals and not factions themselves.

But onto the rest...yes, I would agree that the longer a faction has been on the map the closer to stagnation it comes, specially when no events are being held, nothing truly new is being done. Just invasions and dominions. The same thing that's been done since....those kinds of threads could be accessed. So in return yes....some of these factions could very well be the reason for feeling such things. Most people in the TSE were also in the OS, and the TSE before the OS. Im sure most of the members of the CIS where apart of the CIS before and the Techno Union back in the day. It would be silly to think that some feeling of stagnation wouldn't be felt from being in the same group...doing essentially the same thing as before, even if the name is different.

 

[WolfMortum]

The Red of Sinner

Don't worry, I'm not accusing anyone of anything. I'm just offering my perspective, I didn't see anything particularly wrong with your post, I just had a different impression of things from what I've read

Speaking from the experience of being a Faction Admin in numerous larger and older Factions, I don't feel like I've been given the impression of the map-game being stagnant. I haven't personally found many complaints over the past year as far as things being stagnant are concerned. I've also had the view from a Role-Play judge perspective where I've seen Staff being proactive in discussing possible changes that have been suggested by members or within their own member-base. Things are always taken into consideration for the good of the Community which is at the very least, reassuring I hope.

From the perspective of being a current Faction Admin in the Order of the Silver Jedi, my personal perspective (Not speaking on behalf of the faction or it's staff), has been one of a positive outlook. We're trying to do our best for our members and to communicate with factions around us, the Bryn'adul for a most recent example. I can't speak for other factions or other writers, but I don't want to see our Factions hard work and progress taken away because there are others who have had no involvement in the factions growth that are feeling unhappy with the current state of the map-game.

People are completely within their right to feel the way they are feeling and I don't want to dismiss that, or the chance to discuss these feelings and opinions of the current climate within Major Factions and Chaos, but I also want to stress that there are many of us within some of the larger older factions who are quite proud of how far we've come and we don't wish to see all of that taken for granted, dismissed or removed from us without seeing our narrative and faction's life-line through to the end.

I do agree that all faction's have an end-date, but that end-date shouldn't be forced because of people outside of these groups. It should come down to the individual factions members, and hopefully the staff of these factions who communicate with their members.

 

[The Red of Sinner]

WolfMortum

I absolutely agree with you friend. It's also why I suggested that a break be taken if such a feeling is felt lol cant believe I just typed that. But it's true, and I think it should be suggested more, breaks, LOAs. They should be taken more often. Any hobby will get old quick when that's all you do, ya know?

 

[WolfMortum]

The Red of Sinner

I've just returned from one of sorts, and before it I was stressed and some of my responses to members from other factions communicating with me were influenced through stress, so I entirely agree with you where breaks are concerned.

Sometimes it's better to put some distance between yourself and a situation. De-stress and then return when you have a clearer head.

100%

 

[The Red of Sinner]

WolfMortum It would def help bring a fresh concept when coming back to the site, or even bring that muse back in general. I wouldnt mind a map wipe, but it's too late for people to grow accustom to such a major change. Therefore....go take a break, sip some coffee, go outside XD

Even still, I do agree that some stuff can be done to help besides a break, idk what they are but there is always room for improvement, and I leave it to the staff team to decided on such things. Something is better than nothing in almost all cases.

 

[Kainan Wolfe]

The Red of Sinner WolfMortum I don't think large factions are the cause of stagnation, which is another reason why a map wipe wouldn't solve anything. The problem, at least in 2018-2019 seemed to be a lack of inter-faction interactions. Throughout that period, factions have mostly kept to themselves, aside from the brief wars with the Jen'ari and the Mandalorians.

A map wipe would probably accentuate that issue. When every faction on the map is a 3-10-hex little blob, with dozens of empty hexes separating them from other factions, it would encourage even more community fragmentation. Factions would keep to themselves even more. Additionally, having the "big blob" factions on the map seems to increase map upheaval, because everyone loves a good David vs Goliath story. Factions reaching a certain point and not having anything left to "do" is part of a faction's life cycle here on Chaos. Factions grow, they fight amongst themselves, dominant powers emerge, then they stagnate from not having anywhere else left to go, start losing members due to that stagnation and finally get picked apart by all the young upstarts gunning for them.

What caused the 2018-2019 stagnation was a status quo created by networks of alliances, as well as the Disney trilogy controversies, which led to a lack of hype for Star Wars in general.

 

[The Red of Sinner]

"Factions reaching a certain point and not having anything left to "do" is part of a faction's life cycle here on Chaos. Factions grow, they fight amongst themselves, dominant powers emerge, then they stagnate from not having anywhere else left to go, start losing members due to that stagnation and finally get picked apart by all the young upstarts gunning for them."


I feel like this is far from the truth Kainan Wolfe as that is hardly the case on Chaos, if that was so the SJO would have been long gone by now.