Suggestion SWRP: What If....Major Factions had a expiration dates?

[Jonyna Si]

If you become major, you play the map game. That is what you sign up for. It's like signing up to boxing classes and get mad when someone makes your nose bleed. You put yourself in a position to get punched (invaded) and now you are upset when it happens?

See, I agree to an extent.

If you're on the map, you play the game.

But I'm just looking at the map right now. Wild Space is almost completely empty. The Tingle Arm is almost completely empty.

If you wanted to pop a major up out there, there's not an unreasonable chance you could go quite a while without having to get invaded. Yes, majors should interact with each other. Yes, there should be the expectation of it. But times have changed. Inter-faction interaction is almost all pre-planned, and scheduled ahead of time, sometimes months in advance.

It keeps salt down, it keeps the story straight, and it's so much simpler than it used to be.

Even invasions, for as hectic as they are, are discussed beforehand, even the judged ones. The GA hasn't done an invasion in 3 years without first discussing between faction staffs.

So the days of salt wars are done, and I certainly have no interest in reverting to that mentality.

 

[Delsin Shaw]

See, I agree to an extent.

If you're on the map, you play the game.

But I'm just looking at the map right now. Wild Space is almost completely empty. The Tingle Arm is almost completely empty.

If you wanted to pop a major up out there, there's not an unreasonable chance you could go quite a while without having to get invaded. Yes, majors should interact with each other. Yes, there should be the expectation of it. But times have changed. Inter-faction interaction is almost all pre-planned, and scheduled ahead of time, sometimes months in advance.

It keeps salt down, it keeps the story straight, and it's so much simpler than it used to be.

Even invasions, for as hectic as they are, are discussed beforehand, even the judged ones. The GA hasn't done an invasion in 3 years without first discussing between faction staffs.

So the days of salt wars are done, and I certainly have no interest in reverting to that mentality.

I fear you missed my point. I don't want salt wars either. Never said I wanted that. I want the map game to be played as a map game. If you take one of the huge open areas as your starting spot, it's tactical to give yourself a buffer so if someone does want to invade you, they have to move quite a ways to do so.

But playing the major map game with the direct intention of just making a larger sandbox, will never work out. It's been tested over 12 years now. If you go major, and you don't want to play the invasion game, then you will lose your spot and getting mad about it, is your own fault.

Going major is not about making a bigger box for only you to play in. It's about sharing the biggest sandbox with others so you all enjoy it. Not sitting in the corner of the box with a brand new toy.

Every kid wants to see the brand new toy, and if you don't share, then they will take it.

That how the map works. And the staff have made it that way on purpose.

 

[Valery Noble]

I agree with the points that Delsin Shaw made, but I think there's other arguments against it, too.

1. You die long before the end date.

If you're a new member and a Faction is on its last months, will it be worth investing time to make your character grow in that faction? Maybe if they aim to keep going as a Minor and that interests you, but I can also see it being a reason to already write off that faction if you're interested in a faction that can participate in invasions.

Cross faction RP can easily suffer, too. Invasions take time. 2 weeks of writing, 1 week of ooc sign-up and 1 week for judgment. That's like a month you can't speed up in any way for just a single invasion, and it doesn't even take into account the time it takes to plot between factions either.

If you want a bigger conflict between factions, would you want to commit to that if a faction has a few months left? Nah that faction is already dead, so unless they want to use that story to die off, it won't be interesting.

Then there's the issue that a lot of factions also slow down, well within just their first year. If you commited to a story with one of those and they fall off, you lost a chunk of your timer and the story didn't go anywhere satisfying.

2. People come and go

While Factions last for years, most people don't. The GA, as an example since it's the oldest Major, might be 5 years old, but I've been part of it for a little over half that time. The people leading it when I joined are gone, and even they were not the folks who created the faction.

Currently I even have someone on my staff who joined the site only 6 months ago. What's old and "overdone" to oldies who joined in 2013 isn't the same for everybody. To new members, it's a new story, their first faction, and their first time interacting with the map. Their activity speaks volumes, in my opinion, and the history of the faction they join can make their stories rich.

Factions don't last on the same few people doing the same thing over and over. And artificially telling a lot of new folks their time is up because they joined later during a factions lifetime is not the way to generate RP.

Especially because newer folks benefit a lot from first joining an older faction, so they can gradually learn how things work before they make/run something themselves. Even older members sometimes don't know how the map game works with the various types of threads etc.

 

[Seva Beroya]

Lots of interesting suggestions and some very valid points.

I'd like to make a counter-suggestion based on what Sreeya and the team did on TSWRP:

After every timeline, they wipe EVERYTHING - including their "factory and codex". You need to start uber fresh. Granted, it's a smaller community than this one, so it works.

What I wanna suggest is a modification of that. Still do timeline wipes - but keep it to just map wipes only. That way - you don't know when the next timeline update is gonna be, so it's a "make the best of the time you have" situation. It encourages creativity and stories and interactions.

Over the couple of years I've been on this board - one thing I've noticed is this - the community sorts out buttheads that are being pouty and whatnot, themselves - one way or another.

So what if the same kind of factions just pop up after every wipe? Everyone loves writing a Sith, Jedi or Imperial. It doesn't get old. So that's ok.

What's not ok is everyone sitting in their own corners playing with themselves (yes pun is intended). That circles back to the community sorting out those buttheads themselves one way or another.

Some of what I had read here has me wondering though:

When has playing the map game with the actual mechanics in place for it and the way it was designed, i.e invasion rules, mandates, etc. become "toxic" in some folks eyes? Or the new trend: it's just ok if one faction does it, but the rest may not?

TLDR: So if you play the game it was designed to be played and not by making yourself a doormat for a chance in playing it, it is now labelled as toxic - despite you doing it with zero intent of salt, just playing the game.

Timeline wipes will negate that resentment that occurs when someone is being a butthead or a hogger. It will encourage creativity. And there's no set time limit. It works with timeline updates.

Or just continue on your merry way, sit in your corner and everyone can just bloat - cause that's basically what was suggested by one or two folks - they just said it in different words.

 

[Koda Fett]

I think the cons outweigh the pros too heavily on this one.

It might be nice to see a big change. Example being, the Galactic Alliance goes down and now the Sith or the Imperials are the ones taking centre stage on a galactic scale. It might encourage more rebel elements to come into play, shifting the narrative down that route instead. But for whatever potential it has, it has twice as much potential to screw people over.

Do you arrange an event that explains, in character, how that faction went under? Does it magically poof from the map? The former is more palatable, but a little sour is still more sour than the sweet that was having their active faction continuing on.

I saw some mention about 'you become a major, you sign up for the map game' but that's a different can of worms altogether.

 

[Caelan Valoren]

So far im picking up that your answer has framed the topic more in terms of impact on group dynamics and narrative consequences rather than personal enjoyment of in-between moments. Ngl, You lost me. What im really interested in from you is your personal experience and perspective of how you enjoy roleplay or faction roleplay that seemingly has a end, period. Be it definite or eventual.

I fail to see how they can be separated, personally. For me, the enjoyment of RP is the group dynamics. If I want to just tell a story I'll go write a short story or a novel, both of which I have done and have published. Neither of those are why I'm on Chaos, though. I'm here because I want to write with other people and get the interaction where I DON'T know what the other person is going to say or do and they don't know what I'm going to say or do. So if the group has been told that the group is going to essentially cease to exist in the near future, that affects people's mentalities and will more than likely make faction related RP dry up close to the end of the faction as people stop caring because the faction is going to end. I like faction stories just as much as I like personal stories. Being part of a larger group is fun to me. Far more fun than just being a loner. In fact, I think it's harder to get involved on Chaos as a whole if you aren't involved in some faction, be it minor or major.

I enjoy the roleplay that has a known ending as much as I enjoy roleplay that doesn't, usually, but I more often enjoy now knowing the ending better than I do knowing it. Essentially: I'll enjoy it either way, but I prefer not to know the ending. I just can't divorce a faction ending from things because that reduces my RP pool as faction RP will dry up.

 

[Caelan Valoren]

After every timeline, they wipe EVERYTHING - including their "factory and codex".

Hell to the no to that one, lol. I've worked too hard on that stuff to just have it wiped out.

 

[Seva Beroya]

Hell to the no to that one, lol. I've worked too hard on that stuff to just have it wiped out.

Hence why I suggested map wipe only amigo. Cause I, as a factory bug also, feel it's a bit extreme.

 

[Seva Beroya]

I fail to see how they can be separated, personally. For me, the enjoyment of RP is the group dynamics. If I want to just tell a story I'll go write a short story or a novel, both of which I have done and have published. Neither of those are why I'm on Chaos, though. I'm here because I want to write with other people and get the interaction where I DON'T know what the other person is going to say or do and they don't know what I'm going to say or do. So if the group has been told that the group is going to essentially cease to exist in the near future, that affects people's mentalities and will more than likely make faction related RP dry up close to the end of the faction as people stop caring because the faction is going to end. I like faction stories just as much as I like personal stories. Being part of a larger group is fun to me. Far more fun than just being a loner. In fact, I think it's harder to get involved on Chaos as a whole if you aren't involved in some faction, be it minor or major.

I enjoy the roleplay that has a known ending as much as I enjoy roleplay that doesn't, usually, but I more often enjoy now knowing the ending better than I do knowing it. Essentially: I'll enjoy it either way, but I prefer not to know the ending. I just can't divorce a faction ending from things because that reduces my RP pool as faction RP will dry up.

You miss the forest for the trees homie, lol. I think he meant - eventually all factions come to an end.

So to put it in simple terms - are you saying you can't separate your own character's story from the faction? Or will your character still be able to breathe and develop outside of the faction that just poofed/died/story ended/whatever. Do you enjoy developing your character regardless of faction? Do you enjoy those in-between moments? Or is the character so dependent on the faction that it'll just implode too? That's what I think he wanted to hear from you

 

[Caelan Valoren]

You miss the forest for the trees homie, lol. I think he meant - eventually all factions come to an end.

So to put it in simple terms - are you saying you can't separate your own character's story from the faction? Or will your character still be able to breathe and develop outside of the faction that just poofed/died/story ended/whatever. Do you enjoy developing your character regardless of faction? Do you enjoy those in-between moments? Or is the character so dependent on the faction that it'll just implode too? That's what I think he wanted to hear from you

As I said, being a loner on Chaos is like not existing. It's difficult. Being part of a faction allows you better access to finding people for RP. I do plenty of non-faction RP. Would Caelan die off if the GA did? No. He's still running a world, still has his own story.

Doesn't mean I want staff saying factions die after X amount of time. Total RP buzzkill.

 

[Tasia Palpatine]

I think canning a faction because of a time limit would be dumb, and would it work anyway as if the popular kids are all super active they will just continue as "popular faction 2.0" as you can't just stop an idea.

But with regards all the empty space, there is lots. But people definately want to write on the named planets from popular media rather than Genericdustbowlia out in the badlands. If one faction owns all of them it's just a case of oh, can't play there then.

 

[Seva Beroya]

As I said, being a loner on Chaos is like not existing. It's difficult. Being part of a faction allows you better access to finding people for RP. I do plenty of non-faction RP. Would Caelan die off if the GA did? No. He's still running a world, still has his own story.

Doesn't mean I want staff saying factions die after X amount of time. Total RP buzzkill.

Oh totes, but no one said isolate and don't write with anyone lol. You just answered Boggo's question - will you die if one faction goes under and a similar but new faction springs up in it's place - same folks and everything? No, cause he still has his story.

That's the whole point being made: There will still be GA's, SE's and Empires that continuously pop up, even on the off chance such a rule is actually implemented. It'll be more or less the same people running them. But it keeps things interesting and fresh encourages story in the time they are on the board. But granted, 2 years may be a bit short, which is why I suggested Timeline Update Map wipes. Will it be a virus that causes it IC? An extra-Galactic power like the Vong? Another Omni? The possibilities are endless and can make for even better story for a faction resurgence afterward.

 

[Srina Talon]

I can't say I'm in favor of this suggestion, mostly, because every faction operates differently with different peak points even if they are a new Light or Dark sided faction. It can take different amounts of time for those stories to unfold and most of the time they're not predetermined. Factions provide members with basic framework and they build from there. Placing an artificial expiration date on them could result in killing muse and more importantly be "anti-rp" in the grand scheme of things.

When the interest in a faction lacks they wind up recalled to allow room for new factions to take their place.

There's a lot more I could say but I'm honestly enjoying you guys discussing it. It's a thought provoking suggestion with solid, salt-free answers and opinions. Good job you guys!

 

[Judah Lesan]

As long as a major faction is producing activity to keep them viable there is no reason to put a timeline on their existence. We have done map wipes and poofenings before, but those were for specific circumstances.

IMO this suggestion feels like a reaction to the first major faction recalls since the poofening and it is trying to solve a problem that doesn’t exist.

Some faction ideas fail or lose steam faster than others. There are factions, like SJO, GA, CIS, SO, the first GA, FO, Lords of the Fringe, TSE, etc, which all had great runs. Those that met their end did so at different times, and others are still going in some fashion.

For now, I do not think there is an issue with how we handle recalls and it’s much more chill than it was before the poofening.

 

[Mother Askani]

Not sure i’d be in favor of this - I actually enjoy seeing factions have longevity, and if their able to do so even better in my opinion because activity is clearly there, and folks are enjoying themselves in some form or fashion, why take that away?

But seeing as this seems to be a what if scenario only, and if there was some sort of rule or mechanic that laid this out — I think it could spur people to think outside the box more? And make the most of your time, which isn’t a bad thing. But then what happens when those folks are enjoying it so much that they want to keep it going? Should they be allowed to? It wouldn’t be fair to strip that opportunity away.

Outside of this, I do think it helps when groups have a narrative goal because then you can create towards that together overall, and maybe this mechanism would help put that in place, but who knows. Though I could see this as a way to break up the monotony or space on the board, it’d just be tough because sometimes it takes a while for factions to reach a peak in a specific story.

Someone mentioned the SJO, and I just want to say, I think they lasted for however long they did because they weren’t afraid to iterate as the story or otherwise demanded. When you open up the toybox for new players and ideas, it attracts other people who may not have fit previously, which then spurs more ideas.

 

[Seva Beroya]

As long as a major faction is producing activity to keep them viable there is no reason to put a timeline on their existence. We have done map wipes and poofenings before, but those were for specific circumstances.

IMO this suggestion feels like a reaction to the first major faction recalls since the poofening and it is trying to solve a problem that doesn’t exist.

Some faction ideas fail or lose steam faster than others. There are factions, like SJO, GA, CIS, SO, the first GA, FO, Lords of the Fringe, TSE, etc, which all had great runs. Those that met their end did so at different times, and others are still going in some fashion.

For now, I do not think there is an issue with how we handle recalls and it’s much more chill than it was before the poofening.

I don't think the recalls or any one thing in particular were the reason behind this suggestion. It's just nice to see other ideas and discuss it without being butts about it. So far everyone is having civil convos and everyone makes valid points and, incidentally, majority are against it anyway. Still nice to see the different points for and against being made

 

[Caelan Valoren]

Oh totes, but no one said isolate and don't write with anyone lol. You just answered Boggo's question - will you die if one faction goes under and a similar but new faction springs up in it's place - same folks and everything? No, cause he still has his story.

That's the whole point being made: There will still be GA's, SE's and Empires that continuously pop up, even on the off chance such a rule is actually implemented. It'll be more or less the same people running them. But it keeps things interesting and fresh encourages story in the time they are on the board. But granted, 2 years may be a bit short, which is why I suggested Timeline Update Map wipes. Will it be a virus that causes it IC? An extra-Galactic power like the Vong? Another Omni? The possibilities are endless and can make for even better story for a faction resurgence afterward.

There will be. But they won't be the same. And an OOC end to an IC thing is immersion breaking.

 

[Corey's OOC]

This idea is wonderful. No further comment. Five eggplant emojis

 

[Seva Beroya]

There will be. But they won't be the same. And an OOC end to an IC thing is immersion breaking.

Fair point yeah

 

[Darth Empyrean]

It would certainly help burnout. But I also noticed, for a lot of factions- Sith, Imperial mostly, it's a re-hash of the same people, same writers, same stories, same motivations, same look, same motivations IC- so I always wonder why the Sith Empire burns out so many times.

The Sith Order isn't the TSE. I never wrote with TSE, and only one Admin on the team was apart of TSE. Just mentioning that quick, since its a common misconception. Also not much in terms of the same stories, but that's an easy parallel to draw if you didn't write in either of these groups.


As far as the idea we put expiration dates on factions, it sounds good in theory but probably wouldn't pan out. People already try to immediately resub their factions after they get recalled, the system would just end up being people remaking their same factions right after it came down. Would it make more sense if characters hide time limits? Yeah, I guess so, but characters and their arcs often outlast 2 years.

The bigger issue I see with a thought behind this is that it would somehow help burnout, or open up for more factions to be on the map. Long term factions are not the problem with new factions showing up, the reality is that factions are just hard to make successful, and making them last a while is even worse. Having to recreate a faction every two years on a time limit might swing the narrative a bit, but that doesn't mean inherently we'd get a better story - we'd probably just see a cycle of two year hyperactivity where a new major splurge goes up, then 10 die because it isn't easy sustaining hype for longer than a few months.

Expiration dates sound nice, but this feels like a rehash of the old 'we need a map clear' argument people made. It is generally given by those who aren't in the major faction game (and want to be) or don't have a good perspective for it. I don't know half the people making points here, so I won't make that assumption about them, but the arguments for an expiration date artificially just doesn't make much sense.