The Failure of the Armament Rating, Its Saving Graces, and the (possible) Future of the Starship Fac

[Camellia Swift]

[member="Captain Larraq"]

It does, it does a lot.

I refer you back to my first post.

Because it really does. The stuff like Long Range and type matter a bunch when it comes to carrying out an attack.

Plus another thought I realized is that an armament rating just doesn't give the impression of how much your being hit compared to actually listing your weapons out. If you're being hit by 50 turbolasers batteries, it sounds like your being hit hard! But if you're being hit by a 12/20 ehhhh it doesn't really paint a picture for me.

 

[Laira Darkhold]

Finally we could also say to heck with stats and just really accurately describe a ships abilities/strengths/weakness and let the RP do the rest.

I quoted myself for emphasis.

Seriously numbers don't matter for the writing unless you make them matter through guidelines. I no there is know way that a frigate is going toe to toe with my light star destroyer regardless of its guns. It just ain't happening. The old Order of Battle was what 1 Victory-class = 2 Strike-class = 4 Carrack-class. There I know it takes about four frigates to light me up and take down my Victory-class and even then, I am taking a few with me.

The new "elite" ships are putting emphasis on smaller ships because they can swarm and way, way, way outgun ships of a larger class if you look at it like that. Personally were I to run into a pair of these Maladi's with a Light Star Destroyer, I will communicate with the other person, but realistically, assuming I have a balanced or Assault style vessel those frigates are dead.

 

[Captain Larraq]

[member="Captain Larraq"]

It does, it does a lot.

I refer you back to my first post.

Because it really does. The stuff like Long Range and type matter a bunch when it comes to carrying out an attack.

Plus another thought I realized is that an armament rating just doesn't give the impression of how much your being hit compared to actually listing your weapons out. If you're being hit by 50 turbolasers batteries, it sounds like your being hit hard! But if you're being hit by a 12/20 ehhhh it doesn't really paint a picture for me.

That depends both on what's hitting you and what you're flying when you're being hit. On a 2km Star Destroyer, I could easily see an Armament Rating of 12 translating to 50 turbolaser batteries. And that might sound like a lot to a ship in the 800-1200m range, but to another 2km ship, that's nothing. Heck, even a reasonably well armed/armored/shielded ship in the 800-1200m range would consider that a 'moderate' assault to withstand.

 

[Camellia Swift]

[member="Captain Larraq"]

I just can't see it with a rating. I actually need to know to visualize it. That's me though, I'm a very visual rper. What I see I run through my head like a movie scene.

Plus again, that 12 rating does nothing to say whether there are any ion cannons leading the salvo, if I have better range than the enemy, if I have point defense capabilities to stop missiles.

So its really a concern this will just turn into who has a better rating and not how they use their weapons. If I try to do something smart I'll just be yelled at by someone being angsty I don't specifically have those weapons and my rating is lower so how come I get to do something. And I'll be angsty I can't outmaneuver someone because I'm bound by a rating that doesn't do my ship design justice and I have to deal with their angst insisting I lose because my rating is lower.

There will always be angst. Everyone's said that, but enforcing a rating only style is likely worse than what is going on now, which is mostly because there's no standard to keep the elite craft people keep mentioning from being out of line, because people can't be sure whether to compare by the rating or the old guide.

So far its best to either look at weapons listed by the 2.0, or do as [member="Draco Vereen"] said and find a way to point out what a standard is for guns AND ratings so people can use both interchangeably at the same time.

 

[Captain Larraq]

[member="Camellia Swift"]

Go look at the starship modification posts I made recently.

 

[Laira Darkhold]

I am perfectly fine with an elite ship pwning any normal ship of the same class, even able to duke it out and win with ships one class up.

The Issue, and I don't think it has come up yet is if some using the Elite Ships like the Maladi everyone is mentioning claims that their ship can out gun a star destroyer at 1/4 the size. That's when the problem arises. And yet again, I don't believe that has happened, but the way it looks is the way people take it and if you do the gun math, that bad girl weighs in at 100 missiles and 800 guns. Its what people believe is going to happen and its why its caused this conversation. People are worried that their 1,600 Star Destroyer is going to be killed by a 460 Meter Frigate simply because it has more guns and If they say it can't the person using the elite craft can tell the RPJ it can. I don't believe for an instant that is what would happen (No way can I believe that an RPJ would hear this discussion and side with 'Frigate owns the Destroyer' side). People take this very seriously, and they don't want to lose. They can only see how many guns, and thats what they are reacting to. I personally don't care how many guns the frigate has its not going to 1v1 pop a destroyer period.

(http://starwarsrp.net/topic/20980-how-to-build-a-starship-20/) Bigger than an assault star destroyer by the old rules, which again only becomes a problem if the Captain tries to argue that it can gut those ships 1v1.

 

[Camellia Swift]

[member="Captain Larraq"]

I did, we even talked about your keldabe pic remember.

you removed the old armaments for the ratings and I personally don't like it. I don't actually know what I'm being hit with and in all honesty would discount any claims of any armaments in rp being mentioned when it is no longer listed. I don't see an ion cannon so why should I be hit by them at long range when none exist, and why do I have to try and figure out where my armaments lie in the rating system? And of course if I did have a rating that ended up being lower and I were forced to remove my weapon list, someone would insist I lose for having a lower rating and that I can't use an ion cannon at long range if I don't have one shown, why should they be hit by something that I can't prove is there and could change in the next rp for all they know.

Ratings came only in the current system, and honestly I feel they're nothing but headaches, and if you aren't wanting to actually design a ship then why are you submitting one? Actual weapons are listed on the wookiee and how would you compare a canon ship to one in the factory that just uses a rating? Actual weapons were used first and they make more sense from a writing standpoint, especially for PvP. And if there had been ratings that equaled a certain number of guns before then hell I wouldn't complain, but doing so retroactively is too difficult and some ships will be retroactively screwed. Its best to leave things as they are or revert to listing weapons again, going all ratings for weapons is just not healthy for roleplay.

I'm still on board for the shield and hull rating since there's nothing there quantifiable before. And I still also think a utility rating is a moot point

 

[Camellia Swift]

[member="Draco Vereen"]

I only just saw the Maladi after this thread and I can agree with you there about the concern you can imagine. I think the other problem was that it was mass produced so the Sith/Titan Industries could just fill their whole fleet with them too.

Which is also partially a result of the fact there's no clear system of judging an elite craft and what is allowed for how many posts, and not just because the 2.0 to 3.0 guide leaves judging weapon counts a mess.

Still people will never stop being competitive, but I really believe that if you take away weapon lists you'll probably see more angst since the people who are already competing now will complain about what tactics are being used against them when they can't actually tell what the enemy ship is armed with. So if something happens they can't tell if its fair or OOC metagaming by the rper throwing whatever weapons will work best to help them win from situation to situation.

 

[Captain Larraq]

[member="Camellia Swift"]

Look again. Read the associated description under the ship's armament rating.

 

[Captain Larraq]

I am perfectly fine with an elite ship pwning any normal ship of the same class, even able to duke it out and win with ships one class up.

The Issue, and I don't think it has come up yet is if some using the Elite Ships like the Maladi everyone is mentioning claims that their ship can out gun a star destroyer at 1/4 the size. That's when the problem arises. And yet again, I don't believe that has happened, but the way it looks is the way people take it and if you do the gun math, that bad girl weighs in at 100 missiles and 800 guns. Its what people believe is going to happen and its why its caused this conversation. People are worried that their 1,600 Star Destroyer is going to be killed by a 460 Meter Frigate simply because it has more guns and If they say it can't the person using the elite craft can tell the RPJ it can. I don't believe for an instant that is what would happen (No way can I believe that an RPJ would hear this discussion and side with 'Frigate owns the Destroyer' side). People take this very seriously, and they don't want to lose. They can only see how many guns, and thats what they are reacting to. I personally don't care how many guns the frigate has its not going to 1v1 pop a destroyer period.

(http://starwarsrp.net/topic/20980-how-to-build-a-starship-20/) Bigger than an assault star destroyer by the old rules, which again only becomes a problem if the Captain tries to argue that it can gut those ships 1v1.

Actually, it's come very close to happening here. The only reason it didn't is because the thread petered out when the Primeval stopped posting. And the potential exists for it to happen in Valien's fleeting event where the initially drafted rules were heavily based upon gun math. And there's... I think 8 Maladi, a Dark Blade, and at least 2 other 'elite ships'. Granted, Ayden brought out his flagship... but has since abandoned the thread.

Spoiler

Fleeting System

For this battle I will be testing (yet another) fleeting system for myself. This is not compulsory, mandated or demanded. It is a way for me to provide transparent and predictable reporting into damage for the NPC fleet. Since the droids are there to be target practice, this works well.

Each ship has a shield and hull rating. This starts at full strength. Shields recover at 10% per turn whether or not they are fired on, except if they are at 0, in which case they can only be restored by not being fired at for a turn.

Determining damage will be based on the firing ship’s number of capital guns. This number of capital guns, based on fire arc and range, is totalled. In addition the following modifiers are totalled.

• Ion weapons: +100% damage vs shields.
• Heavy weapons: +100% damage.
• Range : -5% per hex vs capital ships, -10% per hex vs Escorts.
• Heavy Warheads: Number x 10.
• Warheads: Number x 2.
• Bombers: Number x 10.

Additionally I will roll a D20 each time a capital ship sustains hull damage. On a 20 I will add an additional D20x5% to it. If this second roll is also a 20, the ship is automatically destroyed.

 

[Camellia Swift]

[member="Draco Vereen"] [member="Captain Larraq"]

At this point I believe we've all had a say and different takes and what will be taken from this thread is what may. I feel like we've discussed this all rather courteously and with open minds too, so this likely will sound weird where I suggest we leave things as they are unless new opinions and voices surface. I mean we haven't fought and hopefully wouldn't, but without much point to back and forth the same things, at some point someone may become irritated at a lack of headway.

So call it cutting things off at a point of contentment?

^ w ^

 

[Laira Darkhold]

Agreed. I don't have anything beneficial to add at this point.
[member="Camellia Swift"]
[member="Captain Larraq"]

 

[Cyrus Tregessar]

I like what you did with your ship modifications, [member="Captain Larraq"], but I also like having defined numbers. Surely there's a balance that can be found there, something similar to what [member="Valiens Nantaris"] proposed, I imagine.

That would also alleviate concerns about people having the newest/flashiest tech designed to beat the latest defenses. Sort of.

If I ever get to a computer I'll have a much longer post on this.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

[member="Cyrus Tregessar"] [member="Captain Larraq"]

The issue is that people are using dev threads to over-power their ships and break the balance.

If nothing else happens, that has to stop.

With a combined scale it would be simple to stop a ship going above a certain amount. If corvettes are set to operate between 6-8 for instance anyone trying for a 9 in other system will have to massively compromise in other areas.

 

[Gir Quee]

It looks to me that we're starting to discuss two separate issues:

1. If the armament ratings system would be effective compared to older rule sets.

2. General concerns about a how "Elite ships" affect gameplay

Perhaps we should start another thread for the "Elite ship" topic in general.

But overall, would people say that it would benefit the community to come up with standards or guidelines for making "elite ships"?

 

[Cyrus Tregessar]

I think you're on to something, [member="Gir Quee"], maybe make a note of 'Elite' ships which are allowed to break the rule to some degree but are limited to how many you can bring to a fight.

Of course then you're likely to see everyone's flagship in a battle be some awesomely powerful elite ship designed to kill the other elite ships and we're back to square one.

 

[Laira Darkhold]

http://starwarsrp.net/topic/56364-elite-ships/
Here I made another thread.
[member="Cyrus Tregessar"]
[member="Gir Quee"]
[member="Valiens Nantaris"]

 

[Anija Betna]

[member="Captain Larraq"]

http://starwarsrp.net/topic/56364-elite-ships/

 

[Tefka]

I'm just gonna say this and get it out of my system.

I don't care for Starships or Fleeting. But I want to appease the fleeting crowd, I really do.

These are some good ideas, but then, Factory 3.0 had some good ideas. Factory 2.0 had some good ideas.

Factory 1.0 was a breakthrough and an introduction to a new style of role-playing very few of us were used to at the time.

And there have been countless, countless hours poured into this both by myself and a plethora of other judges.

I just have the feeling - no, the knowledge - that this specific niche will never be fully appeased.

This isn't EVE. This isn't Kerbal. This isn't a video game. We're writing stories, not rolling dice or comparing stats. That was never meant to be the focus of this community, by any member. The Factory was created as a supplement to role-playing, not as a game unto itself.

This is the end of the line for the foreseen future of my assistance with Starship templates & the Starship Factory.

You'll have to appeal to the Factory Admin and see what he says.