Star Wars Roleplay: Chaos

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Thoughts about Tiers 1 - 3

Jsc

Disney's Princess
The OP now regards Post 15 as the definitive reply to his musings and encourages all readers to view it as well. :)

Recently I noticed a difficult discussion about how to best approach 'peer evaluations in regards to Tier 3 (Master Rank Title Permissions). Here is fun except of thought that hit me. Read and discuss at your leisure. It's mostly me just talking out loud. And note. This is not meant as a correction or suggestion to how we already play the game. It is an invitation to see a brighter future. A world with less discrimination, segregation, and with a greater freedom in writing. A world where the Report Button really is all we need.

Cheers. :D

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Peer Evaluations in regards to Tier 3

Tiers 1 - 3 (Apprentice, Knight, Master) are just one of the last blight's chaos has yet to rectify in a long history of player discrimination throughout the PbP genre. Tiers exist to make PvP exclusive, separate players into castes, and keep 'power' away from new members. They promote pride, exclusivity, selfishness, hazing, and dominate bad goal setting habits.

Yet. Most players absolutely demand them.

Compare NFUs. They require no such PvP exclusivity, separation of powers, caste systems, and power gaps. All NFUs have discovered the Great Freedom. That all writers are created equal. Therefore, all their characters are also equal. All things being free according to imagination.

I won't comment about which writer gets to sit in which private club. I won't comment about how writers demand to practice segregation. But I will comment about the dangers of appeasing false gods for the sake of tradition and our own blind lust for fictional titles and delusions of grandeur.

The day when Tiers 1-3 no longer exist on this board, is the day when Force Users stop being OP, voting is no longer necessary, and we all see each other for what we really are. Equals.

Down with FU Tiers 1-3. Up, with all characters being made equal in the eyes of their creators. PvP included.

Don't hate the players. Fix the game.

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How the Admins shuffled the deck: A Website Mechanic?

For clarification's sake, the tier system is not canon. It is a website mechanic.

It is also not a necessary website mechanic. There are no necessary website mechanics beyond what Tef builds for us. I think we often put our own limitations on this website. Limiting ourselves in thought or remaining ignorant about the code and the server. And please note, The Report Button covers all abuses of power. People already do play Tier 3 characters with zero development towards those powers. I am one of them. [member="Karen Roberts"] (Tier 3) has 0 development threads. Zero. Nada. None. I received Tier 3 because I was chosen as a competent writer amongst my group of peers. Not because I grinded, gained xp, appeased a Faction quota, had 50 dev threads, used a Cash Shop Item, or leveled up my MMO.

Advancement to Tier 3 in many Factions is simply a process of hazing. Compare again, no NFU must endure this process of peer evaluation. Only the FU community demands to self evaluate it's members based on 'magical prowess'.

To continue. No 'power' or 'ability' or 'space magic' requires development. This is an illusion. A farce. A status quo. Created by members to give themselves the illusion of advancement within a space fantasy. The only real qualification for writing a Force Adept is having an imagination and a keyboard.

Returning to 'powers' and 'development'. Compare The Factory. No 'tech' or 'gizmo' or 'firearm' actually requires development. The Factory is an optional experience. You many equip or facilitate any 'power', 'tech', or 'gizmo' at any time. Abuse of power is always, and already, covered by the Report Button. No NFU requires 'development' to utility a 'power'. They only require a writer, an imagination, and a keyboard. Only the FU community demands such a practice.

Again. Please note. An approved submission in the Factory does not exempt said item from the practice of abuse. Approved items can still be 'abused'. Only the FU community still believes that a vote of confidence exempts a Tier 3 writer from abusing their space magic. It doesn't. Human nature to the contrary.

What we perceive is not real. We are interpreting Website Rules to fashion our own fantasy. So are many Factions. They see only in: Master and Jedi and Sith. They do not see in: Writer. They see only in: Exclude, Govern, Control, Segregate, Evaluate. They do not see that equality is already here. We are all the same.

A Master Vote isn't real. It's a tool of discrimination based on unquantifiable and fictional criteria. :D

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Popo

I'm Sexy and I Know It
NFUs go by reputation and so do FUs. The FU I'm fighting has put time and effort into their posts? Taken the time to develop their character through writing? Writes well and can give and take measured hits?

I'll take hits like [member="Ordo"] on a Friday night cause that's a good fight. Don't matter if I'm fighting a padawan or a Sith Lord.

That applies to NFUs, too.

Someone who's a jerk, takes no hits, godmods, powergames, and generally only cares about winning?

Nah, not playing that game. I'll sit in my corner and let you derp around against NPCs. Not going to feed the power trip.

That also goes for NFUs and FUs both.

It's all about mutual respect and fair play. I saw a fight between two characters that lasted two or three posts once and was a good fight. Why? Because one person didn't realize the other had a freeze ray and took the hit like a champ because that's what his character would do

I've also seen fights where a duel lasts for the entire invasion for no reason other than neither person wanted to lose, much less take a hit.

I've seen padawans topple Sith Lords and untrained force sensitive topple empires. I've seen stormtroopers take on Jedi Masters and win and a random dude kill a planet with a karking rock.

It's not the rank, guys.

It's the maturity and sportsmanship.
 

Jsc

Disney's Princess
Solan Charr said:
Why does everyone forget the tier before padawan/apprentice.
Because our website rank titles currently only acknolgoes a "catch-all" system of 1,2,3. But! If we did away with that system? Factions would be free to create as many ranks as they would like.

Freedom! :D
 
That's not entirely true, the above.


You don't need to be in a faction to promote to Knight. Or master. In fact, if you look at the rules, you don't even need an IC master to promote you.




*In the case that no Force User Master is available, any Faction Administrator/Role-play Judge may represent the Apprentice as his/her Out of Character Master for promotion purposes.

Anyway! I don't see an issue with the rank system personally. Grant it, I'm a 'third tier OP', but I like my grinding.
 
Yeah some people get too carried away with teirs. I mean I would agree to an extent that the force level does somewhat determine the outcome, in that an apprentice level shouldn't be able to beat a Master level character, but they could still at least make one or two shots that show they're trying. And the other person they're fighting should acknowledge that as well.

Heck I've had three one-on-one fight threads in the past few weeks. Knight vs Master, Knight Vs Apprentice and Knight vs NFU. In all of them each player took the hits, despite the difference in power. Both me and the people I played with realized 'Yeah, you can't block them all but you can at least type it like you tried'. It's just not fair when you have people who think they can get away with anything because they claim to know more powers or something like that. And yeah, I dealt with that sort of BS in the past. Not fair and not fun at all.
 
Jay Scott Clark said:
The day when Tiers 1-3 no longer exist on this board, is the day when Force Users stop being OP, voting is no longer necessary, and we all see each other for what we really are. Equals.

I spent eight years on a SW board like that. It didn't turn out that way; in fact, it got pretty consistently ugly.
 

Jsc

Disney's Princess
Darth Raven said:
Not fair and not fun at all.


Popo said:
It's the maturity and sportsmanship.
I agree wiht everything above. Completely. But my thoughts do not revolve around 'fairness'. I'm mostly thinking about how we don't actually need 'peer evaluations' anymore. The Report Button really does cover everything. :D
 

Jsc

Disney's Princess
Jorus Merrill said:
I spent eight years on a SW board like that. It didn't turn out that way; in fact, it got pretty consistently ugly.
Wait. Really? Please explain. You're wrecking my utopia here. Noooooo! :D :p
 

Jsc

Disney's Princess
Solan Charr said:
Soooo *creates a hundred rank hierarchy faction*
  • Jedi Youngling Sub-text Guardian Sub-order Alchemy Guild Apprentice, skill level 1
  • Jedi Youngling Sub-text Sentienl Sub-order Bakers Guild Apprentice, skill level 1
  • Jedi Youngling Sub-text Consular Sub-order Fencers Guild Apprentice, skill level 1
  • etc...

Let's all go play an MMO! :p
 
Jay Scott Clark said:
I agree wiht everything above. Completely. But my thoughts do not revolve around 'fairness'. I'm mostly thinking about how we don't actually need 'peer evaluations' anymore. The Report Button really does cover everything. :D
No, the report button is for serious issues that can't be handled in another way. The RPJs deserve to have fun as well, not spend all their free time dealing everyone's drama.
 

Jsc

Disney's Princess
Dair Cotarin said:
No, the report button is for serious issues that can't be handled in another way. The RPJs deserve to have fun as well, not spend all their free time dealing everyone's drama.
Um. I was under the presentation that I could hit the Report Button for any violation of the Website Top Rules, at any time. I also have no idea how hitting the Report Button is a violation itself? Plz explain? :(
 
Jay Scott Clark said:
Wait. Really? Please explain. You're wrecking my utopia here. Noooooo! :D :p
I'll try and hit the high points as quick as I can. The bottom line is, when anyone can create a Master-level Force-using character for nearly any reason, any Force rank becomes instantly suspect and vulnerable to criticism, way more than here. And at the opposite extreme, where the vast majority of characters aren't Force-users at all, it becomes even more of a question of elitism.

Here, for all the system's imperfections, literally anyone can get a Master-level character if they work for it. Does that make them feel entitled? Probably, yeah. Does that make them attach more importance to a Master-level character's abilities than they should? Absolutely. Is it slower for some than it should be and faster for some than it should be? It's been known to happen, for sure. But doing away with formalized Force rank entirely isn't something that works. It should, I like the idealism behind your post, but it doesn't. If I'm reading you right and your ideal solution would be to take out promotion systems entirely -- well, let's even leave aside the example of the board I was on. That board never had a staff-recognized rank promotion and recognition system. Ours has had it, so here's how deregulation might play out.

  • 30 writers create Master-level characters overnight
  • 15 of them have no idea how to responsibly write that kind of power
  • Reports skyrocket
  • 'Well, HIS character was a Master BEFORE deregulation, so that rank is more real.'
  • Conflict. Lots and lots of it.
  • People demand a return to the old system or find another community that has a clearer work/reward/recognition link - basic game design theory.

Deregulation isn't the answer. If you can find a work/reward/recognition cycle for NFUs that works just as well as Padawan/Apprentice/Master, you can popularize NFUs and make FUs less important by comparison. I've made a LOT of tech to boost NFUs, so have a lot of other people, and all the tech in the world won't make people all that much more interested in playing an NFU. It's about the psychology of effort and reward. There is no systematized sense of achievement for playing an NFU of whatever stripe. And while some like the Adept/Elite three-tier ranks that the other place had -- and that might be cool and effective here -- most people over there still played FUs.

So that's your silver bullet. Find a work/reward/recognition mechanism for characters OTHER than movie-protagonist-grade Forcers, and you'll get something pretty close to your ideal -- and a heck of a lot more engaging for the whole community.
 

Jsc

Disney's Princess
[member="Jorus Merrill"] Having no experience in the matter, I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree with you. That was an excellent explanation, with proven experience, and given without spite for my lack of understanding. You sir, have made a student out of me. And I am better for it.

Thanks dude. :D
 
[member="Jay Scott Clark"]

At no point did I say it was a violation, but common sense should rule in regards to the report button.

We have an awesome team of RPJs that go through every part of an issue with a fine toothed, impartial comb. That takes a serious amount of time. After they go through the issue they get the stories from as many sides as there are. That takes more time.

Just saying that we take out the system that can help keep issues that aren't serious of their table is irresponsible in my opinion.

Also, getting the recognition of my faction in terms of a promotion really helps me have a goal and improves my morale.
 

Jsc

Disney's Princess
[member="Dair Cotarin"] I think you're completely right. I believe it is safe to say that I had an obsession with seeing the glass as half empty, rather than half full. Well said. :D
 

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