To be Mando or not to be Mando, that is the question?

[Strider Garon]

Coming back to activity after a long AWOL i have come across some interesting developments that i think should be discussed as a whole on this site. Lets talk about this subject that i am very interested in exploring.

Question: Am I part of the Mandalorians if i am not actively or non existentially part of the "Major" faction?

My answer: In my opinion, i would say yes you are unless you (as a individual creative writer part of this community) state otherwise. If you are following the mandalorian culture IC wise then by all means you are part of the mandalorian faction as a whole, even if you are not a active participant, say in doms, factions threads and so on.

Mini question: Does this mean i can challenge for Mand'alor?

My Answer: Once again, in my own opinion. Straight out answer would be no, unless you have a strong story arc and good collaboration with fellow mandalorians, the answer would be no. Like in real life. If you plan on taking a position of leadership, you "MUST" have confidence in yourself that you are able to lead, even if its just in a story. You "MUST" have a majority backing and mutual respect from you fellow writers IC and OOC in order to get such accomplished. That goes with out saying. So, if you are rping a mandalorian outside the faction as a whole for what ever reasons but all of a sudden you want to take claim. The majority of us mandalorian writers are not going to accept your rule IC or OOC and there will be backlash/outcry. Why would we as Mando writers want someone to lead us, that doesn't want to rp with the group as a whole? Just common sense there.

Side Note: This is my opinion and my opinion alone. This thread is open to all to respectably be heard on their own opinion of the subject. Communication is best and fruitful, a great learning experience for us all can be had here.

 

[Kurayami Bloodborn]

Alright to answer the first question. Yes you can consider yourself a Mandalorian without being part of the Mando'ade major faction, and are free to write with us. However within that you need to make sure that you are willing to work with the storyline in progress. I can personally attest that our FO and Admins would be happy to speak with you through PM and answer questions you have as to the state of things is currently within the faction's overall story and how we can help you write the story you want with us. As Strider above me said, being part of the faction is optional.

Now on to the second question. This I see as a bit more complicated. I agree that you should NOT be able to challenge for the title of Mand'alor until you have proven IC and OOC ability to lead and gained the respect and trust of those whom you would be leading in both realms as well. I don't care on how confident you are in yourself, or your ability to lead. Show me IC why my character should trust that you have the best qualities to lead, and OOC prove to me that you aren't just after the title of Mand'alor, or trying to settle some OOC dispute ore dislike of the person who currently holds the title IC. As Strider said, if you come in out of nowhere and haven't really been doing much interacting with the faction to see how the story is going and what we are trying to accomplish (or at the very least talking to people OOC to keep you up to date) and you come in to a thread and drop a challenge for the title, IC you are going to be laughed at and derided, just as any outsider who challenged would be. OOC something like that comes off to me as you have an issue that was never resolved with someone in the group or you just want to be able to say you lead the Mando'ade. Yea, that is going to create some negative feelings. So please, for the sake of what little sanity most on the board possess, just don't do it. Talk to the person who holds the title through PM work out an IC reason (with build up if you are an outsider from an IC perspective) for the challenge and go from there.

What I have said comes from my experience being a member of the Mando'ade IC and OOC for sometime now, they were willing to work with me and I managed to work out a way to introduce my character ICly into the story and the group was more than welcoming and willing to work with my ideas and work out ways to get a bit more recognition in the group IC as well as iron out details that may not have fit with the overarching story at the time. Good communication is really what it all comes down to.

 

[RC 212]

Wow what a loaded question. Having written with the Mandos on and off since 2013 this is a big one.

1.) You cant deny that the title of Mandalore is surely a big title in the SWRP realm. I mean to be real here, you have to hold some sway IC and OOC. Yes you can challenge someone for it, but be ready to accept the consequences if you fail (See Jack Raxis LOL)

2.) It ain't that hard to be a Mando. The biggest thing I see that hinders the culture or faction as a whole is just a general lack of activity, which I would love to be fixed. Let's face it though, we attract the hot headed, hard chargin, combat oriented writers. I'd like to see more of the culture RP'ed outside of combat, which is what I aim to do with this char

3.) As far as the Olivia Dem'das thing challenging Vilaz, I see that as completely and utterly justified IC. I understand the circumstances that occurred OOC, however I believe it was blown up to be way bigger than it has to be. I believe everyone should have a fair shot, and we should actively encourage a changeover of Mandalores so as not to get stale (Every six months to a year maybe?)

4.) Anyone should be able to challenge for Mand'alor. Just my belief, as long as they have a solid presence within the factions.

Heres the deal guys. I don't think people challenge just because they wanna be dicks. I don't think it has anyhting to do with the OOC element at all. Some folks IC just wanna see the Mandos switch direction, which is totally ok. I mean look at how we were a year to two years ago. Stagnant with no centralized leadership. Then we brought back the Mand'alor and things were rolling again

I also believe to keep things rolling we should accept challenges made IC and just roll with it. Yes OOC communication and trust is key. However, to draw new members, we gotta have incentive.

Also just RP with the faction. Why not? Find a person, PM them or just jump in.

(I'm on my third beer and this kinda makes sense to me but eh. HMU if you want clarification. I will Happily provide)

• RC 212
• Jack Raxis, the Dar'Manda
• Alleria Fett, the honorable Skyfighter

Woot!

 

[Kad Tor]

My opinions of course:

1. If you are writing a Mandalorian and following the 6 tenets than there is no reason you can't be considered Mandalorian whether you write with the major faction or not. We have seen a wide variety over the years (I've been active since 2013) and for the most part it has been awesome. The idea is to advance the Mandalorian story as a whole. If you join the major faction then welcome aboard and help us write the narrative we are running with. If you don't and want to run with your own great, but also be aware there is IC history.

2. I have ALWAYS been of the opinion Mand'alor should ALWAYS be an NPC. I've been accused otherwise because I haven't made changes on individuals time tables i.e. in less than 24 hours of the conversation. Here are my reasons:

Reason’s for NPC Mand'alor
1. This keeps ultimate control of what Mandalorians are away from any one person.
2. It keeps any one person from being able to control the faction and subvert the staff if they saw fit.
3. It allows the faction to focus on story not position
4. It kills any type of need to draw a line in the sand as a faction
5. It allows the faction to focus on Mandalorian culture and the different families among it

We no longer run on a model where the Faction owner is Mand'alor or even an admin, but because of the six tenets any person could try and take the title and do what... by any right we all have to abandon the direction of our faction and follow someone who isn't part of it? No, if there is to be a PC Mand'alor they must be active in the major faction both OOC and IC.

I would normally agree with [member="Alleria Fett"] about anyone challenging if they are part of the faction, but then they say Olivia's claim was justified. Based on what? The writer was not actively writing that character until the line in the sand thread, and was never part of the faction OOC. Their own criteria disqualifies that.

As a whole what happened? Most of the writers in the major faction allowed 2 writers to get the faction off base on story and direction. Further affirming my stance that we need an OOC Mand'alor. The One Sith and the First Order have proven a centralized leader is best done as an NPC. That way OOC changes do not interupt the flow provided faction staff is leading well.

Which highlights another issue. Since Mand'alor is no longer an automatic staff position OOC there is no teeth to make it stick. If the mando writers don't follow you don't have a leader. You just have some dude taking a walk. That's the case for anyone. Olivia, Vilaz, Gil, Az, and any of the characters that have held the title before.

Lengthy response here I know, but seriously. Let's just write stories rather than constantly argue over which writer should be the sole ruler.

 

[RC 212]

[member="Kad Tor"]

Aye!

However I think we NEED Mand'Alor to be a PC.

In the past it is just boring as NPC. I mean c'mon bro what is more moto than the Mand'alor charging into battle IC and ramping up his troops. I do agree IC and OOC should be separate, but there is a need to balance out both really.

I guess I'd just like to see a Mand'alor that is active and engaged in nearly every thread and aspect of his/her society IC.

(also no secrets, I'd like to have Alleria challenge and hold the title for a bit IC)

 

[Strider Garon]

[member="Alleria Fett"]

I am all for a PC mand'alor. I like the one we have.

Mand'alor PC needs to be a person of strong leadership skills, written and non written. Even though its not a staff position the person who writes and holds the mantle still holds a lot of sway in the mandalorian community and highly affects us all. Has to be approachable for IC and OOC reasons. Be able to communicate and collaborate not just with the Mandalorian Admin team but with the rest of the site as well. Has to be active and engaged with the mandalorians as a whole and especially with the major faction. And yes, has to be open to the possibility of challenge.

Challengers Responsibility should be that they have a legit IC reason to be Mand'alor. Remember, the title is not like being a king or queen where folk kiss your arse at every moment notice. The red carpet rolled out at every stop you make. Thats just not how the mandalorians treat their top dog. Yes, the character holds a lot of respect and gets treated with such, but you are not an Emperor. The mantle should not be multiple seasons of GoT and any right minded Mando should not actually want to strive for such. Food for thought to keep in mind for those people that have ambitious plots. To challenge for leadership you must full heartily believe that change in leadership is needed and will positively move the faction forward in progress. You must ooc and IC have a grand standing with your fellow writers/mandalorians, in that you are active and engaged with plots in the faction and on the site. Openly communicate with the community that you wish to do such. Listen an take census. Work respectably with your counterpart with the challenge. It really comes down to the fact, if we as the mandalorian writers want you to be our leader. You will be. If we don't, we are not going to have you for long.

 

[Ellie Mors]

Question: Am I part of the Mandalorians if i am not actively or non existentially part of the "Major" faction?

Yes, so long as you want your character to be Mandalorian.

Mini question: Does this mean i can challenge for Mand'alor?

Assuming the Mand'alor is in a faction, I'd lean towards no, assuming the faction is requesting you to join and you want to do otherwise. That's just the nature of the beast - how are you supposed to lead a faction full of people without actually wanting to be a part of that? Where & how are you going to communicate with the (presumably) large amount of writers when you don't want to use a forum construct made specifically to do just that?

Yeah, the faction might let you (as in the faction administration), but that doesn't change the fact that you'd only be hampering the ability to remain a cohesive unit without actively trying to stay together.

 

[Ellie Mors]

Let's just write stories rather than constantly argue over which writer should be the sole ruler

I would argue that there's a fundamental difference between the contextual ruler of a planet/people, and the sort of ruler you'd define Mand'alor as.

A king or queen is largely inconsequential to the RP of any given people, as is an uninvolved emperor or grandmaster of some order led by a council.

An active and engaging leader whose position is meant to carry their people and define that era is far more important.

An NPC is meant for characters that do not need to be written as a player character or are unable to be written due to lacking someone wanting to do so.

The Dark Lord for the One Sith was able to be written as an NPC because, aside from the backstory of the faction, he literally did not matter except as an idea. As long as the Dark Lord was kept largely away from direct RP it didn't matter if he was an NPC or if he even existed. The moment a character like that becomes more involved in RP than simply being a background piece meant to add flavor to RP is the moment it begins to become a bit more difficult to use them as an NPC.

 

[Alkor Centaris]

I like the idea of NPC Mando'alor because it takes away the excessive drama that's born from the belief that a single person can dictate the overall direction of an entire group of people are writing.

Dario has zero control over what's written by the Mando'ade faction beyond what the faction leaders ultimately decide for the next move. That doesn't stop people from feeling that the position IC gives him that power. It's a middle man mentality that does nothing but amount to feel good.

And it causes jealousy, malcontent, and misunderstanding.

That said, Vilaz is a great character and the position makes sense for right now- I'd just prefer to see it phased out. There's no need for Crusade, no need to unify all the Mando characters who want nothing to do with the faction to what the rest of us want.

Hell, if there's anything I don't want, it's to be cornered into a thread with someone who's only there out of spite.

 

[Ellie Mors]

And it causes jealousy, malcontent, and misunderstanding.

Don't you dare take away my nourishment.

 

[Kad Tor]

The Dark Lord for the One Sith was able to be written as an NPC because, aside from the backstory of the faction, he literally did not matter except as an idea. As long as the Dark Lord was kept largely away from direct RP it didn't matter if he was an NPC or if he even existed.

This is EXACTLY what I am suggesting Mand'alor should be on the boards. I mean how did all this start anyway. Someone made the first mando faction and OOC declared themself to be Mand'alor. That puts too much control in the hands of one writer. Many want to say that this is all IC and no OOC at all. However everytime there has been a change in PC Mand'alor it was due to the Faction Owener stepping down.

Many of us writing with the Mando'ade (Aka'liit) when Guy started the faction recognized how that simply failed. Since we moved away from a structure where the writer of Mand'alor leads the faction OOC, I see no need for the IC position to be a PC.

 

[Jorus Merrill]

While I agree that NPC leaders can be the proverbial bomb, the Mandos as a whole seem especially prone to making a common and serious mistake: trying to prevent people from writing certain actions IC because of OOC opinions. I've seen that issue screw over Mandodom since, heck, mid-2013, when I was the one making that error, and it's just gotten bigger and worse and more insidious over the years. More than once (including several times in the last few months), it's turned into 'I have opinion X, therefore your character shouldn't do Y, and I'm going to ignore that you wrote your character doing Y.' It's happened over and over and over again, and I've never seen it lead to anything constructive.

Fortunately, it's an easy cycle to break. Someone writes something IC, you don't freak out OOC about the Way Things Should Be, you go tackle the problem IC. IC problem, IC solution.

 

[Ellie Mors]

I mean how did all this start anyway. Someone made the first mando faction and OOC declared themself to be Mand'alor. That puts too much control in the hands of one writer. Many want to say that this is all IC and no OOC at all. However everytime there has been a change in PC Mand'alor it was due to the Faction Owener stepping down.

I don't disagree, an IC position should rarely, if ever, be reserved for the faction owner/admins.

Many of us writing with the Mando'ade (Aka'liit) when Guy started the faction recognized how that simply failed. Since we moved away from a structure where the writer of Mand'alor leads the faction OOC, I see no need for the IC position to be a PC.

I think you're associating the failure of the idea that keeping an IC position tied to a faction's OOC leadership (Faction owner) to the idea that an IC position of leadership being tied to a PC is a failure. The two aren't directly related, the only thing that makes the two similar is that a real person was involved in both instances.

The Mand'alor as a character is a warlord for lack of a better term, and an involved one at that. The only way it would make sense to keep it away from RP or to even remove it would be to fundamentally change what Mandalorians are. They're a warring people, and the Mand'alor is the person who leads them into battle. If you fully expect someone to fight an NPC Mand'alor with the same given respect as they would a PC, that's not exactly how an NPC works. If you expect to never let it see RP outside of superfluous background RP with the faction in faction-only RP threads, that doesn't really sound, to me, like what a Mand'alor should be doing.

 

[Alkor Centaris]

I think the wavelength we seem to be on is "the role of Mand'alor," versus the intended message, "regardless of the role of Mand'alor, Mandalorians."

 

[RC 212]

While I agree that NPC leaders can be the proverbial bomb, the Mandos as a whole seem especially prone to making a common and serious mistake: trying to prevent people from writing certain actions IC because of OOC opinions. I've seen that issue screw over Mandodom since, heck, mid-2013, when I was the one making that error, and it's just gotten bigger and worse and more insidious over the years. More than once (including several times in the last few months), it's turned into 'I have opinion X, therefore your character shouldn't do Y, and I'm going to ignore that you wrote your character doing Y.' It's happened over and over and over again, and I've never seen it lead to anything constructive.

Fortunately, it's an easy cycle to break. Someone writes something IC, you don't freak out OOC about the Way Things Should Be, you go tackle the problem IC. IC problem, IC solution.

^^ This right here

Stop trying to OOC Micro IC actions of others. It actually really pisses me off to see someone make a challenge IC and have it just dismissed, or have a thread be closed and archived because things didn't go the way the writer wanted them to go.

If that's the case, you may as well just write with yourself and no one else. A common problem with the Mando's is the OOC leadership and senior members wanna railroad and dictate what will happen, who will do what, what is ok etc.

We've moved so far away from an open, fluid and spontaneous organic story in this community and more into the realm of "You can't do that because x'y'z, my planet is heavily defended by massive shield generators and amillion drones that would have intercepted you before you even come close," type of stuff it is disgusting.

I miss the days when I could just drop a nuke, and folks rolled with it. Or show up with a fleet, and olks rolled with it.

It's everyones story. Not yours, not mine, everyones.

This goes board wide, stop trying to micro and dictate peoples actions IC and OOC.

It's a game, if it's that serious, leave the site and get a life plse.

Prime example beside the last several years of mando OOC bickering, the Republic clone Rebellion. That was perhaps the final nail in their coffin.

Some folks got together IC and made some stuff happen that from an OOC viewpoint other folks didn't like, so they tried to shut it down and caused a huge drama war. Long story short, the Republic never recovered and died because of the toxic interactions therein.

Sorry

Rant over.

 

[Kad Tor]

[member="Alleria Fett"]

Look I get what you're saying... but ooc has to factor in. Major example. OOC we know Keira Ticon challenged Vilaz Munin well before Olivia did... a good 6 weeks ooc. When Olivia made her challenge, IC the thread to determine the result of the challenge between Keira and Vilaz was barely underway. Timeline dictates that must be resolved before Olivia's challenge could even be taken seriously.

THEREFORE OOC knowledge has to dictate the second IC challenge invalid. I know you think it makes IC sense, but Olivia's challenge makes NO SENSE when there is an outstanding challenge to deal with. There are just some things you can't roll with, because other IC circumstances dictate certain actions if running in future threads.

Someone has to control and maintain that things like that happen first... and it is issues like this that make having an IC Mand'alor on this board an issue. 5 people could challenge without knowledge of the other depending on how the threads are stacked... what do you do? Who has a more valid claim? Which one came first? Who decides the timeline of when each challenge occurred?

Everyone wants things to be IC only, but as you have stated, it is a game, and therefore someone has to be the game master when issues like this happen. The PROBLEM is when people don't get their way as a result of an asymmetry of information.

You can't base decisions solely on IC in decisions like this... and you can't solely on OOC either. That's what people need to understand. It's also why people will never agree on OOC Mand'alor vs IC Mand'alor.

 

[Eugen Aker]

[member="Kad Tor"]

What prompted the first Line in the Sand thread, and waving around the threat of Dar'manda to people who didn't agree with the policies of Vilaz/Mando leadership?

 

[Kurayami Bloodborn]

[member="Arisa Yune"] So far as I know it was an attempt at getting the active clans to either come and support the current Mand'alor, or have the chance to walk away and face no repercussions. Only thing is that by the reasoning of the clans loyal to Vilaz they would be considered dar'manda, but would not be hunted or pursued. No attempt to kill or change their minds would be made. They simply symbolically burn their banner and leave. That was the intent. However it quickly went south when Olivia told Isley to let Vilaz(who was not currently present IC) know that she was challenging him for the title. Isley refused. It looked like Olivia may challenge Isley for a time, but Vilaz did show ICly and eventually the thread was archived as the staff OOC hadn't all known about it beforehand. Olivia then copied her post and started part 2 which is where things really got more than a bit crazy as I am sure you have noticed by now.

The challenge made by Olivia would have been considered more valid had she followed the traditional setup of the battle circle in Mando culture. The one challenging does not decide the terms, it is the one who is challenged who sets the terms, due to them being the one having their honor and skill called into question. She refused his terms which would have invalidated her challenge on its own.

That is just what I have gathered from having read the first thread(and i may have missed key details given my memory of it is a bit hazy). The second part was based on the understanding of the battle circle article on wookie. Specifically the portion under History where the challenge from the quatermaster is mentioned.

 

[Eugen Aker]

[member="Kurayami Bloodborn"] I think it would have been best to let people go their separate ways without the Dar'manda/banishment threat to avoid drama. More listening and fewer ultimatums.

[member="Strider Garon"]

The real question that should be asked is why anyone felt the need to challenge Vilaz in the first place. I'm sure no one does so willy-nilly without a good reason. You provided an excellent summary of qualities that a good Mand'alor and leaders, in general, should have. Perhaps the challenger simply did not believe that Vilaz exhibited said qualities? I like the writer behind Vilaz, and I think he's cool on a personal level, but there could be some legitimate criticisms levied at him as Mand'alor. Even if the challenge wasn't deemed legitimate, I think the event begs some reflection on the current IC and OOC leadership's part.

 

[Kenrath]

[member="Arisa Yune"]

The reasons to challenge Vilaz for Manda'lor number in the dozen's both OOC and IC. The only issue I see is that the many IC reasons to do so are not being brought to light as a means to validate any challenge brought forth.

Now granted I have only read half of the threads so it is possible I have missed something.

Although I have no interest in a challenge with my Mando character a big reason I see is in the first thread started by Isley is the understanding that Vilaz has ordered the forced dissolution of the Clans. With the penalty of refusing being each person who doesn't will be declared Dar'manda and hunted down as an enemy of Mandalore.