Thus Saith the Lord
As has been said before good and evil are perspectives this don't really exist. Further more not all sith are evil most are but some arn't. For example I don't view Lucien as evil but he is a dark sider
Star Wars Roleplay: Chaos
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- Status
- MASSIVE SQUIRREL OPINION BEGINS -
Good and evil do exist. What follows morality is good and what goes against it is bad. Sith are typically bad because they are most likely not moral at all. Seriously, they are driven by anger... Such anger is not moral. Killing people like this, using the most offensive Force powers... Without having to go further, I must say Sith are evil. Like everywhere, there are exceptions, though. But most of Sith are evil.
Their intentions may be good, but they are doing it the wrong way. Jedi, however, are good. They don't let the bad things drive them like Sith do. Well, yes, passion can be a good thing, but the things Jedi seek for are far better.
And I was not talking about a personal moral code, but about society's one, common morality. Maybe my opinion is heavily influenced because of my own personality and I can't see things maybe some see them. I believe Jedi are the best because they have good intentions and are using the right ways to get there. Peace is always better than emotions (well, yes, happiness and surprise and whatever else are good, but they are not something Sith are driven by).
I am afraid I could rant here for quite a long time, but my main reason will remain the same:
The ones who act according to the moral code are good (most Jedi) and the ones who don't do that are evil (most Sith).
- SQUIRREL'S RANTING ENDS -
Good and evil do exist. What follows morality is good and what goes against it is bad. Sith are typically bad because they are most likely not moral at all. Seriously, they are driven by anger... Such anger is not moral. Killing people like this, using the most offensive Force powers... Without having to go further, I must say Sith are evil. Like everywhere, there are exceptions, though. But most of Sith are evil.
Their intentions may be good, but they are doing it the wrong way. Jedi, however, are good. They don't let the bad things drive them like Sith do. Well, yes, passion can be a good thing, but the things Jedi seek for are far better.
And I was not talking about a personal moral code, but about society's one, common morality. Maybe my opinion is heavily influenced because of my own personality and I can't see things maybe some see them. I believe Jedi are the best because they have good intentions and are using the right ways to get there. Peace is always better than emotions (well, yes, happiness and surprise and whatever else are good, but they are not something Sith are driven by).
I am afraid I could rant here for quite a long time, but my main reason will remain the same:
The ones who act according to the moral code are good (most Jedi) and the ones who don't do that are evil (most Sith).
- SQUIRREL'S RANTING ENDS -
Cameron Centurion
The First Son
"Common" Morality is a facade. Everyone always presumes their morality is popular morality because they can only speak to what they actually know.
Also there is nothing more dangerous (on either side of the coin) than a person that believes their actions are in lock-step with their moral code and are therefore completely justified. Life is shades of gray not black and white.
The good vs evil argument...meh too narrow. That being said in canon yes of course Sith are the bad guys and Jedi are the good guys. It's precisely as the one person who created Star Wars saw it so of course it must be the only way! George Lucas isn't here and this is all for funsies but... Both sides think their way of life (morals and all) is the best, so they kill to maintain it. Those that oppose their way of life are evil, infidels, heretics, whatever. Period.
Spoiler Alert: Every civilization in real life does precisely the same thing. I promise you.
I will submit to you that the Sith believe only through conflict and struggle are individuals forced to realize their true potential, becoming the best, most capable versions of themselves and therefore creating a society of strength while the weak are cast aside or washed away. We just want everyone to be not-the-suck, like us, or die.
Anyways. I probably should have stuck with non-serious responses.
So!
I shall sign up to contribute to three additional charities, bringing the total to 8. I'll see you "good guys" on Ossus
Also there is nothing more dangerous (on either side of the coin) than a person that believes their actions are in lock-step with their moral code and are therefore completely justified. Life is shades of gray not black and white.
The good vs evil argument...meh too narrow. That being said in canon yes of course Sith are the bad guys and Jedi are the good guys. It's precisely as the one person who created Star Wars saw it so of course it must be the only way! George Lucas isn't here and this is all for funsies but... Both sides think their way of life (morals and all) is the best, so they kill to maintain it. Those that oppose their way of life are evil, infidels, heretics, whatever. Period.
Spoiler Alert: Every civilization in real life does precisely the same thing. I promise you.
I will submit to you that the Sith believe only through conflict and struggle are individuals forced to realize their true potential, becoming the best, most capable versions of themselves and therefore creating a society of strength while the weak are cast aside or washed away. We just want everyone to be not-the-suck, like us, or die.
Anyways. I probably should have stuck with non-serious responses.
So!
I shall sign up to contribute to three additional charities, bringing the total to 8. I'll see you "good guys" on Ossus
Jsc
Disney's Princess
Writing Jedi is fun simply because this type of question is allowed to exist in the mind of the writer. Are the Sith evil? Are the Jedi good? Write long enough and you'll be given plenty of opportunities to be challenged towards just such things. It makes the whole experience that much deeper.
Karen kills Blackguards and Gray Jedi all the time. It's what makes her so interesting to write. She wants to be a good little Jedi but just can't seem to see how keeping them alive and unrepentant is a good thing. She's seen the revolving door, she's seen the world's laid waste, and she knows that not all Force Users are created equal. That said, she still thinks death is a great tool to use for galactic education. Does that make her evil? Well, yeah. It just might. And she owns that and I as her writer own that. But I'm not going to give her a Sith Tag just because she makes mistakes and believes a little in her own flawed humanity.
Real world example: If the God of Israel himself says we are all sinners, I don't think that is prerequisite enough to make all of humanity worthy of being called Sith. I think you just call being fallible an example being a good human. Likewise, I don't think that being a sinner disqualifies you from being a Jedi. I think being a sinner is absolutely necessary to being a good Jedi. But's that's a moral that can be hard to understand.
So. Are the Sith Evil? Well no... I think the Dark Side is entropy and it's followers just tend to want to become Avatars of it. It's like, evil by association in a way. The struggle to become Pure Evil keeps them human in a way. Like every single Sith seems to understand that there is a righteousness housed deep within them that must be expunged or burned out. And I think a lot of Jedi Heroes notice that. I think the Jedi notice that the Sith feel a need to fight against good. Not just outside themselves. But inside themselves too. Meaning that even a Sith can recognize the potential for good within themselves. It is what defines them. The Dark Side does not call a Sith evil. It is the Jedi who must define the Sith.
This is what makes the Jedi Path so darn amazing to write. Because eventually you reach a level were all the Sith you've been fighting stop being evil, and start being a mirror image of your own potential for darkness. A weakness that you yourselves possess simply by being fallible. Suddenly all those Sith you've ever fought, killed, or were wounded by... Are just other lost souls. Like you. People who in different circumstances and with different choices, could be right where you are standing now. As a fighting, struggling, and emotional being. A real and working Jedi.
There is a peace that can come as a Jedi when you realize that all your enemies are not evil in-and-of themselves. Though they might strive magnificently to prove it. It reminds you relevantly that there is nothing to fear, but fear itself. Because your good. Deep down, we're all good. We all possess the spark to become good people. We just haven't realized it or tried hard enough to prove it yet. And that some people will spend their entire lives fighting against goodness just to prove to themselves, in vain, that they can never be like it.
Luke could always have lifted up that X-wing from the swamp. Yoda knew that. Luke Skywalker could always have been Luke Skywalker. He just needed to believe hard enough and live hard enough, to prove it to himself. And it was that love, that belief, that taught his father the same. Anakin Skywalker could always have been good Anakin Skywalker. The Clone Wars taught us that. He just needed to remember who he really was. Anakin Skywalker.
Star Wars is not about being good or evil. It's about recognizing the power and potential of the human heart. Us.
Karen kills Blackguards and Gray Jedi all the time. It's what makes her so interesting to write. She wants to be a good little Jedi but just can't seem to see how keeping them alive and unrepentant is a good thing. She's seen the revolving door, she's seen the world's laid waste, and she knows that not all Force Users are created equal. That said, she still thinks death is a great tool to use for galactic education. Does that make her evil? Well, yeah. It just might. And she owns that and I as her writer own that. But I'm not going to give her a Sith Tag just because she makes mistakes and believes a little in her own flawed humanity.
Real world example: If the God of Israel himself says we are all sinners, I don't think that is prerequisite enough to make all of humanity worthy of being called Sith. I think you just call being fallible an example being a good human. Likewise, I don't think that being a sinner disqualifies you from being a Jedi. I think being a sinner is absolutely necessary to being a good Jedi. But's that's a moral that can be hard to understand.
So. Are the Sith Evil? Well no... I think the Dark Side is entropy and it's followers just tend to want to become Avatars of it. It's like, evil by association in a way. The struggle to become Pure Evil keeps them human in a way. Like every single Sith seems to understand that there is a righteousness housed deep within them that must be expunged or burned out. And I think a lot of Jedi Heroes notice that. I think the Jedi notice that the Sith feel a need to fight against good. Not just outside themselves. But inside themselves too. Meaning that even a Sith can recognize the potential for good within themselves. It is what defines them. The Dark Side does not call a Sith evil. It is the Jedi who must define the Sith.
This is what makes the Jedi Path so darn amazing to write. Because eventually you reach a level were all the Sith you've been fighting stop being evil, and start being a mirror image of your own potential for darkness. A weakness that you yourselves possess simply by being fallible. Suddenly all those Sith you've ever fought, killed, or were wounded by... Are just other lost souls. Like you. People who in different circumstances and with different choices, could be right where you are standing now. As a fighting, struggling, and emotional being. A real and working Jedi.
There is a peace that can come as a Jedi when you realize that all your enemies are not evil in-and-of themselves. Though they might strive magnificently to prove it. It reminds you relevantly that there is nothing to fear, but fear itself. Because your good. Deep down, we're all good. We all possess the spark to become good people. We just haven't realized it or tried hard enough to prove it yet. And that some people will spend their entire lives fighting against goodness just to prove to themselves, in vain, that they can never be like it.
Luke could always have lifted up that X-wing from the swamp. Yoda knew that. Luke Skywalker could always have been Luke Skywalker. He just needed to believe hard enough and live hard enough, to prove it to himself. And it was that love, that belief, that taught his father the same. Anakin Skywalker could always have been good Anakin Skywalker. The Clone Wars taught us that. He just needed to remember who he really was. Anakin Skywalker.
Star Wars is not about being good or evil. It's about recognizing the power and potential of the human heart. Us.
Yes.
Murdering innocents is evil. A Dark Side that decays the body and teaches you not to reign in your emotions, which then ends up with you slaughtering children and killing your wife, is evil. Societies built on assassinations are evil.
Etc.
There is no in between.
"B-but my baby killing Sith means well! He wants to be good."
That's cute.
"The road to hell isn't merely paved with good intentions; it's walled and roofed with them. Yes, and furnished too." - Aldous Huxley
Murdering innocents is evil. A Dark Side that decays the body and teaches you not to reign in your emotions, which then ends up with you slaughtering children and killing your wife, is evil. Societies built on assassinations are evil.
Etc.
There is no in between.
"B-but my baby killing Sith means well! He wants to be good."
That's cute.
"The road to hell isn't merely paved with good intentions; it's walled and roofed with them. Yes, and furnished too." - Aldous Huxley
Cira
Best Onion
Yes.
Eternal Father
2evil4u
Antoir Setrrin
I've Met My End
I REQUIRE MORE LIKES SO I MAY RUN AMOK IN THIS THREAD~
Morality is a frail, fragile thing. Truly, there is no such thing as wrong or right. All of that muck is all dependent on the person. We form societies with those who share the same main beliefs as us. Sith are good, Sith are evil. Same with the Jedi, and all other groups, fictional or not, that have existed.
No matter one's moral code, every society has done both good and bad.
It's a matter of perspective. The idea of what one has done more of.
Sith kill. Burn. Pillage.
But they bring order. Justice.
They are controlling, but well-meaning.
Or are they? It depends on the era, the people, the person you ask.
Arguments, no, discussions like these cannot be won. At the end, every person will walk out with their own opinion. Neither right nor wrong. But that's the beauty of it, isn't it? Just... hearing what others think. Quite an interesting thing, really.
Heh.
*jazz hands, as is tradition of all Sekairos*
Continue speaking while my likes recharge.
Morality is a frail, fragile thing. Truly, there is no such thing as wrong or right. All of that muck is all dependent on the person. We form societies with those who share the same main beliefs as us. Sith are good, Sith are evil. Same with the Jedi, and all other groups, fictional or not, that have existed.
No matter one's moral code, every society has done both good and bad.
It's a matter of perspective. The idea of what one has done more of.
Sith kill. Burn. Pillage.
But they bring order. Justice.
They are controlling, but well-meaning.
Or are they? It depends on the era, the people, the person you ask.
Arguments, no, discussions like these cannot be won. At the end, every person will walk out with their own opinion. Neither right nor wrong. But that's the beauty of it, isn't it? Just... hearing what others think. Quite an interesting thing, really.
Heh.
*jazz hands, as is tradition of all Sekairos*
Continue speaking while my likes recharge.
Derisive Umbaran
Are most Sith evil? Let's consult a dictionary to find out the answer to a question that is so mind-numbingly obvious that every time a person disputes the clear, unavoidable answer, God urinates on a crippled orphan child.
Do Sith show malevolent tendencies?
YES. Sith are willing to stoop to many lows and crimes other people would not. Some Sith don't like to murder children, but if it coincides with their goals they most likely will. Sith are frequently, if not predictably, willing to advance themselves at the expense of others through amoral and malicious acts.
Are Sith immoral?
YES. Sith often have their own standards of what is right and what isn't. Nine times out of ten, they have very few things on their list of "things I won't do under any circumstances," if anything at all. The vast majority of Sith do not conform to accepted standards of morality. This is inherent in simply reading about any prominent Sith on Wookiepedia. Even Darth Vectivus, commonly regarded as an upstanding Sith, is described as ruthless.
Conclusion:
Sith are evil and, if you don't think so, you probably are, too.
- Evil - Profoundly immoral and malevolent.
Immoral - Not conforming to accepted standards of morality. - Malevolent - Having or showing a wish to do evil to others.
Do Sith show malevolent tendencies?
YES. Sith are willing to stoop to many lows and crimes other people would not. Some Sith don't like to murder children, but if it coincides with their goals they most likely will. Sith are frequently, if not predictably, willing to advance themselves at the expense of others through amoral and malicious acts.
Are Sith immoral?
YES. Sith often have their own standards of what is right and what isn't. Nine times out of ten, they have very few things on their list of "things I won't do under any circumstances," if anything at all. The vast majority of Sith do not conform to accepted standards of morality. This is inherent in simply reading about any prominent Sith on Wookiepedia. Even Darth Vectivus, commonly regarded as an upstanding Sith, is described as ruthless.
Conclusion:
Sith are evil and, if you don't think so, you probably are, too.
Thus Saith the Lord
by your definition Russia and America as countries are both evil. during the cold war both sides were more than wiling to let thousands die if not millions die in proxy wars and nuclear winters, so they could boost their egos that was both immoral and Malevolent. so I ask you was every 1950's American or Russian citizen evil because they worked in and supported their country?
I also point you to the sith code:
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
No where in that code is wanton slaughter or mass subjugation mentioned it mentions power and victory, the victory could well be in a cross stitch tournament
I also point you to the sith code:
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
No where in that code is wanton slaughter or mass subjugation mentioned it mentions power and victory, the victory could well be in a cross stitch tournament
Antoir Setrrin
I've Met My End
There are always those of another hide amongst the flock. A black sheep among the white, the grey. To say every Sith puts their lust for power over everything else is to delude yourself. Yes, a Sith that protects the weak and upholds all sorts of morals may be seen as... different, even shunned or attacked by their kin. But that does not mean they do not exist. Not all who walk in dark are shadows. Some shine a sort of light that can't be ignored. The majority of Sith use their anger. Other emotions, however, can also be used. They can fuel themselves on love, grief. And actions under those are not always destructive.
As I said before, it varies. Not all Sith are 'evil', and not all Jedi are 'good'.
But, of course, some Sith are undeniably evil. Even to someone who doesn't believe in morals.
As I said before, it varies. Not all Sith are 'evil', and not all Jedi are 'good'.
But, of course, some Sith are undeniably evil. Even to someone who doesn't believe in morals.
Velok the Younger
When I Was A Young Warthog
And now that Janus has tackled it from one side, let me tackle it from the other.
The fundamental principle of being a Sith is to do whatever you find necessary in order to achieve whatever you want, whatever your goal is.
Under any advanced social contract, you have rights right up until those rights run into (or infringe upon) the rights of others. A Sith sees those limitations as socially constructed. To some extent, that's true, but a Sith looks at the rights of others and says, always says, 'my goals, my security, my desires are more important than any of that.' A Jedi who desires to save the galaxy and is consistently willing to throw innocents under the bus in order to get there is, by definition, a Darksider whether or not anger is involved. Anger is only a path to the Dark Side, after all. The same applies to a Jedi who gets all immersed in 'righteous fury' and butchers Darksiders left and right.
Janus brings up Darth Vectivus, one of my favorites. His personal goal was business success, and he died of old age, in bed, surrounded by loving family. But one of the sacrifices he had to make to get the power to attain that success was the thing he loved second-most -- his mother.
TL;DR: If you're constantly willing to stomp on others regardless of their culpability and accountability, that's evil. Evil isn't a colour scheme; evil is behaviour.
The fundamental principle of being a Sith is to do whatever you find necessary in order to achieve whatever you want, whatever your goal is.
Under any advanced social contract, you have rights right up until those rights run into (or infringe upon) the rights of others. A Sith sees those limitations as socially constructed. To some extent, that's true, but a Sith looks at the rights of others and says, always says, 'my goals, my security, my desires are more important than any of that.' A Jedi who desires to save the galaxy and is consistently willing to throw innocents under the bus in order to get there is, by definition, a Darksider whether or not anger is involved. Anger is only a path to the Dark Side, after all. The same applies to a Jedi who gets all immersed in 'righteous fury' and butchers Darksiders left and right.
Janus brings up Darth Vectivus, one of my favorites. His personal goal was business success, and he died of old age, in bed, surrounded by loving family. But one of the sacrifices he had to make to get the power to attain that success was the thing he loved second-most -- his mother.
TL;DR: If you're constantly willing to stomp on others regardless of their culpability and accountability, that's evil. Evil isn't a colour scheme; evil is behaviour.
Lucien, No.
However, the people that made the decisions to sacrifice innocents were evil.
Saying Sith are ok as long as their intentions are good is like saying that the American slaughter of Filippinos during the War in the Philippines is chill because we Americans were just trying to bring them some good old civilization.
As soon as you start turning human life into statistics that can be exchanged because one has a greater numerical value on the scale of "Lives Saved" you're on the pathway to becoming a class A villain.
That type of consequentialism blows.
The "If there were two people tied to one set of rails and five people tied to another and you had the ability to change the tracks the train was on, would you let two people die, or five people die?" is a logical fallacy of bifurcation. If you only see two options and both are bad, obviously you choose the least of two evils, but that means you probably aren't looking hard enough.
However, the people that made the decisions to sacrifice innocents were evil.
Saying Sith are ok as long as their intentions are good is like saying that the American slaughter of Filippinos during the War in the Philippines is chill because we Americans were just trying to bring them some good old civilization.
As soon as you start turning human life into statistics that can be exchanged because one has a greater numerical value on the scale of "Lives Saved" you're on the pathway to becoming a class A villain.
That type of consequentialism blows.
The "If there were two people tied to one set of rails and five people tied to another and you had the ability to change the tracks the train was on, would you let two people die, or five people die?" is a logical fallacy of bifurcation. If you only see two options and both are bad, obviously you choose the least of two evils, but that means you probably aren't looking hard enough.
Derisive Umbaran
[member="Lucien Cordel"]
No, not every Russian and American citizen in the 1950s is evil. That's a silly thought. Just because someone is an unwitting servant of a generally unfavorable cause does not make them evil. No one considered the non-force sensitive civilian people trying to live their lives in peace under the Galactic Empire as evil, even though they paid their taxes to an evil cause and one they might not have agreed with. No one considered the citizens of the Sith Empire on this board as inherently evil either, just people living on the wrong planet during the wrong time.
No, not every Russian and American citizen in the 1950s is evil. That's a silly thought. Just because someone is an unwitting servant of a generally unfavorable cause does not make them evil. No one considered the non-force sensitive civilian people trying to live their lives in peace under the Galactic Empire as evil, even though they paid their taxes to an evil cause and one they might not have agreed with. No one considered the citizens of the Sith Empire on this board as inherently evil either, just people living on the wrong planet during the wrong time.
Seydon of Arda
Raquor'daan
The real question that's standing for me:
Is [member="Jay Scott Clark"] the true evil here?
Is [member="Jay Scott Clark"] the true evil here?
Fabula Caromed
Belle of the Brawl
lul @ this thread
Haven't you guys heard? All Sith are brooding anti-heroes using their Dark-but-not-evil powers for their own ambitious-but-not-evil goals.
Haven't you guys heard? All Sith are brooding anti-heroes using their Dark-but-not-evil powers for their own ambitious-but-not-evil goals.
Serana Onyx
The Shadow's Sister
It's really a thin answer of yes and no.
The Sith were created because a group of Jedi found some greater force powers. The other Jedi thought that having this power would corrupt and cast them out. These Outcasts created the Sith religion on Korriban (oh sorry, Morriband, stupid Disney) and began to expand on it. Now obviously they wanted revenge on the Jedi for casting them out. This lead to the creation of the Sith Empire. So in the core of it, the Jedi created the 'Dark Side' and the Sith.
Honestly I think that being a Sith allows for more clarity, since you unlock more of its power. But from a good/evil standpoint I think it depends on the point of view. Do you think a Sith Lord thinks what he is doing is wrong? Hell no, he thinks he is doing something good that will help the galaxy. While from the viewpoint of the Jedi the Sith Lord is evil. So it all depends on the individual.
The Sith were created because a group of Jedi found some greater force powers. The other Jedi thought that having this power would corrupt and cast them out. These Outcasts created the Sith religion on Korriban (oh sorry, Morriband, stupid Disney) and began to expand on it. Now obviously they wanted revenge on the Jedi for casting them out. This lead to the creation of the Sith Empire. So in the core of it, the Jedi created the 'Dark Side' and the Sith.
Honestly I think that being a Sith allows for more clarity, since you unlock more of its power. But from a good/evil standpoint I think it depends on the point of view. Do you think a Sith Lord thinks what he is doing is wrong? Hell no, he thinks he is doing something good that will help the galaxy. While from the viewpoint of the Jedi the Sith Lord is evil. So it all depends on the individual.
Oh, why didn't I think about the Sith Code? The answer is already in it.
- SQUIRREL SHARES HIS OPINION IN THE CORNER -
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
Conclusion; Sith are evil because their code already states that. And if a Sith says they're not evil, they're probably lying or not Sith at all.
- FIN -
- SQUIRREL SHARES HIS OPINION IN THE CORNER -
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
That's truly the evilest thing I have ever seen.
Conclusion; Sith are evil because their code already states that. And if a Sith says they're not evil, they're probably lying or not Sith at all.
- FIN -
- Status