Wolf
Well-Known Member
[member="Samka Derith"]
That would be top stuff, I hope it's true.
That would be top stuff, I hope it's true.
Star Wars Roleplay: Chaos
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Can Kylo Ren be redeemed? [Spoilers 4 TFA!]
- Thread starter Farr Benisho
- Start date
Wolf
Well-Known Member
[member="Farr Benisho"]
JJ was just being realistic. How successful was a farmboy going to be in charge of the Jedi Order really?
JJ was just being realistic. How successful was a farmboy going to be in charge of the Jedi Order really?
Enyo Typhos
Control
[member="Triam Akovin"]
I agree completely regarding Vader. Saving his son by killing the Emperor doesn't mean he's suddenly atoned for all the crimes he committed. But then I have plenty of issues with how SW, both in 'Canon' and Legends, handles redemption. All too often is seems to boil down to killing someone worse than you and sometimes saying you're sorry about all the bad things you did.
I agree completely regarding Vader. Saving his son by killing the Emperor doesn't mean he's suddenly atoned for all the crimes he committed. But then I have plenty of issues with how SW, both in 'Canon' and Legends, handles redemption. All too often is seems to boil down to killing someone worse than you and sometimes saying you're sorry about all the bad things you did.
Farr Benisho
Member
[member="Enyo Typhos"] I certainly don't think it makes what he did suddenly ok. But I always turned into a mess of tears when he saves his son and dies doing so telling Luke that "you were right.." so I think the way it was handled worked IMO.
[member="Wolf"] Yeah but I mean, it just doesn't match up to what we've all seen in the EU I guess..Luke was my hero growing up watching the OT, we all wanted to be Luke and rebuild the temple etc. So it seems a shame to just swat our hands and say 'No! Luke sucks!' meh..
[member="Wolf"] Yeah but I mean, it just doesn't match up to what we've all seen in the EU I guess..Luke was my hero growing up watching the OT, we all wanted to be Luke and rebuild the temple etc. So it seems a shame to just swat our hands and say 'No! Luke sucks!' meh..
Visser Chernykh
No one makes the hero bleed.
[member="Wolf"]
There's a theory suggesting Abrams/Disney has Rey to be the savior as a way of pandering to modern trends towards female empowerment. Basically, he craps all over Luke, Han and Leia and casts them aside as practically useless. They're just too old and doddering to do anything. It's that trope that men are too dumb to do anything without a woman.
A female protagonist is fine, it's just how Abrams did it that annoys me.
Back to the redemption thing, yeah, Vader basically did some really horrible stuff and shouldn't have been forgiven just like that. Kylo is that way but just less so.
There's a theory suggesting Abrams/Disney has Rey to be the savior as a way of pandering to modern trends towards female empowerment. Basically, he craps all over Luke, Han and Leia and casts them aside as practically useless. They're just too old and doddering to do anything. It's that trope that men are too dumb to do anything without a woman.
A female protagonist is fine, it's just how Abrams did it that annoys me.
Back to the redemption thing, yeah, Vader basically did some really horrible stuff and shouldn't have been forgiven just like that. Kylo is that way but just less so.
Farr Benisho
Member
[member="Mael Ren"] Yeah ditto.
But I think Vader was more sympathetic and tbh I maybe shouldn't have used the word 'redemption', more like 'forgiven' but just by Luke. The galaxy would always view him as evil, it was Luke who showed him the light in his last moments and got him to return to being Anakin.
I can see Rey being that because Disney was rumored to be banning the Slave Leia stuff because some stupid father complained about it. I absolutely detest what Disney did to the Original Cast.
But I think Vader was more sympathetic and tbh I maybe shouldn't have used the word 'redemption', more like 'forgiven' but just by Luke. The galaxy would always view him as evil, it was Luke who showed him the light in his last moments and got him to return to being Anakin.
I can see Rey being that because Disney was rumored to be banning the Slave Leia stuff because some stupid father complained about it. I absolutely detest what Disney did to the Original Cast.
THE Wookie Jedi
Redemption is the last stage of the darkside of course Kylo should
Wolf
Well-Known Member
[member="Mael Ren"]
Rey being some magical character that can beat everyone and pick up the Force without any training, fly the Falcon, randomly know how to operate the controls on that cargo ship, has spoiled her character a bit in my mind, she should have lost her first fight with Kylo, who is apparently an experienced and trained Force user.
Luke was crap with them laser swords in IV, and got rekt in V, before becoming the badass he was born to be in the last episode. If they're going to copy the original trilogy in any way, that's how they should be copying it. I want to see Rey as a badass, but she needs to earn it, go through failures, trials, defeat, not just pop up as a badass from birth.
Her character can be redeemed, of course, if she were to simply experience defeat and weakness in the next film.
Rey being some magical character that can beat everyone and pick up the Force without any training, fly the Falcon, randomly know how to operate the controls on that cargo ship, has spoiled her character a bit in my mind, she should have lost her first fight with Kylo, who is apparently an experienced and trained Force user.
Luke was crap with them laser swords in IV, and got rekt in V, before becoming the badass he was born to be in the last episode. If they're going to copy the original trilogy in any way, that's how they should be copying it. I want to see Rey as a badass, but she needs to earn it, go through failures, trials, defeat, not just pop up as a badass from birth.
Her character can be redeemed, of course, if she were to simply experience defeat and weakness in the next film.
Z'Zharen
Apprentice
[member="Wolf"]
Vader's redemption was a selfish sacrifice as someone above mentioned. He only stepped in to kill Palpatine because his son's life was at risk...not all the countless billions Palpatine was responsible for killing. And in the end the only people who seem to forgive Vader are Luke and the ghost of his Jedi masters...so Vader wasn't even redeemable in that sense now that I think of it.
If Kylo for any reason decides to kill Snoke or assist in killing him it will most likely be a selfish reason not because "Its the right thing to do." I love that quote from Finn. Digress.
I felt it was too Mary Sue for Rey to be so skilled in almost everything she did, even if she simply has a very strong connection to the Force. To try to scavenge (pun intended) a way to make up for her Mary Sue-ness...I think they'll go the mind wipe route. She was trained as a Jedi by Luke's Order as early as possible. So some Force powers and lightsaber skills could have been taught to her as well as piloting and technical skills/plus she says off screen she's had plenty of practice in a starfighter simulator she repaired on Jakku while she was stranded there. Anyway, Kylo and his Ren's slaughter the Jedi and teenage Kylo or Luke save her from being killed, wipe her mind with the Force to "protect her" and drop her off on a BMFE planet to insure she at least lives a longer life.
Even though Kylo was "severely" wounded in their saber fight, I would think a 30 year old trained as a Jedi/Dark User for at least 15 years would be able to outmatch a 20 something Padawan whose dormant skills were slowly coming back but to are only to the extent with that of a ten year old baby Jedi...
I think this is turning into a Rey's unexplained abilities need to be redeemed thread haha.
Vader's redemption was a selfish sacrifice as someone above mentioned. He only stepped in to kill Palpatine because his son's life was at risk...not all the countless billions Palpatine was responsible for killing. And in the end the only people who seem to forgive Vader are Luke and the ghost of his Jedi masters...so Vader wasn't even redeemable in that sense now that I think of it.
If Kylo for any reason decides to kill Snoke or assist in killing him it will most likely be a selfish reason not because "Its the right thing to do." I love that quote from Finn. Digress.
I felt it was too Mary Sue for Rey to be so skilled in almost everything she did, even if she simply has a very strong connection to the Force. To try to scavenge (pun intended) a way to make up for her Mary Sue-ness...I think they'll go the mind wipe route. She was trained as a Jedi by Luke's Order as early as possible. So some Force powers and lightsaber skills could have been taught to her as well as piloting and technical skills/plus she says off screen she's had plenty of practice in a starfighter simulator she repaired on Jakku while she was stranded there. Anyway, Kylo and his Ren's slaughter the Jedi and teenage Kylo or Luke save her from being killed, wipe her mind with the Force to "protect her" and drop her off on a BMFE planet to insure she at least lives a longer life.
Even though Kylo was "severely" wounded in their saber fight, I would think a 30 year old trained as a Jedi/Dark User for at least 15 years would be able to outmatch a 20 something Padawan whose dormant skills were slowly coming back but to are only to the extent with that of a ten year old baby Jedi...
I think this is turning into a Rey's unexplained abilities need to be redeemed thread haha.
Farr Benisho
Member
@Z'Zharen
I always saw it more as his son Luke's cries for help finally got Anakin to 'snap out of it' per se. I always viewed the entire PT-OT as Anakin's fall to the dark side and his eventual return in the last moments of his life to the light. I mean we are told throughout the entire time that Luke knows who Vader is that "There's still good in him!"
I view it as Anakin Skywalker and Vader are sort of dual personalities in a way. Anakin Skywalker lay dormant, pushed to the back of Vader's mind, it's been explored how the reason he went after Ahsoka was because seeing her around was too painful and reminded him of what he'd lost.
I certainly hope what you said is the case for Rey, and now that J.J. is outta the picture we can build upon what was good about TFA and not just have a 'wink wink, nudge nudge. REMEMBER THAT FROM WHEN YOU WERE A KID!?' beat over our head.
I always saw it more as his son Luke's cries for help finally got Anakin to 'snap out of it' per se. I always viewed the entire PT-OT as Anakin's fall to the dark side and his eventual return in the last moments of his life to the light. I mean we are told throughout the entire time that Luke knows who Vader is that "There's still good in him!"
I view it as Anakin Skywalker and Vader are sort of dual personalities in a way. Anakin Skywalker lay dormant, pushed to the back of Vader's mind, it's been explored how the reason he went after Ahsoka was because seeing her around was too painful and reminded him of what he'd lost.
I certainly hope what you said is the case for Rey, and now that J.J. is outta the picture we can build upon what was good about TFA and not just have a 'wink wink, nudge nudge. REMEMBER THAT FROM WHEN YOU WERE A KID!?' beat over our head.
Farr Benisho
Member
@Wolf
See I'm holding out hope that once we are told more about Rey's mysterious past, that it'll just become an issue of TFA's events not making sense out of context. And when you binge watch this new trilogy it all clicks.
See I'm holding out hope that once we are told more about Rey's mysterious past, that it'll just become an issue of TFA's events not making sense out of context. And when you binge watch this new trilogy it all clicks.
Valiens Nantaris
Head Admin
No? Why would we?Kei Garnik said:
Son of Triam
[member="Z'Zharen"] everyone seems to not remember that Kylo got blasted in the karking stomach by Chewbaca's bowcaster. Did you not see the power on that thing? Hurling stormtrooper bodies around like flimsy rag dolls. Not to mention the "hollowed" feeling Kylo had in the aftermath of killing his father. The novelization (not that I read it, only heard about it through others) had him feeling that if he had killed his father he would have felt a release... but instead what he got, was a feeling of being weaker than he had ever been (implied because he had extinguished the light within him that Snoke had mentioned why he had been so valuable to him).
So just from that, it seem as if whatever light remains is dwindling to the point it may as well no longer be there. In other words, at current, he is irredeemable entrenched in the dark side.
Rey, while definitely a Mary Sue in quite a few ways, merely got lucky that she had caught Kylo at his weakest possible moment. Wounded physically, emotionally, and... force-ically? Nonetheless, I believe there would have been a very different result if he hadn't been wounded, and if he hadn't killed Solo yet.
So just from that, it seem as if whatever light remains is dwindling to the point it may as well no longer be there. In other words, at current, he is irredeemable entrenched in the dark side.
Rey, while definitely a Mary Sue in quite a few ways, merely got lucky that she had caught Kylo at his weakest possible moment. Wounded physically, emotionally, and... force-ically? Nonetheless, I believe there would have been a very different result if he hadn't been wounded, and if he hadn't killed Solo yet.
Dashka Soon
Buckle me swash
Do you want him? he acts like a petulant child with stupid tantrums.
you see that bit with the two troopers turning from the room he was wrecking i grantee those two were calling him a baby ant talking about kicking his ass later on.
no i don't want a guy i want to beat with a bar of soap in a sock on my team.
you see that bit with the two troopers turning from the room he was wrecking i grantee those two were calling him a baby ant talking about kicking his ass later on.
no i don't want a guy i want to beat with a bar of soap in a sock on my team.
L O S T
Could he be? Yes
If he does, would I suddenly no longer hate him? No
What he did was unforgivable
#Justice4Solo!
If he does, would I suddenly no longer hate him? No
What he did was unforgivable
#Justice4Solo!
Farr Benisho
Member
[member="Triam Akovin"]
I like Rey as a character, and I'm hoping that like I said, Rey's talents will make sense in context cause the pre-TFA books or whatever explain that she was a self-taught pilot so in THAT context it makes sense. And it's not too out there to assume she'd heard stories of Luke and Han and Leia's adventures. As for her force abilities I suppose it COULD be theorized and even explained that her connection to the Force is just that strong that The Force, as Maz put it, 'called' to her.
I stumbled across some interesting info on the idea of the Force being embedding in items, Quinlan Vos could have visions and whatnot I believe from touching like a lightsaber etc. So it's not out of the realm of canon.
As for beating Kylo, it makes sense what you said, he was emotionally wounded and that Bowcaster ain't no toy, the fact he could stand is astonishing..but he was beating his chest to either keep from passing out or get the pain going to drive him forward.
And the way she's using Anakin/Luke's old lightsaber shows that she's inexperienced, she's being sloppy etc.
Regardless what anyone says, the Midichlorians are not THE FORCE itself. So it's possible that she's so in tune with the Force that, as Qui-Gon Jinn was able to with Yoda, she's being guided by them.
I like Rey as a character, and I'm hoping that like I said, Rey's talents will make sense in context cause the pre-TFA books or whatever explain that she was a self-taught pilot so in THAT context it makes sense. And it's not too out there to assume she'd heard stories of Luke and Han and Leia's adventures. As for her force abilities I suppose it COULD be theorized and even explained that her connection to the Force is just that strong that The Force, as Maz put it, 'called' to her.
I stumbled across some interesting info on the idea of the Force being embedding in items, Quinlan Vos could have visions and whatnot I believe from touching like a lightsaber etc. So it's not out of the realm of canon.
As for beating Kylo, it makes sense what you said, he was emotionally wounded and that Bowcaster ain't no toy, the fact he could stand is astonishing..but he was beating his chest to either keep from passing out or get the pain going to drive him forward.
And the way she's using Anakin/Luke's old lightsaber shows that she's inexperienced, she's being sloppy etc.
Regardless what anyone says, the Midichlorians are not THE FORCE itself. So it's possible that she's so in tune with the Force that, as Qui-Gon Jinn was able to with Yoda, she's being guided by them.
Son of Triam
Don't be throwing around such a strong curse word! Who said anything about those?Farr Benisho said:
Delicate
Farr Benisho said:
May he rest in peace. My poor, sweet prince.
Farr Benisho
Member
Honestly, I don't see what all the butthurt is about with Midichlorians. A bit of research does the mind good rather than jumping on the hate-train.Triam Akovin said:
Son of Triam
[member="Farr Benisho"] It was intended more as a joke, but regardless, I'm not sure what prompted them to be brought up.
Doesn't change the fact they are basically a super-bug that gives the 'victim' special abilities :/
I preferred the purely mythical interpretation of the force as an energy connecting all living beings to the universe. Throwing in biology, is throwing a spanner in the works of what had been pretty well understood as something that remained mysterious and unique to the Star Wars universe. That's why it gets the hate it does, not because it was 'trendy' to hate on it.
But I digress, this conversation is in regards towards redemption, specifically Kylo's, so unless you've got some theory that midiclorians at the end of a force users life votes on whether or not they are redeemed based on the evil people they killed, I'm not sure they are entirely relevant here, lol
Doesn't change the fact they are basically a super-bug that gives the 'victim' special abilities :/
I preferred the purely mythical interpretation of the force as an energy connecting all living beings to the universe. Throwing in biology, is throwing a spanner in the works of what had been pretty well understood as something that remained mysterious and unique to the Star Wars universe. That's why it gets the hate it does, not because it was 'trendy' to hate on it.
But I digress, this conversation is in regards towards redemption, specifically Kylo's, so unless you've got some theory that midiclorians at the end of a force users life votes on whether or not they are redeemed based on the evil people they killed, I'm not sure they are entirely relevant here, lol