Confused About Ship Scale

[Nyxie]

So, before, I remember interceptors used to be 1.0, basic starfighters around 2.0, elites and heavies between 2.0 to 2.5, bombers at about 2.5-3.0, gunships at 4.0, so on and so forth.

My initial impression was that since there are twice as many numbers, each number was simply multiplied by two compared to newer submissions.

Yet when I look at the new scale chart, interceptors appear to be at about 1.5 (as opposed to 2.0), x-wing starfighters once 2.0 appear to be at 3.0 (as opposed to 4.0) and freighters are at about 5.5 (as opposed to 8.0-10.0). In fact, the "double" logic doesn't actually seem to come into play or even out until Frigates!

How can that be? The only explanation is that the two are not scaled evenly and that the new speed scale has a tapered curve as opposed to being linear with the other.

So how are we supposed to cross-reference speed on 1.0 and 2.0 guide subs??? Do we simply ignore the speed and try to find them on the chart? And if so, what about the faster ones and slower ones?

I hate to say it but this new system seems straight up flawed because there's a major inconsistency that didn't take long to find - whether it can be explained or not, because the two simply don't scale with each other and the only consistent table of reference is to simply use the old guide for the old submissions.

Best analogy?
This is the old scale. |
This is the new scale. )
Now put them together. They don't match.

So my question is this; how do we interpret it? I think I've already accidentally bumped up the speed of two subs by roughly .5 just by assuming the old system was just x2.

 

[Captain Larraq]

You're thinking too much.

Hard numbers are out the window.

Common sense, good judgement, and Factory Judge opinions now reign supreme.

 

[Serah Oricion]

You're thinking too much.

Hard numbers are out the window.

Common sense, good judgement, and Factory Judge opinions now reign supreme.

So... #tyrannyreigns?

 

[Nyxie]

I don't like the feel of that, man. It just feels like imminent disagreement after disagreement, report after report.

I'm super-uncomfortable about this. It's never just "common sense" because that poodoo isn't all that common. :/

I don't know. I'm not digging this. I think I'm going to make a graph explaining the tapered curve.
*is good at graphs, does them for mapping guitar output on new pot/pup wirings*

 

[Captain Larraq]

I stick to my 2x scale as far as speeds go.

1-3 Interceptor
3-7 Starfighter
6-8 30m to 80m range
8-10 Corvette
10-12 Frigate
12-14 Light Cruiser
14-16 Heavy Cruiser
16-18 Star Destroyer
18-20 Anything over 1,800m


Those are not hard limitations, they are 'the norm'. There is a lot of wiggle room for specialized ships now. Ships can specialize in agility or speed beyond the typical for their size. Likewise, unique ships have more wiggle room to shine and are not held back by the old restrictions.

If people are slipping by with ships that are far faster than is appropriate, then there is a judge that is screwing up. Likewise, you're correct. While the new system gives authors much more room to be creative, it promotes arguments between submitter and reviewer when 'unclear guidelines' are enforced or when someone on either end goes overboard.


Unfortunatly, nobody wants to make a slow ship, and nobody wants to accidently make a ship that's too fast. Ships on the extreme low and high ends are being shunted towards the middle and you're ending up with everything from Corvettes to Star Destroyers averaging out in the 10-14 range. While ships on the small end (small Corvettes, starfighters, freighters) are averaging out being... a little faster than they should be.

 

[Nyxie]

[member="Captain Larraq"]
You don't see the problem with that?! That a 3,000 meter command ship is as fast if not marginally faster than your LSD's???

Staff! Y u do dis! U no halpng!

They tried to make everything stupid-easy for the new guys but have completely wrecked any equality they now have with the oldfarts. I'm not pleased. I'm pissed. This is EXPLOIT CITY. I don't even - I don't know how else to put it. The two scales don't match up, so there's no possible way for them to co-exist save to combine them....

...Which I am currently doing on GIMP as we speak. Literally just both the 1 to 10 and 0 to 20 scales but on the same image with the curves also graphed adjacently using a graph creating software.

In their current state, they don't mathematically sync, there's nothing anybody can say that will change that simple fact or life.

 

[Captain Larraq]

I know. I'm just not pissed about it. Then again, I don't rely on speed with what I do. Slower ships in group A, faster ships in group B. Anything faster than I need them to be, match speed with X.

*shrug*

I can see how its a pain in the butt for starfighter pilots, where the difference between speed 1 and 3 is their life. On the new system, starfighters live in speed 1-6, with a few larger ships making it to speed 6-8.

In the capital ship world, new ships averaging out between speed 10 and 14 is... an annoyance. But little more.

That 1,600m ship with speed 14 or the 3km ship with speed 18 may be pretty darn broken in small scale combat, but in true 'fleeting' it's not a game-changer. Likewise, the average range of weaponry being used, hyperspace travel and interdiction, and other factors mean that it's not really a huge issue just yet. And until it becomes one in a roleplay, you'll be hard pressed to get a more in-depth guide or more focused judging.

 

[Nyxie]

I can see how its a pain in the butt for starfighter pilots, where the difference between speed 1 and 3 is their life. On the new system, starfighters live in speed 1-6, with a few larger ships making it to speed 6-8.

This. All of this. ^

[member="Captain Larraq"], just look at these graphs comparing all the scales. Don't look at the last until you've inspected the first three individually.

These are all of the speed scales we've used / are using.

Here is the original scale from SSG 2.0:

Spoiler

Here is the new scale from Factory 2.0:

Spoiler

Here is what your interpretation (2x) of the old scale *should* look like on the new scale:

Spoiler

Now here is what they ACTUALLY look like:

Spoiler

That entire scale should be orange (part-orange in every class).

There is clearly not, proving just how different the old and new scale are, and proving how significant the difference is - especially on the lower scale where - as you said - half a point can mean life or death.

So I wanna know who thought this was a good idea and how we make sure it doesn't turn into a bad idea, because I just see imminent fussing over who has the faster what on the horizon, and I don't want to be it's first victim.

I haven't even begun making a comparative and fair chart because there's just no way to make /everything/ fairly even due to that non-linear curve in the 0-50% margin.

 

[Onrai]

Long post with facts

And this is why I support a 1-10 scale with decimals.

 

[Captain Larraq]

Down girl!


The problem is not in the speed scale or the chart itself. It is how it is being interpreted and how Judges are either overlooking it or not enforcing it.

Spoiler

1/0.5- Small, Lightly armed Interceptor
2/1- Average Interceptor
3/1.5- Large, Heavily armed Interceptor / Small, Lightly armed Starfighter
4/2- Average Starfighter
5/2.5- Large, Heavily armed Starfighter
6/3- Large, Heavily armed Starfighter / Ships between 30m and 80m
7/3.5- Small, Lightly armed Corvette / Heavily Armed Ships between 30m and 80m
8/4- Average Corvette
9/4.5- Large, Heavily armed Corvette / Small, Lightly armed Frigate
10/5- Average Frigate
11/5.5- Large, Heavily armed Frigate
12/6- Large, Heavily armed Frigate / Small, Lightly armed Cruiser
13/6.5- Small, Lightly armed Cruiser
14/7- Average Cruiser
15/7.5- Large, Heavily armed Cruiser / Small, Lightly armed Star Destroyer
16/8- Average Star Destroyer
17/8.5- Average Star Destroyer
18/9- Large, Heavily armed Star Destroyer / Command Ship
19/9.5- Heavily armed Command Ship / 'Lighter' 3km+ Ship
20/10- Average Space Station / Large, Heavily armed 3km+ Ship

However, several ship categories were shoved out the window. Likewise, THE OLD GUIDE IS GONE. Balanced, Assault, and Support ship classifications no longer apply to the Starship Factory. Light Star Destroyers are no longer in their own category. Cruisers and Heavy Cruisers are also merged together. 50-100m long ships are now considered Corvettes as well as 100-200m ships. 400-500m ships now are grouped with Frigates as well. Oh, and Interceptors, Starfighters, Gunships, Dropships, exc are GONE! Now it's simply 'Starfighters'.

The only ships with their own classification are Carriers, Flagships, and (rightly so) Space Stations.

You see a Judge trying to use the old guide as justification for requested edits? Remind them that they are doing their job wrong.

I've seen... at least one occasion where a Judge tried to make the argument that only Support Ships can have Stealth Technology. I was torn between the desire to choke or laugh at the Judge in question. Not only are 'Support Ships' no longer a part of the accepted starship guide, but there are no written rules restricting Stealth Technology to 'lightly armed ships'.

Anyway... If you want something a little more accurate, here is the baseline that most ships SHOULD be held to. Ship classifications are thrown out the window and only size is taken into consideration. From here, it's all up to good judgement. A ship comes through the Factory and you look at it and go "Ok... For its size, how heavily armored is it? How rare/unique is it? How powerful is the Reactor? How much power is getting sent to shields and weapons?" And from there, you can justify sliding it up or down the speed chart.

Spoiler

1/0.5- 5m - 12m
2/1- 5m - 18m
3/1.5- 5m - 18m
4/2- 8m - 24m
5/2.5- 12m - 50m
6/3- 20m - 80m
7/3.5- 50m - 120m
8/4- 50m - 250m
9/4.5- 100m - 250m
10/5- 150m - 500m
11/5.5- 200m - 500m
12/6- 300m - 900m
13/6.5- 400m - 980m
14/7- 700m - 1,000m
15/7.5- 700m - 1,200m
16/8- 900m - 1,400m + Space Stations
17/8.5- 1,000m - 2,000m + Space Stations
18/9- 1,400m - 3,000m + Space Stations
19/9.5- 3,000m - 5,000m + Space Stations
20/10- 3,000m - 5,000m + Space Stations

The problem you're having is not with the guide, it is with the people Judging submissions.

 

[Captain Larraq]

Also. There is an inherent problem in place here.

The speed scale was drastically changed at the same time that overall acceptable ship length was more than doubled.

Arguably, the current chart should go up to 25. With ships between the range of 2km and 5km being spread out between 18 and 25.

I mean... just look at the speed chart. Ships from 1 meter to 1,000 meters are spread out from speed 1 to speed 14-17.

Ships from 1km to 5km are squeezed into speeds 14 through 20. Thats... just not enough space to accurately scale their speed.

Starfighters (be they Interceptors, Gunships, whatever) have speed 1 through 8 to work with. The exact speed boils down to size, armament, and specializations. But they have, on average, 6-8 different speed slots to work themselves into.

With the vast size differences between these ships and the massive number of variables that need to be taken into consideration with each of these monsters... yeah. 3km+ ships need their own spot on the chart.

1-7 for Starfighters
6-10 for ships in that 30m to 80m range that don't quite fit easily in the guide...
6-12 for Corvettes
8-14 for Frigates
10-18 for Cruisers (and light Carriers)
16-20 for Destroyers (1km to 2km) (and 'average' Carriers)
20-25 for Flagships (honestly, everything over 2km belongs in this category)

 

[Raziel]

I stick to my 2x scale as far as speeds go.

1-3 Interceptor
3-7 Starfighter
6-8 30m to 80m range
8-10 Corvette
10-12 Frigate
12-14 Light Cruiser
14-16 Heavy Cruiser
16-18 Star Destroyer
18-20 Anything over 1,800m


Those are not hard limitations, they are 'the norm'. There is a lot of wiggle room for specialized ships now. Ships can specialize in agility or speed beyond the typical for their size. Likewise, unique ships have more wiggle room to shine and are not held back by the old restrictions.

This man gets a cookie.

The Starfighter is supposed to be 2-4 in my chart. I'd probably shift your lower limits down a little, but only in exchange for trade-offs. It is supposed to be more flexible in this system, so justify what you do with your ships. Might get some inconsistencies, but they can certainly be ironed out in roleplay as long as people follow Wheaton's Law

 

[Nyxie]

That's really good, solid information and all, but it barely aides the problem that most people aren't going to look through all that and realize "okay, so these are more or less even."

They're going to use the same derp logic I started off using before reflecting upon all of this, and instantly assume "oh, your pre-guide interceptor is speed 1.2 (for example) so it must be speed 2.4 now, meaning my speed 1.5 new-factory interceptor must be totes mcgoats faster." even though they're virtually the same poodoo. And then all hell would break loose because I am going to flip out, because that's just not accurate.

Like I said, you can take it how you want, but consolidation and higher upper-end or not, the early band is simply and factually not mathematically consistent.

I could easily defer everyone to your size and speed comparison post here, [member="Captain Larraq"], but doesn't that just over-complicate a system that was designed to be easier?

It all just seems counterproductive to me.

Also, I need to go request an edit for speed change on two of my new subs now. >_>

[member="Raziel"]​

Edit: What I'm trying to say is that the new stuff, as a standalone, is fine. It's the old stuff that doesn't mesh with it.

 

[Nyxie]

Just throwing random ideas out there, but...

...what if...

...we were all given an option by Staff to have the speed/mob of our old ships edited to that new-scale standard...

...without having to go through the tedium of updating the entire submission to the new template?



That would save some people this whole deal of trouble trying to make old and new mesh together.

 

[Captain Larraq]

That's really good, solid information and all, but it barely aides the problem that most people aren't going to look through all that and realize "okay, so these are more or less even."

They're going to use the same derp logic I started off using before reflecting upon all of this, and instantly assume "oh, your pre-guide interceptor is speed 1.2 (for example) so it must be speed 2.4 now, meaning my speed 1.5 new-factory interceptor must be totes mcgoats faster." even though they're virtually the same poodoo. And then all hell will break loose because I am going to flip out, because that's just not accurate.

Like I said, you can take it how you want, but consolidation and higher upper-end or not, the early band is simply and factually not mathematically consistent.

I could easily defer everyone to your size and speed comparison post here, [member="Captain Larraq"], but doesn't that just over-complicate a system that was designed to be easier?

It all just seems counterproductive to me.

Also, I need to go request an edit for speed change on one of my new subs now. >_>

[member="Raziel"]​

Personally, I think that the 1.2 speed starfighter on the old scale would be 2.4 on the new scale and that a new-scale 1.5 speed starfighter would be faster.

However, there is no official ruling on how 2.0 guide starships translate to the new 3.0 guidelines.

It's an issue that noone wants to deal with.

Either the 3.0 guide is simple a x2 modifier to the 2.0 speed chart (with 0.5 being the fastest speed on the old 1-10 scale)... which means that the current guide needs to be expanded to cover speeds 1-25...

Or the 3.0 guide is completely separate from the old guide and there simply is no direct translation... Meaning that...

Every.

Single.

Starship.

From the old guide needs to be modified to fit on the new speed template.


*shrug*

Personally, I think that option A is easier on everyone. All it requires is an official statement on the matter.

 

[Nyxie]

Personally, I think that the 1.2 speed starfighter on the old scale would be 2.4 on the new scale and that a new-scale 1.5 speed starfighter would be faster.

So it's like you said, at the mercy of the judgement of the reviewing factory member. :/

Look to *this post*, I rather like and will campaign for this idea.

 

[Naast'ika Laaran]

So it's like you said, at the mercy of the judgement of the reviewing factory member. :/

Look to *this post*, I rather like and will campaign for this idea.

You ALWAYS have the option of making small edit requests like this for your ships. However, you run a risk each time. The judge responsible for the edits may disagree with the requested edit and nerf it a bit, giving you less than you were hoping for. The other and more serious risk, is when you put something in the spotlight that a judge then notices... and takes issues with. Which can result in a submission being dragged out for edits or denied due to brokenness.

*shrug*

Play with your toys as you see fit.

Discarded Lego's shall meet their fate at the hands of Vacuum.

 

[Naast'ika Laaran]

Also.

I had a moment of Irony.

How awesome would it be if this Character got made into a Starship Factory Judge at some point?

XD

 

[Nyxie]

I was told nothing approved would be nerfed unless someone reported it or an RPJ overseeing a thread ordered it. It's just the tedium of having to rewrite an entire submission to bring it up to date with current templates that kills me. Imagine me doing that for some thirty-something submissions? Yeah - no.

 

[Naast'ika Laaran]

You don't have to re-do an entire submission.

Just... list the speed change in the Modification Request.

Have you looked at the starship modification thread lately? People request minor changes all the time.