Feedback Factions (And How to Kill Them)

[Valiens Nantaris]

Well, this thread has been a whole thing.

Specific proposals should be started as new threads. We read them all, even if we don't reply.

Dealing with the issue of killing factions if pretty much an impossible situation. Some will want it, but like with a map wipe, not everyone and perhaps not a majority.

Invasions have come a long way with the victory rules, but there will always be the human OOC element. And frankly, some people want to win no matter what, even for a fictional hex on a fictional board. That's fine, but finding a balance between suiting the 'gamers', 'RPers' and everyone who is both, neither or either is a difficult matter.

Finding a solution is going to take time, and might even involve trials through limited uses like flashpoints or mini events. There might not be a solution which is easily found, but we'll do what we can.

So for now, continue discussing, put up proposals and we'll try and find a way forward.

 

[Zark San Tekka]

Melia Siari

If you cannot keep up with the pace of invasions being set against you or the number of factions who have declared their IC intention to fight, maybe its time to consider going minor. That was the advice the GA was given, that was the advice the UCM was given, that was the advice the Jen'ari Empire was given. When the First Order complained repeatedly about uneven ally lists we pointed out that successful IC diplomacy is a map tactic too. I'm not sure why TSE feels things should suddenly be so different now that they're on the back foot. I'm sure you would love some time off in between invasions, as we all know that's faction team code for 'can you let us dominion some hexes so all of your tactical gains disappear please'.

No one worth listening to is saying 'TSE must be deleted forever from the map game', but TSE does not have any right to exist as the bloated superpower it is for as long as it wants. This assumption that the NIO invasions will last until the last Sith writer has left Chaos and the last hex is in their hands is pretty baseless. They haven't even reached your capital yet and you're already screaming slow down slow down. It shows how remarkably ill suited the Sith writers are to conflict when they aren't pretty sure they can win.

If your problem really is with 'OOC metagaming' like backroom staff discussions, then we really do have a problem on our hands and it probably won't go away until we ban discord. I appreciate the praise of my past achievements, but after not being able to find a single palatable invasion partner after the ORC/TSE conflict and ultimately deciding to leave the site you can probably imagine my thoughts on how realistic your vision of a chill yet competitive invasion atmosphere is. The sad truth is those invasions were only as relaxed as they were because neither faction posed a serious threat to the others' territory. OPA invasions also had a reputation for being as relaxed as they were because I would take responsibility for everything whenever the opposing staff team complained about pointless shit and fall on my sword to the idiotic drama. I couldn't do that anymore.

 

[Fatty]

Zark San Tekka I am going to interject briefly by saying I didn't get the impression from her that she was complaining, and so far all the invasions I've seen have been positive and courteous. Please correct me if I am wrong, but in my personal experience, no one has really been upset with the current set of invasions against TSE. I am happy to be corrected.

 

[Zark San Tekka]

Fatty

That courtesy only extends to public OOC threads and discord channels because no one wants to lose the drama vote. If you think the NIO and TSE get along with each other I have a bridge to sell you.

 

[Melia Siari]

Zark San Tekka
Alright, I suppose since you want to double down, I'll bite.

I don't know where you're getting the idea that anyone, anyone, is suggesting that invasions slow down. The only thing that is being argued against is a mechanic to force a faction to accept the terms of finality, that's literally the entire basis of this discussion. If that isn't what you're supporting, I don't know what point you're trying to drive home is. The Sith Empire is keeping up just fine, we've won one of the 4 invasions, we're currently in 2 of them, and we lost 1 of them. The Sith Empire isn't what the old Galactic Alliance was when it was unable to get threads off the ground - I can start a faction thread tomorrow and get 100 posts in a day or two - we're just focusing on invasions because we want to engage the people who want to write with us wholeheartedly.

It's incredibly telling that you're still missing the point.

OOC talk, metagaming, whatever it is you want to call it isn't the root problem, it is a symptom of the greater problem, a draconic problem from "old timers" who are out of touch with people who aren't from super old and archaic forums and don't see things as black and white, live or die, start or end.

You see a faction invading another faction as a means to erase a faction from the map.

I see a faction invading another faction as an opportunity for that latter faction to be broken down and emerge as something new.

You see a large faction as something that needs to be gone.

I see a faction that needs to reinvent itself.

The difference between the old Galactic Alliance and the Sith Empire is that the old Galactic Alliance couldn't bring itself to finish its dominions when it wasn't being invaded, it couldn't bring itself to bring representation to an invasion, it couldn't bring itself to take the steps necessary to engage its members. And then, when the writing was already on the wall, the plug got pulled and we got Endgame. I won't mince words here, the faction had no hope for turning itself around.

The Sith Empire, conversely, can finish its dominions outside of war times, it can do its 70 and 100 post faction threads over the course of 3 days, it can do its 100 post skirmish/public threads, and it can handle the 4 invasions we've embroiled ourselves in. I took the reigns less than 30 days ago and I already see options for the Sith Empire to grow and change to suit whatever outcome these invasions bring, and have been doing so since after the first invasion. I don't know where you saw in my entire post of how much I have enjoyed, and how much the Sith Empire, has enjoyed its invasions that I wanted it to slow down, but I would suggest that you stop looking for things I haven't said and points that aren't there and focus on what I am telling you.

If a faction is active, if it has a base of writers that have plans to continue being active, then they have every right to do what the rules say they can do and restructure themselves into a new identity and continue writing together as they did before. I suggest you re-read my post (the one just before this one, it's on the same page as your reply, I'm sure you've seen it considering the skimming you've done).

Particularly this:

Wait, let me zoom in on it for you:

Is this naive hope for some "chill and competitive" writing because you think someone else will take advantage of that?

Maybe, but I also don't really care. I'll just take advantage of their convictions against our faction for newer storylines, that's my responsibility as a faction owner - to do what is best for my members, not to take ourselves off the map because someone thinks that after a couple invasions we've got to go.

And to be perfectly clear, the issue is people turning other people into their enemies.

If you still think I am asking people to slow down on invasion, or you still think I think "ooc metagaming" is the issue, then reach out to me via PM or discord (though, based on your other posts, I don't suspect you use it anymore), because I would be glad to explain it in a way that isn't long-winded rants that turn into each of us shouting at each other and accomplishing nothing.

At the end of the day, I think a faction should be able to decide when it goes (or I suppose until it fails to succeed an activity check and gets recalled, or loses its hexes, whatever) and continue to be able to make use of the tools they have available to maintain a presence. If the New Imperial Order takes Bastion and the Sith Empire moves down to the Sith Worlds or the Voss or some other world and engages in an internal storyline replacing its government and its leaders with new people in charge and alter the course of the faction, they should be allowed to do so. They shouldn't get pulled out of the map because their capital goes, especially not if the faction in question likes the idea of doing this whole thing in the first place.

 

[Dak]

The only thing that is being argued against is a force kill switch to get a faction off the map, that's literally the entire basis of this discussion.

I, uh, just want to chime in and say that this was definitely not the intended basis of the discussion. I was just arguing that it should be easier for major factions to die / lose territory.

 

[Melia Siari]

Dak
Apologies, that was a poorly phrased statement.

What I meant to say is The only thing that is being argued against is a mechanic to force a faction to accept the terms of finality.

If that wasn't the goal of this discussion, to introduce a change in mechanics behind the invasion/dominion/etc system which removes a faction from the map without it going inactive, then I apologize for misunderstanding. I personally think the purpose of this discussion is moot, considering the other two suggestions (mergers, willful ceding of territory, etc) address your concerns about factions growing stagnant and incentivizing a faction to do things itself in ways that invigorate member response.

Edit: I've edited my post so someone reading doesn't have to read our following messages to understand the phrasing.

 

[Zark San Tekka]

Melia Siari

I can get a longer post up after work going over things, but in light of some DMs I received after last round it seems people felt I was expressing hostility towards TSE as a group. The point was made that I may not be remembering certain threads as fondly as I used to, and anyway that wasn't meant as an indictment of TSE culture, just the state I feel the community has gotten to.

To also clarify, I do not support the notion of a faction kill switch either. What I took issue with was your assertion that the only possible motivation for a grueling invasion pace is personal animosity towards the other faction or a desire to see them removed from the game. This is why I suggested increasing the pace of conquered space, not so that certain factions would cease to exist if they don't want to but so that their attackers can feel like they are making meaningful territorial gains without both sides being pushed to exhaustion.

 

[Dak]

Melia Siari

I think some things were misunderstood, but that's fine. To clarify, I just wanted to talk about some ways to make the map more fluid and make it easier for factions to rise/fall. The main concern I wanted to address is that it's easy to grow, but ridiculously hard to shrink (willing or otherwise). If it were easier to lose territory/there were alternative ways, we could have more decent war narratives & shifting borders without so many OOC conflicts surrounding them.

I absolutely do not want a kill switch or board mechanic to outright delete a faction. The merge/ceding suggestions are fantastic and the kind of things I was hoping to see come from this.

 

[Melia Siari]

Zark San Tekka
I see what you're saying, and I can see your perspective based on reading things through a lens with what you've said in retrospect, but my intention was to label that not treating other writers properly is the problem, it leads to all of those other issues, such as trying to burn out other writers, and that trying to burn people out and the animosity there is only a symptom of that behavior.

I don't mean "be nice to each other", I mean writers should communicate with each other when they feel someone has done or said something to/about them that slights them, that writers should be willing to compromise on their stories or be willing to accept that there are many other possible things that can happen over the course of a storyline. But arguing about this makes me feel like a public speaker, and being a not very nice person I feel ill-suited for that.

I've taken a proactive role in changing the Sith Empire's culture, it's why I keep bringing it up as an example, and our plans if we lose Bastion as an example, because it's an example of how a faction can use loss or failure as a way to grow into something else. And sure, I don't think every faction will always see the best way to do this, and sure, maybe I'm just being naive, or maybe I'm the unicorn or the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, or maybe I'm super pretentious and full of myself to think I can accomplish this. Maybe the Sith Empire won't survive losing Bastion (in the hypothetical that we do), and that's fine.

I just think factions should first look to how they can change and use their circumstances to better themselves, and that writers should stop trying to influence how people write their stories by reshaping the rules.

 

[Zark San Tekka]

Melia Siari

That's fair enough and for what it's worth that something I struggle with too. How much of this problem is human nature? Will even the cleverest rules help the situation or will people always find a way to exploit the system?

You may also have a point about rule changes for the sake of it. I'm sure there is a lot of OOC going on behind these discussions that I'm no longer privy to, and there have been some not so thinly veiled accusations of stuff like staff faction in this thread alone.

But we act like the rules were always this way and they weren't. Before hex sizes shrunk you COULD invade faster than the enemy could expand. But since that change also came with reduced dominion requirements everyone agreed it was egalitarian and a Good Change. Maybe I'm seeing connections where there aren't any, but I don't think it's a coincidence that every major war after has been a burnout war.

 

[Melia Siari]

Zark San Tekka

I'm probably not phrasing my disagreement well enough, I was approaching this discussion under the presumption of there being some system added in place that would push a faction off of the map after some invasion-based result (and I don't mean losing all of its hexes, I just mean like, X lost their capital so they go minor or get recalled or some other forced thing that robs them of their agency).

Expanding the scope of the rules we have in reaction to things, like allowing more than a single hex to be taken in an invasion or what-have-you, is a perfectly amenable option posited by Ronan Vizsla in another suggestion (I assume as a response to this, but I could be wrong), and while I was concerned about smaller factions (particularly factions without a hype train and a small writer base), a focused suggestion centered around just that, rather than the nebulous "get rid of factions faster" discussion, which lead (from what I see) most people in this thread to take away different intents behind it, was much easier to get behind than a general discussion where clear stances aren't taken.

 

[Zark San Tekka]

Melia Siari

Like I said I was going to make another effort post after work but I feel like we've reached if not a better place here than a place of more understanding where we are coming from.

My posts regarding the NIO/TSE conflict were made after waking up and probably not coherent as they could have been. As I said if people saw personal animosity in them that wasnt my intent. It's entirely possible I was conflating drama elsewhere, and I could only speak authoritatively on the state of things between both faction staffs when I left, ie right around when you first took over. From my perspective those OOC relations were not good, but it's entirely possible that has improved since then. I don't know what I don't know, and it was maybe disingenuous of me to jump to some of the conclusions I did about ulterior motives.

 

[Tathra Khaeus]

I just want to point out that the Bryn & SJO both pose a threat to each others influence clouds but non-stop communication has mads this a Drama-Free invasion.

Kyra Perl and her staff team and mine have worked together to do so.

Collaboration is the key. Its possible.

 

[Imperial Warlord Zovesa]

I'll keep this short:

1. Formalize Civil War Events for Factions

2. More Splinter Groups and Remnant Factions during Major Faction Collapses (IRL history when empires collapse it is a slow and bloody death, with lots of RP potential)

3. Formalize "End-of-Life" rules for Major Factions going down hill

4.