Factory Rule discussion

[Qae Shena]

@[member="Jay Scott Clark"]

Actually, there's something you should be made aware of. From the Technology Creation Template:

*Just as armaments and vehicles, droids must be approved as a model and design before they can be utilized within and/or as a profile character. In addition, droid profiles, whether as a main character or companion character, may still be submitted as their own profile or within The profile of The character they support, whichever The case may be

So, sure, custom droids need approval, but canon stuff, no.

 

[Valik]

The main issue with an AI lies with the I, intelligence. Pretty much every canon rendering we have as droids labels them as well, pretty stupid. There are exceptions of course, with HK-47, C-3PO, R2-D2, etc, but by and large Droids are stupid in SW. The reason they're used is generally to out-number(produce) and out-gun opponents, but we have been very, very few instances in canon of when a droid can think at the level, let alone outsmart, a sentient in any form. In truth HK-47 is the only droid I can think off off-hand that could tactically function at a sentient-level, and he was a one of a-kind-droid made by a mary-sue'd up Sith Lord(at the time anyways).

The issues with an AI that isn't linked to a droid, or droid-brain, is that not only does it have to be intelligent enough to interact with it's system, it has to interact with several different operating systems under several different systems with great efficiency to resemble anything like what we see in other science fiction media. The type of intelligence and RAM required to serve as an AI capable of hacking multiple systems while hopping from one place to another, or even merely taking care of daily affairs while doing such doesn't match the average intelligence of a sentient, it surpasses it, which contradicts everything canon shows us about non-biological intelligences.

Quite simply, if you want to RP Star Wars, you don't want to RP AI's, because after countless movies, TV shows, books, video games, and comics with tons of conflicting canon are still unified in that the average droid is an idiot.

 

[Tefka]

Droids are hardware ran by software, and are generally meant to be mass produced commercially.

A.I.'s are software, raw programs, codes stored on hardware.

Though there is correlation between the two, it is very minimal.

Also: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/BRT_supercomputer This was created in 200 BBY. It was the size of an average room, and it controlled a planet. 50 or so years ago, something equivalent to 1/1,000 of your Iphone's processing power was also the size of an average room.

The only argument to be had here is "it isn't Star Wars," which right, we didn't see Cortana in the movies. We didn't see an A.I. in the movies.

 

[Tefka]

@[member="Jaxton Ravos"], I have moved your post from the Banned Item List to this thread.

It is post #12.

 

[Tefka]

I have repurposed the thread for all Factory-related Rules discussion.

 

[Eddie]

Just wanna say my point: the Vyperion Assassin droids are not idiots, but at the same time, they have a droid brain... this is cause their brains are somewhat close to an AI in the fact that it could upgrade itself mentally from remembering everything that happened to it, INCLUDING DEATH

In fact, most droids have memory wipes, so far no Vyperion Droid has rebelled besides Eddie xD

 

[Ashin Varanin]

After a good bit of time in the Factory, I'm starting to believe that it's mostly served its purpose. All the major factions are armed, it's thoroughly possible to arm new factions with publicly available stuff -- like, at the faction level, there's almost no more need for it. I love helping people design Just The Right Ship, but there does need to be less focus on the engineering and stats of it. The more micro it gets, the more the work piles up and the more ams-racey it gets -- and that means more complaints and arguably less fun. "Your faction can't have that!" "Well, your faction can't have THAT!" Tale as old as time.

If you can find a way to cut that off at the knees, you'll save us all some grief.

 

[Qae Shena]

You know what'd be really awesome?

If we designed a baseline thing. Like, hey, standard carrier at x size, with x guns and x fighters. Everyone picks their own unique image, maybe a unique feature to add on from a list, pick up an added weakness to trade off if they do.

Zero work.

Added Justification:
- No arms race because all factions have access to equal technology.
- Requests can be made for faction-unique tech (say the CIS wants to use their long-range turbolasers); they get added to the list, 'priced' by RPJs for weaknesses, and can be added with equivalents.
- Less work because it's just a quick double-check and bam, ship approved.
- New Major Factions do not have to submit 9-20 brand-new entries.
- Still the capacity for uniqueness, but without the tedium of ship design surrounding it.
- Space battles become less of a dogpile of 'who has better tech' and, given that it's all the same, it becomes a chess match, relying on superior strategy and good writing skills, instead of just GMing.

@[member="Ashin Varanin"] @[member="Tefka"]

 

[Sargon Vynea]

If I may throw my two cents in? Most droids which had achieved a 'sentience' type AI intelligence weren't produced that way they simply through experience slowly came about. Wipe their memories as was often done on owner transfer or over time and bam they are back to step one. As for tiny powerful processors they simply don't exist in this universe. If it did we wouldn't have 200 crewmen each using an anti-fighter laser they'd have AI controlled each which could communicate targets and prolly be a heck of a lot of more deadly. Instead each had to be manned... now you can ask well is this just a lack of vision and realization of small and powerful tech would become? maybe but is i star wars to have these powerful small computing chips... nope.... if this makes no sense all good its 4 am.... if its not welcome.... well its 4 am.... i won't remember posting it anyway

 

[Jsc]

@[member="Jay Scott Clark"]

Actually, there's something you should be made aware of. From the Technology Creation Template:

*Just as armaments and vehicles, droids must be approved as a model and design before they can be utilized within and/or as a profile character. In addition, droid profiles, whether as a main character or companion character, may still be submitted as their own profile or within The profile of The character they support, whichever The case may be

So, sure, custom droids need approval, but canon stuff, no.

Lol. From the Technology Creation Template. Now the Staff is hiding rules from us? You guys. So cheeky.

...But no. I get it. Some stuff is overpowered in application. And, rather than wait until someone complains and files a compliant during Roleplay, you want to nip it in the butt and just kill it preemptively. I get that. Totally do. But there is a strong difference when an RPJ stops being a 'Mediator' and starts becoming 'The Law'.

The rules won't stop ignorance. The rules won't stop abuse. They can only define it.

 

[Qae Shena]

@[member="Jay Scott Clark"] - it's been there since before I was a member; so, when you were on staff, it was in there. That's a guarantee.

Also, to some degree, RPJs are kind of the enforcers of the law, honestly. The Factory is the place in which they patrol and do their job.

 

[Jsc]

Lol. Well. Let's try to keep all the rules in one place, yeah. No biggie. Spreading out like that? Haha. Easy to get confused. You'll figure it out.

And yes. The RPJ enforce. But they are also allowed to 'interpret'. They are allowed to understand. Because things change. Rules come and go. People remain. Love the people man. And let the rules serve them.

Evolution happens. Maybe one day we won't be afraid of A.I.'s anymore. Maybe one day everyone can have nice things. I'm not afraid of toys. I'm just sad when people abuse them.

 

[Jorus Merrill]

Was gonna post this in the other thread, realized I was a derp.

It may surprise some, but I don't have a problem with unrestricted access to lightsabre-resistant materials. A Sith wants to use an alchemical sword instead of a lightsabre? No balance problems. A non-Force-user wants to go head-to-head with a Forcer of equivalent experience and wants some beskar armor? No balance problems -- every armor has gaps, every non-Forcer can still get lightning'ed. Someone wants to throw on some cortosis-weave Jensaarai armor? Pure canon, I don't care. Now, you start mass-producing these things and there's problems (though I still think the Empire could justifiably mass-produce basic alchemical swords). Frankly, something like a beskad or a phrik warclub or a cortosis-weave blade often doesn't require a tech sub at all, and shouldn't.

I'll summarize: I suggest that we throw the doors open to lightsabre-resistant materials, except in cases of mass production.

 

[Tefka]

Mass production is what we're preventing.

I will tell you though, each "rare" item will likely have it's own set of restrictions on a case by case basis. My current idea for it, based off notes from the current Staff team, is "Drop in the list, bro. See what you wanna earn that's rare. Perform the objectives required to achieve this rare item. Go perform them. Come back, and make your submission with that rare item, and link all your completed objectives.

Then, we approve it."

 

[Jorus Merrill]

I've seen that approach work at other boards, and I like it just as much as I like doors-wide-open. Both give fair and even chances for everyone across the board (so to speak). Objectives would work really, really well for things like beskar.

 

[Lief]

You know what'd be really awesome?

If we designed a baseline thing. Like, hey, standard carrier at x size, with x guns and x fighters. Everyone picks their own unique image, maybe a unique feature to add on from a list, pick up an added weakness to trade off if they do.

Zero work.

Added Justification:
- No arms race because all factions have access to equal technology.
- Requests can be made for faction-unique tech (say the CIS wants to use their long-range turbolasers); they get added to the list, 'priced' by RPJs for weaknesses, and can be added with equivalents.
- Less work because it's just a quick double-check and bam, ship approved.
- New Major Factions do not have to submit 9-20 brand-new entries.
- Still the capacity for uniqueness, but without the tedium of ship design surrounding it.
- Space battles become less of a dogpile of 'who has better tech' and, given that it's all the same, it becomes a chess match, relying on superior strategy and good writing skills, instead of just GMing.

@[member="Ashin Varanin"] @[member="Tefka"]

This. I totally agree with this idea. It would resolve so much build-up in the Factory.

 

[Jorus Merrill]

I feel like Qae's idea falls under the heading of 'genius idea whose opportunity cost is way too high.' How would it be implemented -- by wiping existing faction tech? No. By using it for only new factions? Then everything before it is grandfathered in and balance issues result again. No. Yesterday, when he first told me about it, I loved it. Today I still love it, but it would break everything.

 

[Qae Shena]

@[member="Jorus Merrill"]

The idea is to completely break down the current system, yes. Everyone would need to re-stat existing ships, for the implementation, but it wouldn't be that big a jump.

If you want to cut off the arms race, you'd need to take into account the eight major factions that have a full ship roster. Something has to give.

 

[Akio Kahoshi]

After a good bit of time in the Factory, I'm starting to believe that it's mostly served its purpose. All the major factions are armed, it's thoroughly possible to arm new factions with publicly available stuff -- like, at the faction level, there's almost no more need for it. I love helping people design Just The Right Ship, but there does need to be less focus on the engineering and stats of it. The more micro it gets, the more the work piles up and the more ams-racey it gets -- and that means more complaints and arguably less fun. "Your faction can't have that!" "Well, your faction can't have THAT!" Tale as old as time.

If you can find a way to cut that off at the knees, you'll save us all some grief.

So every new faction is forced to use mass produced stuff for the rest of the board's existence? Now, okay I can understand a third world level faction who has very little money using whatever they can afford, that's pretty real life. But modern first world countries design their own stuff, better stuff than the free (or rather black) market stuff. Stuff that when you see it, you know where it came from. Imagine how things would be in history if real life worked like this. WWII the germans, french, italians, and english all have the stuff they had because those factions were around for a long time. However American and Industrialized Japan being younger factions are using whatever generic stuff they can buy from third party producers.

Suddenly history is different.

 

[Akio Kahoshi]

As I've said before, rather than coming up with a whole bunch of new limitations, limitations that I truly believe we do not need, we just need a core of Factory Judges that all they do is factory work. Let the RPJs focus on the role playing side, and let factory judges focus on factory.

Watching factory, there really hasn't even been a ton of new stuff being added. Just a handful of factory judges that regularly take the time to judge the submissions rather than letting them pile up for 3-4 days untouched and then going "look how many there are!" would solve 90% of the issues.