Fantasy-inspired content in the SW universe

[Lurcano Car'dann]

[member="Emilia Marean"] This has literally boiled down into an argument about semantics. The Force is technically not supernatural because it is apart of the SW laws of physics. And if Magic was anything Metaphysical, then a lot of the things we call science now a days could be classified as magic. And as for your Druid example, Star Wars has been around a lot longer then World of Warcraft has. I think Star Wars takes precedence over it. If anything, WoW copied the SW Sci-Fi concept and turned it into something fantasy related.

[member="Cyrus Tregessar"] *SMH* I can just as easily go and say. "Look you can take the entire plot of (insert random generic fantasy plot) add spaceships, and ta-da, it's a Sci-Fi novel." Sounds asinine when I say it right? Yet it's literally nothing different to what you just said. And as for your refrences about symbolism. Literally every genre of fiction. Whether it's Sci-Fi, Fantasy, Historical Fiction, etc. Whatever. Has those elements. Are you really going to claim that any story that has a cliche in it is a Fantasy story?

Isac is probably right in saying that Star Wars is more Science Fantasy then anything. But my original point still stands. Science Fantasy is not Fantasy, so we should still exclude common fantasy elements that have no place in a scientific genres setting.

 

[Cyrus Tregessar]

Agreed, [member="Isaac Ideus"], I've always found the Fantasy IN SPACE aspect to be part of the appeal of Star Wars. Want a giant spaceship battle? It's got that. Want a noble knight on a quest to save a kingdom from a dark power? It's got that too! The best of both worlds!

But the force is fucking magic.

 

[Lurcano Car'dann]

[member="Cyrus Tregessar"] The only way you could consider the force as magic is if you consider modern day science as magic. And a knight going to save a kingdom from a dark power isn't fantasy. It might be cliche, but it's not fantasy.

 

[Aithne Charr]

[member="Lurcano Car'dann"]

You do realize these "Star Wars laws of physics" were created in the books right, not by george lucas...

 

[Aithne Charr]

[member="Lurcano Car'dann"]

Also, Most Science we have today, was considered magic five hundred years ago. Herbalism is a chief example of that.

 

[Lurcano Car'dann]

[member="Solan Charr"] KotOR, SWTOR, the Clone Wars, etc. Those all aren't expressly created by Lucas; but they are backed by Lucas Arts and given his blessing. And as for the thing about most sciences today, that kind of ties into my point. Magic is another word for science that is to advanced for us to comprehend.

Edit: Unless chiefly stated otherwise depending on the story.

 

[Aithne Charr]

[member="Lurcano Car'dann"]

Only The Clone wars is canon, and just like you said with World of Warcraft is recent. Again, the movies alone see the force as magic. Only when you add in B-canon or C-canon(Books, games, and comics) Does the force no longer become purely magic.

 

[Lurcano Car'dann]

[member="Solan Charr"] That's not true. Many different stories have been canonized even though they have no affiliation with Lucas Arts. I simply stated the things that had affiliations with Lucas Arts stuck true to the Sci-Fi/Science Fantasy theme. And in the movies, it's never really elaborated on. As I said, Magic is simply another word for Science that is to advanced for us to understand. The Midi-Chlorians and the actual definition of the Force explain what it is.

 

[Aithne Charr]

Breaking this one Up this time. First This

That's not true. Many different stories have been canonized even though they have no affiliation with Lucas Arts. I simply stated the things that had affiliations with Lucas Arts stuck true to the Sci-Fi/Science Fantasy theme.

A: Its Scifi, or its science fantasy. Make up your mind because they are two different genres.
B: No, again, you are wrong. When Disney was given Star Wars, lucas himself said only the movies and the Tv shows count as canon, That is why we have LEGENDS now.
C: Lucas Arts no longer exists....

And in the movies, it's never really elaborated on. As I said, Magic is simply another word for Science that is to advanced for us to understand. The Midi-Chlorians and the actual definition of the Force explain what it is.

This is also wrong.

A: Magic in most cultures is understood by its link to rituals and in fantasy a medium normally considered mana or a person's life force... *Cough cough Star Wars cough cough*
B: Yes, its not elaborated on in the movies, this is why without LEgends it is purely a magical and supernatural force, not something with scientific reasoning.
C: Midi-cholians are the Why they can use the force, not the how. Much like the ability in dnd or other fantasy settings. You can use magic, or you cant, there is no "Oh maybe if i train." No you cant. And question, i seem to remember in Star wars there are Force Sensitives, and non-force sensitives... you see where im getting at?

[member="Lurcano Car'dann"]

 

[Natasi Fortan]

I think the explanation of the Force as a kind of magic, and its user as a kind of wizard, was a way to quickly explain to US what the Force and Jedi were, not to explain it in a meaningful way in-universe. But that's just my thought. I also think this argument is pretty dumb.

 

[Isaac Ideus]

[member="Cyrus Tregessar"] The only way you could consider the force as magic is if you consider modern day science as magic. And a knight going to save a kingdom from a dark power isn't fantasy. It might be cliche, but it's not fantasy.

The Force is science as much as qi or thetans are...

 

[Lucian Trell]

I always thought Midi-chlorians where a way secretly of smuggling in Dragon Ball Z esque power levels into the Star Wars cannon.

Obi Wan : Master what does the scouter say about Anakins Midi-chlorian count?

Qui Gon : Its over NIIIIIIINE-THOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNNDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD!!!!!

 

[Beowoof]

OK, sooooo...

What makes something fantasy? Magic, and real objects/creatures doing things that real objects/creatures can't do.
Knights/dragons/samurai are not fantasy. They are historical or historically influenced beings.
Knights/dragons/samurai with mystical powers are fantasy.

What is science-fiction? Hypothetical objects/creatures doing things through hypothetical and/or real scientific means.
Robots are not science-fiction. But they were when they were simply mechanical beings that were imagined by people like Asimov. C-3PO is science-fiction because he is capable of doing things modern robots cannot yet do, but, hypothetically, they will be able to do in the future.
Massive space battleships and hyperdrives and lightsabers are all science-fiction.

Star Wars is therefore a science-fiction story, involving hypothetical technologies, inventions, and worlds. However, it most definitely has a fantasy element--the Force, which is a sort of 'magic'. And aliens can be argued either way--although I would point you to Star Trek, which also has aliens but no one classifies it as a fantasy series.

Star Wars = science-fiction with fantasy

Why do I not believe in medieval armor and swords and such in Star Wars? Ask the British about how the African natives fared against the Maxim gun.

 

[Hal Terrano]

Perhaps on a planet that had miraculously avoided technology, yes, it could work.

But not as the norm.

 

[Darth Hauntruss]

The Force came about because Lucas has weaboo hard on for East Asian metaphysical philosophy from Bushido to Lao Tzu (and Kurosawa films). The Force is magic, in space. And Jedi and Sith are space paladins/wizards/warlocks/battle mages. Is SW = Traditional Fantasy? Not really. Its a Space Western, above all else, with it's own brand of Magic and occasionally some science fiction.

 

[Ashin Varanin]

The Force came about because Lucas has weaboo hard on for East Asian metaphysical philosophy from Bushido to Lao Tzu (and Kurosawa films). The Force is magic, in space. And Jedi and Sith are space paladins/wizards/warlocks/battle mages. Is SW = Traditional Fantasy? Not really. Its a Space Western, above all else, with it's own brand of Magic and occasionally some science fiction.

This. A good chunk of it is fantasy - but take away the surface and the technological elements and you realize it's not primarily western fantasy. 'It's fantasy or it's science fiction' is a dichotomy with a whole lot of western assumptions behind it, and that's as much a matter of genre literacy as anything.

 

[Iziz]

Star-wars is not hard science fiction, it's science fantasy.

It has dragons in space, it has Sith capable of destroying worlds with their 'Sith Sorcery' Darth Andeddu (sp?) is basically a lich

The further you get into the extended material, and the further to the dark side you get, the more fantasy it gets.

Dark side force spirits are a thing, smoke demons, alchemy abominations, necromancy, diabolism, sith swords, mind control, ressurection, weather control, sympathetic magic (night sisters.)

Bedlam spirits which can control time and space are effectively force gods. Typhojem and his cults and displaying actual presense. FORCE DEMONS which existed before the celestials, they're made of energy, not medichlorians. Then Sel Makor and Abeloth to put the cherry on the cake.

Like c'mon. at this point anyone trying to reason "the force is rooted in science" has gotta be kidding themselves... Yeah, the low level pushes and pulls and lightning and a few other things have some reasoning behind it with energy forces. But CHAOS and the SPIRIT WORLD and everything on endor rips that away and laughs like a giddy school girl.

EDIT: also, the most proven theory on the force, is the living force theory, as it has more events and applications which followers get to back it up. Ie, people who believe int he living force become force ghosts etc. So, if the force is alive, that immediately discounts all notions of science, as it is an ephimeral living entity, and laws of biology dictate that can't happen.

(And also, the african natives 1/ did not have armour AT ALL. 2/ Could not use magic AT ALL. 3/ Did not have force nexus' within their swords. So, that's a bit of a strawman if i ever heard one. lel <3)

#exitstrollthreadstageleft

 

[huggin_munnin]

So, you all see nothing wrong with a giant space katana wielding samurai bunny charging clones with laser rifles who disembarked from drop ships out of the atmosphere. Either that or the Khaleesi riding Drogon into battle against robots with laser cannon arms?

Seriously, taking elements is all well and good, but there's using ideas that fit the feel of things and there is just shoving a square peg into a round hole. That's what people are missing. This is not about 'oppression of muh freedoms'.

 

[Ignatius]

Khaleesi riding Drogon into battle against robots with laser cannon arms?

That actually almost happened.......

 

[Iziz]

So, you all see nothing wrong with a giant space katana wielding samurai bunny charging clones with laser rifles who disembarked from drop ships out of the atmosphere. Either that or the Khaleesi riding Drogon into battle against robots with laser cannon arms?

Seriously, taking elements is all well and good, but there's using ideas that fit the feel of things and there is just shoving a square peg into a round hole. That's what people are missing. This is not about 'oppression of muh freedoms'.

If that is the story they want to tell, then sure, i see no problem with it, I may 'choose' not to write with that person, because I do not see that kind of character meshing well with the story that I am trying to tell, but such is my right to choose. It's not my position to dictate what a person thinks is fun to write on a Star Wars roleplaying Site. Hell, I can take both of those concepts, combine them! and make it a compelling character with a little work, that i reckon people would love to role-play with. It'd be odd, granted... but like i said with my other posts.

Also, once again your comment is a gigantic straw-man which undermined the points i was trying to make. The theme of the thread is fantasy in starwars, meaning supernatural aspects as key themes, not giant samurai bunnies... So i would divert you back to that theme. Star-wars IS a fantasy setting (space opera technically... which are open to supernatural themes), it's not like star-trek or battlestar galactica in being hard Sci-fi and completely founded in science. Star-wars 'does' just have space magic, like woman using the force to shapeshift themselves into animals on a whim... there is no scientific explanation for the sudden non-existence of mass.