Fleeting: Why Don't You Like It?

[Valiens Nantaris]

Hello, hello!

Despite the rather confronting title, this is not an accusation, nor is it a smugly superior thing, I genuinely want to know.

I know that 90%+ of writers in invasions don't like fleeting or at least don't take part, and I want to know why so we can possibly fix it.
But, there might be no fix, I get that, but I at least want to know the problem before I give up on a solution.

I would ask that comments about other posts be kept to a minimum. We're not going to get far if everyone is attacking everyone else.

I've put up ideas which I feel might be right, but if you don't see an option which fits, tell me.

For those who DO like fleeting...well you're likely able to offer improvements and suggestions but probably won't have a good time in this thread.

In this context, I define fleeting as "The use of NPC fleets and armies during Invasions and Skirmishes where their actions can have some impact on the result."

Note: As always I will vote in the first option so I can easily see the results.

 

[Sarge Potteiger]

I've enjoyed it. I just don't do it.

 

[Veino Garn]

I don't know how to take hits or calculate anything that's going on. Also, being more character focused, a lot of what I enjoy just isn't in fleeting.

 

[Aela Talith]

I've enjoyed it. I just don't do it.

The Grey Knight echoes my thoughts.

Like all RP'ing, you just need the right opponent.

 

[Garza]

I have wanted to get into fleeting, but the best I can do is image a ground war but with ships, And the best I have done for any of my characters is just straight up piloting to the other ship and trying to take it over from the inside. (Used the same tactic in Battlefront 2) Just never really got into it I guess.

 

[Ilias Nytrau]

It's not that I don't like fleeting - I've seen it done, and done well, in a story and it's been awesome to see. That's the thing, 'story' vs 'win/lose'. There's a lot more satisfaction, I find, in an agreed upon, predetermined outcome, which is possible when things are story-centred. When you know where things are going in advance, when you know why it's happening, and the fallout etc. that will occur, it's much more satisfying figuring out the best/most awesome/most IC dramatic way to get there.

Story. I love story, okay? Tell me you agree that story is awesome and must be had whenever possible.

But what it comes down to, for me, on the question of fleeting... I've never known how to fleet, and I feel that's a gap in my knowledge that I'd like to fill at some point.

 

[Nyxie]

I'm just speaking for the general majority in voting for "Confused/Unsure," as I think more people can get into it but just aren't sure where or how to start.

If I may be so brutally honest, people usually come to SWRP to play gods, not to experience the slow and cautious tedium that is strategic warfare.

I honestly believe most people don't give a poodoo. Shoot me. Can't fix disinterest. Sorry, just fed up today.

More people should just give it a shot, but I think for most, it's just not their thing, and it's sad/lonely there are so few of us.

 

[Ellie Mors]

[member="Valiens Nantaris"]
I don't believe 90% of us do not like fleeting, rather we don't do it. To me it seems more of an archetype that you would purposely create a character for, much like creating a FU for force abilities in PvP. While fleeting can really be done by anyone, it wouldn't make much sense for a force user to be sitting in the admiral seat of a massive fleet in a war rather than being on the front lines and using their abilities.

Edit:
I would much rather be engaged in single combat, or even being tag-teamed by the enemy, in a battle of strengths and skills, rather than worrying about who has the better ship. I've also seen people blatantly god-mod a missile swerving out of the way in what seemed like a dog-fight, so I have no interest in dealing with those types either (I'm not being particular, nor will I mention names). I suppose I've never really tried to do it, nor had I ever heard of doing so until I got here (I role-played on games before I came to SWRP [Which was my first forum RP site, aside from something I did a very long time ago] in which you would create/customize a character, have a sprite, and walk around a map that the creator made for you to travel on, and engage in RP with various commands that would show up via an interface). I wouldn't say I'm incapable of doing it, but it would be something I'm much less familiar doing than pvp.

 

[Nyxie]

[member="Darth Sinna"]
The thing is, a person can enjoy both of those things and it wouldn't be entirely odd at all. My former character, Alachei Mnemenos, was both a Force user and a naval commander. There's perfect sense in an adept Force user being among the elite of the military, as both share similar qualities. People just don't do it because - at least I feel - to them, it is either boring or tedious. There's oft more fun (and self-satisfaction for some) in crossing swords and spewing space magic than there is sitting on a giant chair, commanding ships to crawl through space and shoot at each other for hours at end... or armies on a battlefield.

Point in case, Darth Vader flew the X1 during the battle on the Death Star.

 

[Captain Larraq]

[member="Valiens Nantaris"]
I don't believe 90% of us do not like fleeting, rather we don't do it. To me it seems more of an archetype that you would purposely create a character for, much like creating a FU for force abilities in PvP. While fleeting can really be done by anyone, it wouldn't make much sense for a force user to be sitting in the admiral seat of a massive fleet in a war rather than being on the front lines and using their abilities.

*stares at Ayden*

 

[Ellie Mors]

[member="Darth Sinna"]
The thing is, a person can enjoy both of those things and it wouldn't be entirely odd at all. My former character, Alachei Mnemenos, was both a Force user and a naval commander. There's perfect sense in an adept Force user being among the elite of the military. People just don't do it because - at least I feel - to them, it is either boring or tedious. There's oft more fun (and self-satisfaction for some) in crossing swords and spewing space magic than there is sitting on a giant chair, commanding ships to crawl through space and shoot at each other for hours at end.

The issue with your point is that it isn't a widely used subject for any single source of material either in Canon or Fanon. While most force users were higher ranking military, most of them still were infantry unless their specialties lied elsewhere. Silara, for example, would not be suitable for fleeting, and I never will ever force my character to become something I did not originally envision it to become. Fleeting, for the express reasoning of me not even knowing there was such a thing when I created Silara, happens to be something that does not belong in her repertoire of skills and training.

You will very rarely find a Jedi Master or a Sith Lord being the person who is piloting any of the large ships, and while the Sith Lord may call the shots, (s)he is rarely the person that would be considered the leader of a fleet - as in there would be someone selected for that job.

 

[Nyxie]

[member="Darth Sinna"]
Actually, I just edited my canon evidence in my post as you posted, lol. But I guess you're right, that was once, and I can't name others off of the top of my head.

 

[Ellie Mors]

[member="Nyxie"]
I don't consider flying a TIE Fighter and engaging in a dog fight to be the same as fleeting. Fleeting is generally the sort of stuff that Larraq and other engage in - usually involving a fleet.

 

[Nyxie]

Therein lies your problem (the fleeting problem, I mean).

Starfighters are part of a fleet, so that is very factually a part of fleeting by extension. That's another issue; people tend to undervalue smaller naval assets here. They just see the massive ships and colossal hunks of metal in the sky, laden with massive cannons. I'd say it was how I felt but it's just an evident fact. We have several squadrons on this board and none of them have a full squadron roster. Squadrons are rarely, if ever, mentioned in fleet battles and overall they are usually considered too small to make an overwhelming impact, when in reality, their mobility and quantities make almost as much of a difference in the tide of naval battles as they did in both World Wars. Even in the modern times, you'd never even hear about a first world occupation, invasion or theatre that didn't immediately begin with UAVs, Bombers or Attack fighters.

Fighters are part of fleets.

Carriers are part of fleets.

Dropships are part of fleets.

Escorts are part of fleets.

Almost the entire planetary operation except for the tanks and boots relies heavily on what it's airborne/starborne counterpart does, and even those would never make it far without assistance. It's a very broad field that I think is just underappreciated. Like I said, sometimes it comes across as kinda boring and for some people, that's probably true.

 

[Ellie Mors]

[member="Nyxie"]
Yes, but generally fleeting is more or less the use of an entire fleet, as controlled by a someone (say Larraq, only because the name of the OS fleeter escapes me at the moment), and to use a recent invasion example of the Empress Teta invasion, it is not fleeting if you are in two starfighters in a dogfight. Yes, a starfighter can belong to a fleet, it does not mean it will always belong to one. I use the OS vs OP thread as an example as there was no fleeting allowed as per agreements, and small dogfights with non-capital ships being used were allowed. Now I have no idea why the use of vehicles and ground troops aren't considered fleeting here, as the term fleet is not exclusive for aircraft in the slightest.

Regardless, I will use a starfighter for travel and small skirmishes against one or two people, but you will not find me engaging the Mandalorian or Protectorate fleets with one.

 

[Nyxie]

I wasn't referring exclusively to one starfighter. It stands as fairly obvious that one starfighter (Luke notwithstanding, and even he couldn't have done it without the help of hundreds of others) isn't going to change the tide of battle.

It. Isn't. A. Complete fleet. Without starfighters (or any of that other stuff). Point. Blank_

That's the view that kills our breed. There's so much more to enjoy there in so many other ways.

 

[Nyxie]

Now I have no idea why the use of vehicles and ground troops aren't considered fleeting here, as the term fleet is not exclusive for aircraft in the slightest.

This, I can answer. They're not naval assets. Fleeting is a naval coin term.

 

[Lord Ghoul]

Too much time.

To properly do large scale fleeting one needs to know the types of vessel under one's command - know their gun counts. their shield strength, their speed, and their weaknesses, their fighter squadron count or lack thereof - as well as the enemy's ships. This typically takes several hours of researching, gathering wookieepedia articles and consolidating the database of ships in our own R&D. That's just the logistics planning.

After this there needs to be a battle plan, which usually involves maneuvering upwards of two dozen ships in as realistic and strategic a manner as possible. This - since none of us are PhDs in Military History (although some think they are) - takes more research on tactics, maneuvering, angles of attack, etc.

Mid-battle one must constantly keep track of unit casualties, monitor the position of every vessel in one's fleet, and write out the overall actions with increasing specificity as the battle goes on. I.E. it is not satisfactory to simply say "Fire the cannons" one must say which cannons and where they are firing and what countermeasures are being deployed against the incoming bomber. Now repeat said action forty times to represent every vessel under one's command.

If, like me, one suffers from structural confusion of unit placement, it becomes necessary to create battlefield maps so that both you and your opponent know what's where.

And, at the end of the day, it's just too much work. If I want to fight large scale, realistic battles incorporating hundreds of individual units, I'm just going to go play Total War. If I want to have fun writing a story I'm going to come here and write about an individual's experience of that battle.

This is typically why people who do fleet regularly only have one character, like Ayden. Those who have a wide range of involved characters- even the very experienced - often lose out to the person with one character because their focus is split.


Then again, this is all if you want to do fleeting right. If you want to suck, well, that's easy.

Fire the cannons.

Note: this is different than story-fleeting, with a predetermined outcome. In general, most people on the board prioritize their storyline above someone else's, leading to the "I always want to win" mentality, which makes fleeting more of a board game than an actual written story.

This is also usually applied to duels, which is why I have taken to viewing duels as combative persuasive essays rather than stories - though they can be both.

 

[Darth Carnifex]

Too much time.

To properly do large scale fleeting one needs to know the types of vessel under one's command - know their gun counts. their shield strength, their speed, and their weaknesses, their fighter squadron count or lack thereof - as well as the enemy's ships. This typically takes several hours of researching, gathering wookieepedia articles and consolidating the database of ships in our own R&D. That's just the logistics planning.

After this there needs to be a battle plan, which usually involves maneuvering upwards of two dozen ships in as realistic and strategic a manner as possible. This - since none of us are PhDs in Military History (although some think they are) - takes more research on tactics, maneuvering, angles of attack, etc.

Mid-battle one must constantly keep track of unit casualties, monitor the position of every vessel in one's fleet, and write out the overall actions with increasing specificity as the battle goes on. I.E. it is not satisfactory to simply say "Fire the cannons" one must say which cannons and where they are firing and what countermeasures are being deployed against the incoming bomber. Now repeat said action forty times to represent every vessel under one's command.

If, like me, one suffers from structural confusion of unit placement, it becomes necessary to create battlefield maps so that both you and your opponent know what's where.

And, at the end of the day, it's just too much work. If I want to fight large scale, realistic battles incorporating hundreds of individual units, I'm just going to go play Total War. If I want to have fun writing a story I'm going to come here and write about an individual's experience of that battle.

This is typically why people who do fleet regularly only have one character, like Ayden. Those who have a wide range of involved characters- even the very experienced - often lose out to the person with one character because their focus is split.


Then again, this is all if you want to do fleeting right. If you want to suck, well, that's easy.

Fire the cannons.

I think you and I are better suited to fighting on the ground anyways.

I'll get the grenade launcher.

 

[Nyxie]

That is entirely true! Hmm.

Maybe the thing is that people just need a simplified system to refer to, kind of like how the new templates give the option of either listing details or just a number scale, but work hand in hand. This way, the less dedicated fleeter due to time or attention constraints can in fact just say "Fire the cannons" with group X and Y, and all of the damage output can just be referred to from a preset scale, leaving the other writer to interpret that in more fine detail if they so choose but leaving the overall action the same. This works in reverse for said simplified fleeter, who can just compare all the complex bullpoodoo to the scale and figure damage from that.

It would be possible in this way for veteran fleeters like Larraq, Tresegar, Cater, Circe (yes, I mentioned Circe - one can suck at something and still be a veteran at something, it just implies past experience) and even I, to do battle against someone less versed or less dedicated without any major complication involved.

"Uses X, equals Y in effect."

We did this with all of the SHIP TEMPLATES. Why wouldn't we be able do this with fleeting, which, by majority, utilizes said submissions?