Fleeting: Why Don't You Like It?

[Ayden Cater]

*prowls*

Gotta catch the bus for work first, but my own response is forth-coming.

Valik and Xyhn got here before me.

*makes kissy faces at Larraq*

 

[Jsc]

I have a hard time transitioning from a junior officer's/new characters perspective during the battle, and then up to the overview positions were you as a writer are PvP'ing with numbers and tactics. Because, not all my characters are Admirals or Fleet Commanders. Some are just Navy Ensigns or Lieutenants with only a computer screen to look at.

Fleeting was like chess when all I needed was a Star Trek Bridge drama.

 

[Gir Quee]

My experience at other boards with fleeting echoes what a lot of other people have already said. But typically, the main problems that I've seen at the past is people being ultra-competitive to the point of godmodding, or one small naval action draws a disproportionate response from another faction, which then stops the weaker faction from fleeting at all.


But there are ways around these problems.


The very first is to simply have an agreed upon outcome to better focus on the writing.


The second that I've used in the past where a competitor and I wanted to have a competitive game is to play the battle by mechanical means (typically by using Full Thrust rules, and then playing it out via dice) or back in the day, using Star Wars Rebellion's fleet mode via dial-up connection (but that only limits the battles to certain canon ships). Full Thrust rules and ship designer programs for it are available free on the net, and while it is some work, the mechanics are basic enough that people generally can figure out the basics of how to play in less than 15 minutes. If anyone is interested in trying it out with me, or has questions as to how it works, feel free to ask me.


Once the other player and i figured it out how the battle unfolded by that simulation, we'd simply write it out, allowing us to focus more on the actions and story of the battle rather than being Uber-god players bent on beating out the other person.

Fleet sizes or 'How to stop Apprentice Bob showing up with 5 command ships'.

This could be done with a meterage cap. For example, set that you can only have up to ~1600 meters of capital ships present at a battle. That means that Apprentice Bob might arrive with one ISD (1600 meters in length), while his opponent shows up with five Nebulon-B frigates (300 meters in length for each of them, for 1500 meters total). This has the side effect of also keeping fleet sizes down to things that can be easily matched.

The downside of this system is that it doesn't really account for strategic positioning, but for fun scraps or simpliticity's sake, it's the easy way.

How to actually do it or 'Do I really need 3 Excel sheets open for one post?!'

Limiting fleet size helps with this, but it's unavoidable to some extent. But if you do the battle mechanics all at once, it's not that bad, because you can do the battle in one sitting (if your opponent is online and talking with you as the battle progresses).

Ease of posting or 'Where am I on this 3D map again?'

While space combat is realistically a 3D battlespace, most battles that we see in the movies tend to be working 2D with a very limited amount of depth. That same holds true for most fleeting that I've seen, if nothing than for simplicity's sake. Full Thrust uses a hex map, and that's typically what I use for tracking my battles because it also helps with figuring out how maneuvers and speed also play into the battle. But again, you'll probably have to share the map along with your updated movements with your opponent if you want clean-cut play without any ambiguity.

 

[Danger Arceneau]

It is too confusing.

The whole different speed limits and everything else in regards to shoot what and what in SWChaos that makes it all about numbers instead of just roleplaying as if in a SW Novel.

Back in the day, I was able to fleet on Sithlore just by glossing over the technical stuff.

This capital ship went pew pew to this other random ship! My x-wings went to pew pew on this other capital ship! My bombers then went in with their proton torpedos to bomb this other capital ship. Some did damage, some didn't. Some went kamikaze.

Now a days, fleeters here in SWChaos make it WAY too complicated. All about numbers.

I hate numbers that are just tossed around aimlessly.

It ends up killing my desire to rp fleeting.

If they were in an actual table top dice deal? I'd like it better with set stats and a character sheet with a GM that rolls the results and we rp it in the thread with those results.

 

[Sarge Potteiger]

I love that [member="Evad"] just kept that quote on hand

 

[Meanken]

Two reasons for me. One is that it's all so confusing, and this is coming from an avid gamer who spends a great deal of time playing RPG's and RTS's and the like. I don't have time for the hours of research that would be needed to do it correctly. I liked that idea the one dude had above about resolving it by playing some sim game (be it a SW game or something else that has ships that are nearly equivalent to the ships in battle.)

Second, and the reason I voted for, is that I just prefer ground combat. Lot simpler, more fun for me, and you get to smack talk your foe in between attacks, which is always fun lol.

 

[Garith Organa]

I voted other and here is my explanation.

As some know I have experience with Fleeting on other broads mainly playing Garith Darkhold SR / Togashi Yokuni. Here on Chaos I have not done one single rp with Fleeting regardless of the flavor Yokuni could bring to navel combat. There just seems to be a lot of rules. That is ok because with what I’ve seen in the past I see it as a necessary evil. Even veteran writers with strong history of good sportsmanship can easily get caught up in the win or lose mentality that naturally comes with fleeting.

I have not said no to fleeting but I will most likely not do it and here is why....

I’m old set in my ways. When I started roleplaying Dungeon and Dragons came in a little red box with only a couple of books. Yes I’m that old to have played with the first books D&D has come out with. I still have them by the way and I don’t think I will ever part with them.

Anyways when I roleplay I like the interaction that you do not know what the other person is going to do (for sure). That you don’t know what your going to do on your next action until it is your action to take. I thrive in roleplays when you have to make a quick choice. It adds to the moment of what that character must be feeling. That rush of emotional adrenaline.

If I wanted this type of roleplaying (Fleeting here) I would play table top Battle Tech with someone. Basically a crack out chess match. But one that you can look across the table and see the person your dueling is either enjoying themselves or freaking out. A match at the end win or lose you can go over and shake the persons hand.

That is just me. Like I said I’m just a old man.

 

[Agatha Nestor]

Some say it's because it brings out a play to win mentality in others, others that it's too reliant on the numbers and becomes too much like a game. I say it's neither of those things. As far as I am concerned, it's the lack of knowledge on the respective field that me, and a lot of other people, lack and / or feel they are missing to properly perform a naval scenario. No amount of simplification or restrictions of vessels and templates will do anything to alleviate the issue of lack of knowledge.

Stuff such as Duels, and land forces skirmishes are a lot easier to do because, even if you don't know the first damn thing about proper fighting stances and / or tactics, you can still whiff it as a lot of it will come down to logic and intuition. Fleeting is a lot more complex than that, and the burden of knowledge pushes people away from it, and towards the more simplified scenarios. Only way you can make fleeting a mainstream activity in battle scenarios is by having Larraq, Ayden, and Cyrus start holding seminars for others to teach them the intricacies of it.

 

[Cyrus Tregessar]

[member="Garith Darkhold JR"]

Bro I will MegaMek with you any time.

I'm also willing to help with making a fleeting guide.

A longer reply will have to wait till I'm at a computer, though.

 

[Gir Quee]

I'd be willing to contribute to such a guide too, though my contribution will probably be far more in-character knowledge than anything else.

 

[Ayden Cater]

Rather than rehash points that have already been made *glares at Valik* I'm gonna move on to address a common misconception that I keep seeing repeated.

"There are too many rules"

There exists no official rules in the SWRP rule directory that govern fleeting directly; some mention what manner of ships a faction might have available to it, but that's more indirect than direct. The act of fleeting, of two naval forces clashing for dominance in space, is often only governed by a single agreed upon rule; total fleet size. Many people will recognize the rule as one stated at the very beginning of an invasion post, the "Each side may have X meters of ship to use" rule. Beyond this rule, no other rules exist beyond what writers agree with one another.

And it's interesting to me that ground combat, and to a much larger extent dueling, share this similar laissez-faire attitude with rules, of having few if any rules to govern their course, yet you don't often hear complaints that such fights are confusing or have no clear indicator as to what sort of damage is dealt out. Why is this? At their core, there is little difference between these three types of combat (fleet, ground, duel), yet by and large it's only the first that is complained about with any regularity.

Now don't get me wrong; I'm not just ragging or anything. This is more of an observation than anything. In the ASA Invasion of Naboo, I worked very closely with both [member="Salem Norongachi"] and [member="Irys Arist'lar"] to ensure that things were fair and interesting. Folks who followed the fight might have noticed that the ASA came into the fight with a large number of ships that weren't accounted for in the total fleet pools on either side. Not only was this intentional, it was a move I myself came up with on their behalf. We tried new things and had a blast doing it. A few times, myself or Irys didn't understand what had been posted and talked to the other person. It was one of the most enjoyable fleeting actions I've had to date, even if I lost several Star Destroyers to surprise and misdirection.

Ultimately, there is no reason to fear or shy away from fleeting beyond personal IC preference and history. Ayden is a Force User, yes, but he's a strategist first rather than a fighter. He is much more at home coordinating a fleet action than he is running through hallways with his lightsaber in hand. When we can talk to each other and treat each other with common courtesy and respect, you'll find that many awesome and magical things can happen.

 

[Cyrus Tregessar]

[member="Ayden Cater"] I was really looking forward to squaring off with you over Fondor.

One of these days, man.

 

[Beowoof]

All I'll say is that people are so quickly annoyed by the 'godmodding' in fleeting (which I have personally never seen).

But one person creating cyclones, throwing AT-ATs around, dissolving the brains of an entire army, and conjuring up zombie dinosaurs? Nah, that's cool.

The only issue I've ever seen in a fleeting skirmish is when players refuse to take significant damage to their ships. And I'm sure nothing like that happens in PVP... :lol:

 

[sabrina]

[member="Cyrus Tregessar"] [member="Ayden Cater"]

you know you to could do skirmish anyway, as we are technically at war. Could be over some prison, as an objective.

Also back on topic, why not start with rough idea how much damage each weapon does to shields and dura steel.

 

[Not Ordo]

I Want to Fleet.

 

[Lord Ghoul]

If fleeting turns into something so ridiculously tactical that people need to start searching through Lord Horatio Nelson's journal for advice on how to win, why do it?

If you're using Nelson's handbook in the first place, then you're doing it wrong.

He never had to deal with swarms of star fighters or ships that could launch missiles from a mile away at Trafalgar. In fact, his novel idea in 19th century Naval Warfare - closing as fast as possible, then attempting to get behind the stern of the enemy vessel - is probably the best way to kill off your entire ​sci fi star wars fleet.

Now that I've "contributed" to the conversation... what I really wanted to say was:

Fleet sizes or 'How to stop Apprentice Bob showing up with 5 command ships'.

lol, yes.

 

[Ayden Cater]

As far as stopping situations like brand new characters showing up with the latest, greatest, and biggest of everything, leave that up to the Faction Leaders. And if they want to give out such powerful tech to inexperienced fleeters, then help yourself however you see fit.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

I propose 3 main avenues to improve matters.

1. The submission of fleets to the NPC area of the Codex, just like land units. Factions can submit multiple ‘templates’ so that they can select from any approved combinations of these fleets. Said fleets would have size limits, and each fleeter would be able to bring one of these submitted fleets to a battle.
2. Cut down on complexity of the actual fleeting action itself by simplifying matters. A measure-countermeasure system allows new and old fleeters to effectively RP each other, combined with the smaller fleet sizes to make things easier to understand. An example of this is the old rock-scissors-paper game where one type of attack is countered by another.
3. Offer incentives or minor rewards for those judged to play and take losses fairly in these RPs. These would be things like signature rank titles and the like. The biggest problem has always been writers not taking hits when they should, so promote good behaviour. On the flip side, writers will be encouraged not to death charge enemy fleets because doing so will reduce the ability of their faction to win that battle.

There are dozens of ways this sort of thing could be done. From tracking production of ships to in-depth combat systems, but that only furthers and increases the niche aspect of this.

If we want more people to fleet we need to remove the arcane, over-complicated mess that it is now. And yes, for experienced fleeters this might seem like a dumbing down, but we need to at least try to get people involved, or fleeting will always be a fringe and neglected part of the board’s RP.

 

[Judas of Vahl]

As far as stopping situations like brand new characters showing up with the latest, greatest, and biggest of everything, leave that up to the Faction Leaders. And if they want to give out such powerful tech to inexperienced fleeters, then help yourself however you see fit.

I'm in favor of this motion.

 

[Judas of Vahl]

If we want more people to fleet we need to remove the arcane, over-complicated mess that it is now. And yes, for experienced fleeters this might seem like a dumbing down, but we need to at least try to get people involved, or fleeting will always be a fringe and neglected part of the board’s RP.

Not exactly. If there were less complications as far as things like: gun count, shield strength, starfighter assaults, and the sort then I would be much more prone to fleeting than I usually do. It's like wearing armor. If you're a weak and frail person and get dared to do God knows what, then of course you would be more willing and confident to do such a thing when wearing protective gear. Without it, you're just scared and confused.

As far as the options go, I'm for all three of those suggestions. They're great, in my opinion, of course.