How are the Invasions going for you?

[Geneviève Lasedri]

The only thing I would say that needs improving is the Invasion system altogether. In my opinion having 3 objectives crammed into 1 thread is way too confusing and time consuming for those who are just joining the thread.

I reckon it would be a lot easier to have a seperate OOC and IC threads for each objective. Yes this would mean we'd need 6 threads for each invasion and that would probably fill up the Open Role-playing and OOC discussion areas but there are always solutions to this. For instance, why not have an entirely new RP area for Invasion threads?

I don't even know if this a relevant place to suggest these changes, but this is coming from someone who has been reading through the entirety of the invasion of Kashyyyk thread for the whole night just to try and get an idea of what is happening. Therefore I, and most probably many others, would very much appreciate adjustments such as these.

^I have been hoping this would happen for a good year now.^

Also, NPC armies should be allotted just like naval fleets. That's the balance you need. If you have 10 Jedi Masters and 10 commanding officers, and the faction is allotted 10,000 troops... each PC character will have 500 NPC troops at their disposal. They lead these troops, and then when their platoons clash with an enemy PC's platoon, that is when NPC forces are coordinated and the PC players can RP either a duel or infantry maneuvers, depending on the engaging players' preferences.

This way, there are limits, more balance between RP and warfare, and less confusion overall.

 

[Kiyron]

We're discussing those issues in the Warmongers Reborn faction, if any of you would like to carry this conversation over there.

 

[Kamon's OOC]

I like the NPC solution.

Anyway, I noticed we got sliced at Objective B and communications have gone down because of it. Since that happened I devised a plan for future use in order to keep us from losing our communications even if they do manage to slice them. Enter the M.I.T.E. This little droid should save our bacon in the future.

 

[Placeholder 0123]

Agreed with all of the above.

The invasions have both been fun to write in, but I just can't keep up with the Sith bringing 20K troopers in every other post without doing the same.

Then it just turns into a contest of who can type the biggest numbers the fastest.

 

[Kian Karr]

The more I think about this idea of limiting NPC force sizes the more I like it......who was that dashingly good odd looking individual who proposed it....

 

[Sanya Val Lerium]

meanwhile in npc world

and the one sith PC be like (not all just some)

 

[Uri Aureleos]

[member="Sanya Val Lerium"]

As a spectator reading parts of the Kashyyyk invasion, I wish to say both gifs feel spot on to what I have read!

The Kashyyyk invasion feel like this:

 

[Kamon's OOC]

What it feels like to fight the OS:

I'm going to be brutally honest here, but this invasion is horrid. C should already have been won thanks to our pilots and the benefits of the 24 hour rule, but because the tagging system isn't always working (which doesn't mean that it's the responsibility of the tagger since they don't KNOW it's not working), that's taking longer to finish because they found out that the pilots planned to provide air support at objective A. Meanwhile, both Objective A and B got zerg rushed by thousands upon thousands of NPC troops, to the point that the PC battles no longer matter as NPC zerg rush is winning objectives. Oh, and the OS whined when we brought in troops to counter their thousands of troops. Come on guys, we have intelligence units too.

As far as Prakith goes, I'm not in it, but I've heard enough from those that are that the OS still likes to find convenient ways to avoid outcomes, up to and including interpreting someone else's factory submission in their own way.

I find it appalling the lack of cooperation from the OS in telling good stories. For them it seems like the only interest is winning at all costs.

Now not all of them are like that. I know some people are having fun battles (I am as Meric against Alicia Drey, for example), but it's still how I and many other people feel.

Sorry if my opinions offend anyone, but I prefer to be straightforward and call it how I see it rather than beat around the bush and get nowhere.

 

[Relit Vandal]

[member="T-Eya Carn"]
Your opinions don't offend, there is some truth in what you say.

I've got to be totally honest: The posts I've been putting up as Rev have not been super enjoyable for me. Taking several hours to figure out what everyone is doing, then write an engaging NPC post that actually tries to maintain attention with entertainment, is not an easy task. What it means is that my writing as Rev has suffered for it. Bland, lack of development, all around not my best work. Thank you [member="Sochi Ru"], [member="Gherron Vael"], and [member="Kian Karr"] for writing with me on this. I know it's not easy dealing with an invasion force but you all have kept with it and I wanted to commend you on it. Seraphina was right to be upset about the general structure of the stronghold but really, that can't be helped with the way kashyyyk has been left to be taken over by the wild, once more. You all were fighting a losing battle from the beginning and once again, I just wanted to say thanks for sticking with it.

I've tried my best to engage what I felt was a reasonable force for attempting to conquer a planet of 45 million wookies. I didn't feel like 26,000 was too much but perhaps I am removed and seemingly biased. I checked around on that number from several people and it seemed to fit. Overall, I think the NPC thing is an issue and some solutions are coming down the line. Namely, we are seriously considering our next interaction to be PC only for the objectives (I would imagine NPC's would just be background noise). The complaints have been recognized and we are turning over ideas for it.

As for the fleeting thing, I've been involved on the conversation. I think this row of invasions has worn everyone out, including the One Sith and myself. I sign on and do my job, or it feels like it anyway, and then I go back to the real world to escape. It should be the opposite way around, but alas, these things are works in progress. Arcis has been busy with real life stuff. Not an excuse, just simple reasoning. The OS are not against good story telling. We are not just interested in winning, despite the claims. We are not zerging people. We, up until recently, have not complained about the magnitude of forces put against us and have just continued to move forward with writing and dealing. If I have had an issue, I've communicated with others to resolve it.

Overall, I think threads like this don't really help the situation because communication isn't relayed to other writers (unless we have alts). In the future, I would like to see more proactive actions taken with communication. Instead of just getting upset about things and letting things fester without solution.

P.S. As for Prakith, if you aren't involved, I would ask for people to not comment on what they have heard (and I don't appreciate the negative insinuation about factory sub interpretation, as those allegations are false and have been proven to be false). Because, as of right now, I don't even feel it's jumped from the cradle in action and I, for the most part, have viewed it positively in what is occurring. There was an issue with a strafing process, but that's been handled.

 

[Veino Garn]

Yeah, I'd agree. Invasions are exhausting, especially two at once.

 

[Kamon's OOC]

[member="Relit Vandal"]
I won't comment further on Prakith, but I talk regularly to the factory sub creator so I know what does go on with that.

As for the other, 26,000 isn't too much by itself, but at the same time we're being told we can't bring in troops, and when someone rallies the wookies (albeit a bit too many) on a planet of, as you mentioned, 45 million wookies, they get called out on it. Sure if he'd drummed it down some instead of the 200k it would have helped, I admit (even though in reality 200,000 wookies being able to fight is not out of the question given the overall planetary population and the fact that they're world is being invaded), but it just feels a bit much when there are that many being thrown everywhere. I don't think a single battle in the movies, ground wise, involved that many troops, did it (numbers are difficult to find for the battles, I'll admit, as I've been trying to no avail so far)?

In general I don't mind NPC's, and I think they should be used in order to be realistic, but I think limitations need to be made prior to the invasion. I'm fine being outnumbered, that's a reasonable assumption when we're being attacked, just not so severely outnumbered that we get curb stomped by NPC's. I know a lot of people have dropped out on our side just because of the oppressiveness of the NPC forces. There has to be a balance and preordained limitations are the key to that, I think.

As for this thread in general, I think it lets people get out their frustrations and helps the faction staff to determine what kind of negotiations need to take place the next time an invasion comes around (NPC negotiations for example). They're not without their fruits. If we don't communicate the issues we have, the issues never get resolved, and sometimes the issues are beyond the process of simple PM's, but need to be taken care of prior to a thread even starting. These threads do have their benefits.

 

[Seraphina Shel'tah]

[member="Relit Vandal"]

I want to apologize for the way I approached this in the other thread, and I want to be clear in stating what exactly it is that I was unhappy about with the invasion(s) / NPC interactions. Invasion force numbers don't cause me distress, not knowing a calculation on what to expect for numbers is what causes stress for me.

If it were to be clearly stated looking something like this within the negotiations:

Belligerents alotted 75,000 NPC forces
Determining Circumstances: Months of RP preparation, Surprise attack.

Defenders alotted: 45,000 NPC forces
Determining Circumstances: Unaware of Invasion, No Republic Outposts.

I would literally be ecstatic. I get stressed out when it simply feels like there is no end to the NPCs and they are being used more to just crush the opposition than to add story. That's my one and only issue aside from multiple simultaneous invasions. So again, I apologize for the manner I addressed it previously.

 

[Corvus Raaf]

I'll start by saying that a week's a long time in politics but four days is a heck of a long time on CHAOS.

That's how many days ago I opened this thread. We've done them before and they work well. You tell us what's going well and we should do more of any what's working less well and you'd like us to look at. Are we going too fast or too slow for example.

Where my insight over the last few days is coming from is looking at my own opening post. I started by saying that I didn't get NPC forces. Now I'm not going to say that I suddenly do, but having sat in on a few debates over them, I can now appreciate how much work goes into creating them and something else too.

They are an additional element to the Invasion. They don't replace PvP but they add depth and flavour. So me for one won't roll my eyes when I see them used next time, I'll most likely take a look at what someone has done to create something for MY enjoyment that I've previously overlooked.

And I've also discovered an interesting continuum. On one end is a PC killing the NPC horde with a single stroke. At the other end is the NPC killing the PC. Neither option is sensible. The NPC creators (as a rule) do it to give us something to challenge us. We take a short while, appreciate the work that has gone in and generally the PC triumphs. But give the creator credit and give the creature more than a single swing of the lightsaber before moving on.

Next time around, I intend to give the guy that put the effort it some thanks - by interacting with them. I'd do the same for another writer, so where's the difference?

You see, I for one like this thread. It can be very, very useful. It's all about perspective.

 

[Uri Aureleos]

[member="Relit Vandal"] [member="T-Eya Carn"]

45 million angry wookiees on the planet getting their home invaded and some how WE are out numbered? Hmmmm...

I agree with both of you on the matter of this thread

Allow me to explain: Threads like these aren't good if we are bashing our enemies and calling them cheaters. Which in this case is not so. We are expressing our feeling of the match feeling/being one sided in away with the mass of enemy NPC. Talking amongst ourselves first before telling the enemy is probably for the best. People tend to get defensive when they aren't on the same page.

For example the slicing the Chiss only gave us 5 hrs to counter in. We called him out and OS defended that enough time was given. (If you work and 8 hr shift and go to work an hr before his first post you don't get off in time to counter. Soooo yeah I still don't agree but whatever.) In the OOC thread there are 3 and a half to 4 pages of arguing over his quick slice. If you tell them you think they have too many NPCs then the same will happen again. Nothing will be solved unless heads are clear and on straight.

 

[Kamon's OOC]

I agree with what Uri said. Cryax is a pretty chill dude, but in this case they worked way too fast and had things sliced before some of us could even figure out what was going on. If you're going to hack into a major network I think that network should be considered almost the same way a PC is: you should give a certain amount of time between posts to allow people that play slicers to digest what's happened and react.

Another gripe I have is with the overuse of the Yuuzhan Vong and their technology. The fact that they are basically immune to the spores now makes them tough enough as it is, but their technology is being revamped constantly as well to the point where even when we make something to try and counter them, a counter is made to our counter. I also despise how dovin basals are used as the end all counter to everything. Vong aren't invincible, but on this board they are played as such which is highly unfair to those of us who fight against them.

Gigantic beasts are bad enough, but gigantic beasts mixed with vong tech is just ridiculous.

 

[Relit Vandal]

[member="T-Eya Carn"] No one said you couldn't bring in troops. No one said that...ever. In fact, after I spoke with [member="Kiyron"] about the troops, it all made sense and we were squared away for him to deploy. Once again echoing the need for more communication. It's never about the number, it's about how it's done and the speed of it.

As for the Vong: They are canon. If you really dive into their tech, they have some pretty blatant weaknesses that have been used against them. The pollen is the lowest hanging fruit but there are more where that came from if you just take the time to look for it. A counter is made to counter things because that is how wars are won. But the Jedi are capable of this too and quite frankly, I would like to see a lot more technical and biological weapons brought up to combat the Vong (I'm personally surprised to see the resurgence of the YVH-1 only start now, though I think it could use some updating, programming wise). The street runs both ways. I will say this though...if Vong are so invincible, then why has Rev lost over 6,000 of his vong and over half his vongbeasts? Sacrifices were made to overtake that stronghold in such ways.

[member="Seraphina Shel'tah"]: Yes, I agree with that.
[member="Corvus Raaf"]:

[member="Uri Aureleos"]: There were a number of issues with that 200k wookiee issue and frankly, I don't know why it continues to be brought up (if you would like to discuss that, despite the fact that we haven't been openly complaining about it, then please feel free to pm about it). The question on troops came from an issue with the deployment of 28,000k that SEEMED at the time to be just shot into the battlefield. That was a mistake on our part and we rectified that. I, a faction admin, spoke to Kiyron about it and got it squared away.

As for the splicing, I can't comment on that. Because I literally have no idea how it works.

I will concede that this specific thread is helpful for things, so long as people are alright with many rebutting without perceiving it as argumentative...which no one has done yet .

 

[Kian Karr]

Two things I'd like to touch on. I hope you don't mind [member="Corvus Raaf"], but I'm going to borrow your soap box.

The first is the fact that NPCs can add a lot to a story. I love having NPCs to help aid the story of Kian's development and to help visualize where he is and what is going on. Additionally, they make it more "realistic" as in a battlefield such as this, we would be surrounded by enemy soldiers and by our own. Where things start to get contentious, as far as I've observed, is in the fact that there isn't any regulation of the NPCs initially, meaning that neither side really knows what is going to happen with them in regards to numbers. If, as part of the invasion discussions, we began to include a discussion of reasonable NPC numbers, or putting in place a size cap of the defending and invading forces, I wholeheartedly believe many of these issues will fade away (but I make no guarantee of other issues not popping up! ).

The second point I'd like to make is that I have noticed a "we vs them" mentality as of late. I think it important to remember that while we are enemies in the story, we are not enemies! We are a group of rather fantastic people who have come together for the enjoyment of writing/story development and RPing. Since we are developing stories, it is necessary for us to remember that we are all in this together. If we have an issue, we can reach across the sphere of influence and discuss it with the other side. I have had two different people come to me throughout the past invasion to ask for clarification or to ask that I edit something. We had civil conversations and resolved the issue. We can't assume the other side isn't going to want to resolve the issue, because they want the story as much as we do!

 

[Bubák]

Invasions are fun, but it's up to the players how much fun they make it not only for themselves, but for each other. I admit I've had some bad luck in most of the invasions when I encountered people from both OS/Pubs who admitted they are not doing it for fun/story, but to win at all cost and get promoted faster. That was not always the case, of course; [member="Kian Karr"] and I had an excellent duel. We did not know which of our characters would get defeated, yet we did not even need to shoot PM to each other very often. The fight was very fun! There were other duels between my chars and someone else's like that, but that one is pretty memorable as I don't remember any problems with it.

So yeah; there are players who will write a great story with you even if you don't communicate with them. There are players who will make a cool story, though there will be some things that need to be clarified over PMs. There are players who will hear you out, offer their opinion, and create an excellent story. And there are players who don't care about anything but winning. It is very much about luck which kind you'll encounter.

That's my opinion on this.

 

[Kamon's OOC]

[member="Relit Vandal"]
I'm not saying everyone does that and I'm not going to name names, but I have noticed the tech being used in ways that are powergamey/metagamey. It's not something I've been on the receiving end of, personally (at least not recently), but I have read it. I didn't report it because it's not my place since the interaction doesn't involve me. But I've known people to get quite upset at their hard work being discounted just because of some vong related reason.

I wasn't aware the troop thing was squared away, so I apologize for pressing that. I got a bit miffed when someone was telling us we couldn't deploy troops that weren't wookies, but that's whatever.

Realistically I think this could all be resolved in future threads by simply planning an allowable NPC number for each side, that way it doesn't turn into a match of "who brings the most troops" but rather who uses them best.

 

[Tydeus of Tion]

NPCs?

Say it with me people.

Two hundred thousand angry wookiees.