Feedback Invasion Relief Months

[Ryv]

snip

Certain opinions should be devalued.

EDIT: Before any gets upset, I am pointing specifically at the bandaids meant to spare other's feelings/inability to accept defeat. Not opinions dedicated to bettering the system as a whole.

 

[Ezra D. Tavlar]

Kyra Perl

The suggestions in themselves are not bad things, nor does calling them band-aids devalue the small contributions.

The issue is this is a wider issue which requires a large, functional, interwoven fix to address problems which stem from a single source. Many different separate fixes onto one large issue leads to more problems down the line.

Hence the term: band-aid.

You can keep applying bandaids onto the big cut but eventually it's still going to get infected.

ok. <3

 

[Ria Misrani]

I'm all for a story, and yeah stories are cool - it's cool to make them with your friends.

But man, even your friends need a break. Why is it so bad for them to just hey, take a break.

And please stop throwing around BUT THE CANONICAL GUYS DIDN'T GET TO TAKE A BREAK.

Yeah okay, they weren't like being written individually by a community of people who want to come here and have fun. If writing invasions is your thing and that's what you and your homies wanna do? Hey, I'm down for that, but that does not give you the right to make anyone else feel invalidated or that they HAVE TO do something simply because you want them to. Nor does that give you the right to tell them HEY YOU SIGNED UP TO GET TRASHED YOU'RE GONNA DO THIS BECAUSE I SAID SO.

Yeah, you're right we should all be more open to working with one another.

We should all be up here talking about how to make our stories better, but hey those stories? Those paint by numbers hexes? People might feel a kinda way, and you don't get the right to tell them how they should feel. Nor do you get to say how they should act, just like no one gets to tell you the same. So yeah, feel free to keep arguing about how factions should be punished for x, y, and z. Keep on' keep on' brothers and sisters.

Let's get this out in the open now.

Yeah, these are band-aids to a bigger issue, but if you don't apply the band-aid the bleeding keeps going, it gets worse.

I just feel like, it's not a bad thing if people - a group of people just want a break. This isn't a group of professionals, these are just people tryin' to kick loose in a really weird fan fiction hobby that almost no one else will understand outside this community. We can get back to waving our glow sticks in each other's faces at a later date. Life gets in the way, these breaks can help with that.

 

[Irveric Tavlar]

I don't get it....everyone is discussing Invasion Burnout, meaning there's too much invasioning going on....and are saying no to a Month or two of no invasions....then go on to say no faction should be safe so make it a mandate ...so a faction is safe....am I only the one seeing the redundancy with this? A invasion free month means NO ONE gets invaded....and narratives can be planned and built with more focus...
Idk, to be against something that benefits EVERYONE with no negatives to it other than thirsty writers can't thirst seems....obvious of what I'm implying.
You can't invade that month? Doesn't effect your narrative at all, does NOT stop your narrative, it only slows it down. And gives everyone a breather. Dominions can still be done, faction threads can still be done, anything that can continue the narrative outside PvP can be done....and there's plenty of background noise that happens during war that can be wrote about....

What you're seeing is everyone acknowledging the same problem but disagreeing on the solution. People AGAINST an invasion free month are not PRO invasion burnout because just like Ezra D. Tavlar this is a bandaid to the issue, not the solution. Imo things like diplomacy rules should be fleshed out like in the suggestions made by Darth Metus and Ellie Mors so that way theres mechanical ways to avoid war. As I stated earlier you shouldnt be able to shoulder completely on arbitrary mechanics to avoid war. If you want to avoid invasions then do real life Nations do.

Diplomacy. Mechanics should be added in to cede territory more effectively than the ol doms-with-extra-steps that are Diplo threads. Or maybe if everyone knows you have big friends, they won't invade you. And what does diplomacy do? Create a narrative of multiple factions interacting with each other instead of just closing the blinds. AGAIN the system has issues that need to be fleshed out, adding the pause button won't serve to do anything but stagnate the board as a whole if its taken advantage of.

 

[Kyra Perl]

Certain opinions should be devalued.

EDIT: Before any gets upset, I am pointing specifically at the bandaids meant to spare other's feelings/inability to accept defeat. Not opinions dedicated to bettering the system as a whole.

Kyra Perl

The suggestions in themselves are not bad things, nor does calling them band-aids devalue the small contributions.

The issue is this is a wider issue which requires a large, functional, interwoven fix to address problems which stem from a single source. Many different separate fixes onto one large issue leads to more problems down the line.

Hence the term: band-aid.

You can keep applying bandaids onto the big cut but eventually it's still going to get infected.

ok. <3

im afraid i loosely phrased my fear, and in doing so i took a phrase you meant one way and used it my way. I'm sorry! I hear you and it feels like you understood me back.

Thanks for reflecting that you heard me, even when it sounded like I heard you all wrong.

seems we used it different ways! Mb
ok <3

 

[Ezra D. Tavlar]

np.

ok

<3 Kyra Perl

 

[The Red of Sinner]

What you're seeing is everyone acknowledging the same problem but disagreeing on the solution. People AGAINST an invasion free month are not PRO invasion burnout because just like Ezra D. Tavlar this is a bandaid to the issue, not the solution. Imo things like diplomacy rules should be fleshed out like in the suggestions made by Darth Metus and Ellie Mors so that way theres mechanical ways to avoid war. As I stated earlier you shouldnt be able to shoulder completely on arbitrary mechanics to avoid war. If you want to avoid invasions then do real life Nations do.

Diplomacy. Mechanics should be added in to cede territory more effectively than the ol doms-with-extra-steps that are Diplo threads. Or maybe if everyone knows you have big friends, they won't invade you. And what does diplomacy do? Create a narrative of multiple factions interacting with each other instead of just closing the blinds. AGAIN the system has issues that need to be fleshed out, adding the pause button won't serve to do anything but stagnate the board as a whole if its taken advantage of.

That does make sense but not everyone is going to use those new mechanics because not everyone cares about it.

But you definitely shouldn't be comparing real life with a fan fiction site...an invasion free month wouldn't hurt anyone. You can still get the narratives from what happens between battles (invasions).

 

[Argis Volmir]

Ria Misrani

You're more than free to take a break, that's not the issue here. The main thing I'm saying is if you choose to take that break you also shouldn't be able to gain from it.

So let's say someone takes this if it becomes a mandate and they're in the middle of being invaded while still being able to Dom? Well guess what in 30 days they can just redom those hexes and feel safe because people hate losing territory. Which let's not lie to ourselves this is most likely the way it would be used.

So in short if all you cared about was a break and, and recouping why are you worried about regaining/acquiring territory? Hell let's say we take out the hex regression and say you just can't Dom. There you go plenty of time to recoup and focus on stories.

Also I'm not telling them how to feel, but I am saying they do need to reevaluate their priorities if a map becomes the big thing in their life. Because just like any hobby delving too much into it and becoming too attached is bad for you. I've never hidden that, and that's just how I feel about Chaos. Too many people get so up in their feelings because they're being invaded, they think someone's slighting them, someone doesn't like their idea, ect... I don't give AF if people don't like me for saying this or if they think I'm mean. They'll either get over it or go to their discords and whine about it. Makes me no nevermind.

 

[Ezra D. Tavlar]

I think the point is, is that if you need some time off from an invasion, you probably shouldn't be putting yourself in a position of getting, well, invaded. Hard. But it circles back to the overall big issue in any case. Band-aids applied to a wound don't actually heal it.

You could argue, switch to diplomacy

>> but diplomacy also needs a fix.

And then we come full circle. What we need is a staple gun, some sutures and a bottle of antiseptic. The Red of Sinner

 

[Alkor Centaris]

I'm gonna play devil's advocate and say no here.

Go Major, deal with consequences.

Turn and burn, baby.

 

[Irveric Tavlar]

That does make sense but not everyone is going to use those new mechanics because not everyone cares about it.

But you definitely shouldn't be comparing real life with a fan fiction site...an invasion free month wouldn't hurt anyone. You can still get the narratives from what happens between battles (invasions).

Hence why I'm endorsing leaving the solution to the IC side instead of a game mechanic and/or provide mechanic benefits to interacting diplomatically. Want to avoid war? Maybe take some diplomatic steps to avoid it, thus drumming up narrative for you faction and likely others.

 

[Daiya]

Argis Volmir

If it must be a mandate, this feels like the most fair.

No invasions or being invaded for mandate period.
No dominions for same mandate period.

Nothing gained, nothing lost.

Seems a bit more than what Valiens' initial question is asking for, btw. Would you want it to auto-expire after 60 days (the minimum mandate period) and not be able to be chosen consecutively? That also seems fair.

If people like the mandate approach, I can't fault them for it, nor can I disagree with suspending dominions during that same time. Territory stays static, faction members get a breather, and story can focus on whatever the faction wants at the time instead of at risk of being controlled by an unplanned invasion.

We're here to tell a story in an escapist fictional setting. If we can help strike a good balance between our reality as human writers (mental health is important!), and the fantasy we're writing in, then I'm down for that.

 

[Ellie Mors]

.. Don't we already force everyone to not do invasions in December?

And sure, invasion fatigue is 'real', but that's kind of the price of being a major faction and existing in a role which collects enemies. Members of a faction that feel fatigued by an invasion don't necessarily need to take part in the next one, and factions that feel overwhelmed by them can do things like change their mandate to skirt away from whoever is invading them, or any number of things.

The reason an invasion relief period never came up as a suggestion is because we want invasions to have a larger impact than they do now in a tangible way, not to reduce how often they can happen so it feels like they matter more.

 

[Ryv]

That does make sense but not everyone is going to use those new mechanics because not everyone cares about it.

But you definitely shouldn't be comparing real life with a fan fiction site...an invasion free month wouldn't hurt anyone. You can still get the narratives from what happens between battles (invasions).

I'm gonna go ahead and assume you play games, Mr. Sin. Maybe its video games like World of Warcraft or Fallen order. Maybe you like board games like Diplomacy, Axis and Allies, or Pandemic. Maybe, maybe, you play tabletop roleplaying games, like Dungeons and Dragons, Fate Core, Pathfinder, or any other of the NUMEROUS options out there.

When you play something like Fallen Order, you buy into a single-player experience. You knowingly agree to play a game dedicated to a specific story, using a specific set of rules, that lead to a predetermined outcome regardless of what you, the player, decide. World of Warcraft, though different considering the many options it provides you, the player, the outcome is still the same. The dungeons have loot, the stories have an end, and your character has a max level. These games are cool, cause they are defined to bring the player into a narrative they don't particularly change.

Let's take a look at them there board games, partner. Diplomacy, Betrayal at House on the Hill, Axis and Allies, Hearts of Iron, Risk, Pandemic, Catan... all these games have mechanics you also buy into, but these games are far more free form. You pick roles, characters, powers, places, locations, whatever. You then approach this game utilizing what skills you have and play the game. Some of these games see benefit from working cooperatively, some from being antagonistic towards one another. In some of these games, you determine how you approach the board, as long as its within the rules. You can outsmart, outplay, and beat your opponents. You can prove yourself the better of that encounter. Awesome, great, mechanics are there, you can choose to engage them, nice.

TTRPGs are kinda like a mixture of both these games. D&D is a pretty diverse game, with five editions, all using differing rules, with more content than you can use in your lifetime. When you make your character, you can choose to ignore things like multi-classing, flanking, feats, and other optional rules. Or? Or! You can adopt those rules into your game and add EVEN MORE CONTENT. If a game master decides to do this, it often affects the entirety of the table. Folks not interested in multi-classing may have to play with a character who is multi-classing. That puts player A, the dude not into the multi-class into a weird spot. Will the game still be fun? Why don't they like it in the first place? What can be done to ensure they can still enjoy the game? Lots of funky weirdo questions. Sometimes, player A can't have fun if player B multi-classes. That just means they shouldn't play together, and player A, since he's the guy having an issue, might have to step away.

When it comes to a collaborative environment, you gotta work together. If the masses are saying, for example, better diplo threads are better for the board, even if one group is staunchly against using them, they should still be put into place.

The difference between invasions, burnout, and stuff like new diplo rules?

Consequences.

Consequences add drama, drama adds tension, tension adds flair, and flair creates the story. If every major can just opt-out of danger and drama, even if for a short time, it can literally grind narrative across the board down to a complete stop. While some mechanics need to be changed, others, such as the dangers of choosing to be a big name on the board, need to stay. It keeps that much-needed tension, which makes the stories worth telling, regardless of how loud the Old Guard cry out against it.

 

[Argis Volmir]

Daiya

It may be more than what the original question was for but I'm me, people still gonna get the buckshot on my opinion anyways.

Hey I leave it up to the rest of the peanut gallery if it expires after 60 days or can be picked consecutively. I'd say if they want to keep it that's fine but the same thing would apply of no Dominions for however long they have it.

I'm just here to stop people from focusing so much on the map game, and have more fun in telling the stories instead of clinging to the map like a clingy ex. Plus I'm always an advocate of IRL first over this and if someone gets too deep or attached to take a break.

 

[Ellie Mors]

And can we stop pointing fingers at this mythical "old guard", the people throwing these labels around are as old as the people they're pointing at, and there's plenty of people who were around longer who don't share this "old guard" mentality I keep getting seen used as a label.

The real old guard wanted invasions that were dictated by PVP, multiple invasions that could be held at the same time, development threads that could allow factory/codex subs to be given more leeway in judgment. The old guard don't even "go here" anymore, there's people who were around in 2013/2014, but they/we/whoever aren't the people that older members know of as the actual "old guard". There's always going to be an older member than you who has a different set of views based on their initial experience with the site, disregarding an entire period of members because they've been around longer is just as detrimental to the conversation as whatever views you think they espouse are.

 

[Tathra Khaeus]

Haha Bryn go slam

But in all seriousness, No.

Making invasions matter more and making territory matter less is the way to go. Increasing the timer on respawn won't save the game if the gameplay is broken!

 

[Scherezade deWinter]

So let's say someone takes this if it becomes a mandate and they're in the middle of being invaded while still being able to Dom? Well guess what in 30 days they can just redom those hexes and feel safe because people hate losing territory. Which let's not lie to ourselves this is most likely the way it would be used.

Basically this. Relief months would be used to abuse the heck out of the system, not to mention that most factions won't need it really to begin with because invasions here aren't as busy as it sometimes looks during invasion season.

 

[Ryv]

Ellie Mors

Here's the thing, chieftain.

Time passes. The young grow old, the old grow decrepit, and the decrepit hopefully never come back.

Regardless of what you consider the Old Guard of your era would've wanted, new writers on the board who see faction owners clutching to territory to ensure the feelings of success they so violently strive for, see Old Guard. I've been here since 2015, you can argue I'm a part of this mythical Old Guard. And I think to some writers, they see how vehemently I ague against safety nets and think "this Old Guard mofo" and they wouldn't be wrong. But to the people putting their nose to the grindstone to stop narrative stagnation on this site, stagnation certain major faction teams facilitate, we see those old heads clutching to their h-hexes as Old Guard. That ain't gonna change.

People's actions see consequences and opinions in turn. If you perpetuate an Old Guard vibe, you're Old Guard.

I don't make the rules, I just run with it.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

Yes, let's keep posts on topic and productive folks.