Star Wars Roleplay: Chaos

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Making Invasions...Invasions

@[member="Darth Kentarch"]
That's why we have the Report button and RPJs. If that happens then it's going to get noticed and sorted out.

I think a 'no BDZ' rule would be necessary too. At least, not without both sides and an RPJ allowing it. Too much potential for griefing.
 

Lord Ghoul

Guest
L
For most invasions that involve fleets each leader will send the other leader the total length of all their ships. This is great for fleeting, but that is passed over when the ground erupts into the duel-fest. While personally I enjoy popping up behind padawans and going "boo!" with a telekinetic body slam, I think the ground solution is to follow after the fleeters.

- Each faction leader will pm the other the total troop number of their ground forces, as well as planetary defenses, armored vehicles etc. This assumes that players will actually pay attention to this.

The main issue imo is that a lot of the member base is younger. I'm not saying there aren't any Ender Wiggins out there, I just think it's silly to expect a 14 year old to know how to effectively run a squad of NPC soldiers, let alone know how to do amphib assaults, CQC Urban combat, etc. in large formations. Nor would I expect them to understand the factors behind why they would be winning or losing an engagement.
 
I know this has nothing to do with the objective talk, but I just got home from work, so here goes.

The idea for an Occupation thread is amazing for the invaders should they win. But it should be expanded to the defenders. If the Defenders win they have to do a rebuilding thread where they fix the planet from the damage of war. Earn the people back under their control. That sort of thing.
 
Krest said:
I know this has nothing to do with the objective talk, but I just got home from work, so here goes.

The idea for an Occupation thread is amazing for the invaders should they win. But it should be expanded to the defenders. If the Defenders win they have to do a rebuilding thread where they fix the planet from the damage of war. Earn the people back under their control. That sort of thing.

Aye, an expansion on what I said. Love it!
 
@[member="Cira"] @[member="Krest"]
Agreed, good idea! Call it an Aftermath thread then.

@[member="Mikhail Shorn"]
A simple points system would work here, 1 point (or whatever) = 10 soldiers = 2 tanks = 1 walker or something similar. That lets people have an idea of what they're facing and how it fits both with the battleground they're fighting on (walkers not so useful in a city as a plain) but it stops people magically producing an army from their ass.
 
I think my thoughts and opinions on an invasion over the years has been quite clear; I've never been a fan of them, and avoid them like the plague. The reason, which has already been clearly stated: invasions seem to be decided too much on 1 v 1 or 2 v 2 battles. Resources, assets and defences become arbitrary, because person x is far superior to an entire legion of NPC's.

Further complicating matters, is invasion threads seem to bring everyone out of the word work; characters whom have been absent for months or were created days ago, all of a sudden have key roles in these threads, despite not having enough posts to even have a signature (OBVIOUSLY, I am not saying post count or a persons signature has any bearing on a battle; but I fail to see how someone with 40 posts has truly fleshed out their character's story or role within a faction.) People whom have rarely, if ever been seen on a planet appear out of nowhere to save the day, and rush to their allies defence.

For a non-combatant like Patches, the pvp style of an invasion thread offers little appeal. I could flesh out RP's where I have scouted locations, hacked defense systems, sliced networks or gained the codes to take down planetary shields, but it's all for naught. It often has little bearing on the battle, if any, as someone always appears to have the counter move (The back up shield appears out of nowhere, the counter codes entered, or someone whom has never RP'd having any slicing experience, gains access to a console remotely, and undoes everything an experienced slicer has done in two posts!). PVP is everything in these threads, with planning, strategy and objectives taking a back seat.

Both sides make assumptions of the others forces, and defences / forces that have never been seen before appear out of nowhere; the attackers decide the defenders target x is some valuable target, while the defenders believe if they take down attackers y, the planet will be saved! It's too neat and pretty for my tastes, as we all know a single objective rarely, if ever yields victory; multiple steps must be taken to achieve victory, not just a single one.

Things I would see changed, in order to make them more appealing to someone like me:

-Clear, defined planetary defences; Not every planet has a shield generator, or a fleet of ships with hundreds of thousands of troops; there isn't always a fleet to come save the day that's just a short hyperspace jump away. Some planets only have a few forces to spare, a few ships and a base or two. Sorry, but it's a sad fact; valuable targets are protected like fort knox, lesser valuable targets are protected like an ATM at a convenience store.

-Actual RP's fleshing out details (to Kira's point) of strategy, rallying troops etc. to your cause, planning an attack, and those plans and their executions actually bearing some weight on the outcome; not any plans or strategies lasting all of 20 posts before going out the window due to PVP matches.

-I would better structure factions defenses of planets. Why is it always the same people attacking and defending planets all throughout the galaxies. Do these people not have lives? Other obligations? Or is their whole lifes purpose is to sit at a console, wait for an invasion, and teleport to the battle? I would have "planets defenders" or some system put in place, where characters are listed in charge of a planets defence. i.e. Tatooine defence is headed by Bob as the sectors General, with Jamie as the planets fleet Admiral, Colonel Jennifer in charge of Ground Forces, with Joe, Mark and Cassandra also serving key roles (squadron leader, etc). These people could be listed in key roles on several planets (limit of 3 or 5 per character?), but they can't be everywhere at once. That invasion not taking place on your planet? Guess you can catch the highlights. Might be tough, but it would limit the teleports. Each planet, depending on it's size, would be allowed a few "floaters" who just happened to be in the area, but within reason.

- To balance out the "limit" on defenders, first; defending is ALWAYS easier than attacking. Attackers rarely "Narrowly" take over a target. The old saying, "1,000 men can repel 10,000 at a good stronghold" applies. Sorry attackers, but defenders know the area better, are familiar with it, and have their defenses already in place. You want that target, you aren't going to "narrowly" win it, you are going to have to spank the defenders (literally... if you are into that sort of thing ;) ). I would also set a restriction on the attackers as well in terms of numbers, as depending on the target, I sincerely doubt your are going to pull several fleets, leaving many undefended, and the governers of several planets leave their post to attack Endor.

-Limit non-faction interference (which is already done to some extent, and should continue; perhaps just review how this is done, and see if changes need to be made).


Post counts should have little bearing; anyone can flood a thread with posts, and at the end of the day, who really cares who owns the planet? We are all writers here, and I would like to see a change where the story becomes more important to the writers, instead of who wins or looses.
 
@[member="Jonathon Patches"]
You've said it all perfectly.

I think a cool feature could be that the defender initially starts off with few people on the planet, but more arrive as time goes on. It'll take some balancing, but surely not all these people just happen to be on Hoth?! That's what a defender's preparation thread can be for too.

Most of all what I'd love to see is the two faction leaders and an assigned neutral RPJ working together to sort out all these details together, with the RPJ taking the lead where necessary to make sure things are fare.

Invasions are great in concept, but in reality are very underwhelming.
 
There are not enough likes for @[member="Jonathon Patches"]. I've never been in an invasion thread, but if it was set up like that, I would jump in it in a heartbeat. (As a note Krest is the Warden of Tatooine via the CIS's Templar setup. Defender of the planet and all that. If the idea for defenders becomes more common place among the other fractions, I will smile till I can't anymore.)
 
So, just taking the prelude and aftermath threads into account, this is a possible revision. Interested in input/suggestions/corrections, especially to the wording. New bits in orange.


[SIZE=11pt]Before an Invasion begins, Faction Leaders must convene to discuss how the Invasion will be handled by both sides to account for fairness and balance. If a compromise cannot be reached please consult a Role-play Judge.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]In order to begin an Invasion the attacking faction must complete a ‘Prelude Thread’ in their faction forum where the plans and objectives of the invasion are discussed, forces are gathered, and characters assigned. Participation is not compulsory but is suggested, especially for characters commanding NPCs or in leadership roles. This Prelude thread must be at least 50 posts. The defenders may also do a Prelude thread, though there is no post limit for them.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]At any point, a Major Faction may “invade” another Major Faction's occupied planet provided that the attackers have completed the prelude thread. This involves one Major Faction's members fighting for control of the planet against another Major Faction's members.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]The winning faction must meet all minimum requirements in order to declare victory.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]1. The thread must have a minimum total of 100 posts between both factions.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]2. Both factions must have a minimum of 5 members per side. If either faction cannot meet this requirement within 72 hours of the beginning of the invasion, that faction forfeits.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Once an Invasion nears its completion, the Major Faction Leaders involved in the Invasion must convene with each other and decide on the victor. If a decision cannot be made, a Roleplay Judge must be privately contacted and he/she will make the final decision.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Once the Invasion has been decided the winner (attacker or defender) must undertake an ‘Aftermath Thread’ where they consolidate their victory. This thread has a minimum of 50 posts, and the Invasion is not officially completed until this thread is also done.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]A Major Faction may only begin one invasion at a time and may not start another until the original invasion is completed and judged, and the aftermath thread is also complete.[/SIZE]
If people can agree on the first stage we can work on hashing out the more complex and divisive parts later.
 
Jonathon Patches said:
-I would better structure factions defenses of planets. Why is it always the same people attacking and defending planets all throughout the galaxies. Do these people not have lives? Other obligations? Or is their whole lifes purpose is to sit at a console, wait for an invasion, and teleport to the battle? I would have "planets defenders" or some system put in place, where characters are listed in charge of a planets defence. i.e. Tatooine defence is headed by Bob as the sectors General, with Jamie as the planets fleet Admiral, Colonel Jennifer in charge of Ground Forces, with Joe, Mark and Cassandra also serving key roles (squadron leader, etc). These people could be listed in key roles on several planets (limit of 3 or 5 per character?), but they can't be everywhere at once. That invasion not taking place on your planet? Guess you can catch the highlights. Might be tough, but it would limit the teleports. Each planet, depending on it's size, would be allowed a few "floaters" who just happened to be in the area, but within reason.
My one point of dissension. I'm not a fan of anything that limits potential participation in a thread so broadly. Restrictions on participation, maybe, but out right saying "You can't participate because of X" just doesn't sit well with me at all.

That all said, planetary defenses do tend to get steamrolled/ignored unfairly by the attackers nine times out of ten. I personally find it a better, more engaging story when people actually interact with the environment of the field. A legion of battle droids stand between you and Sith Lord Poopenmire. What makes for the better story; ROFLhax0rstomping your way through the Legion in a single post, with no damage, to then throw your personal Wookiepedia list of Force powers at the Sith, or struggling to not die in an endless barrage of blaster fire, calling in a support air strike with reinforcements on the ground, letting the NPCs engage each other in stylistic combat, maybe taking a grazing blow, and then dueling with the Sith Lord Poopenmire on the central platform (He really ought to change his name, but no one's had the heart to tell him to.)
 
@[member="Jonathon Patches"]

Exactly right on focusing on story and the actual rp'ing than basically a we own moar planets naow deal. Thats what I did at Nar Shaddaa. I took a big loss; but had fun doing it. I'm sure if I wished I could of just pulled more forces from my magic hat. But where is the fun in that? My only regret is I kind of killed my faction, and subsequent revival attempts failed cause leaders didn't do much. I'm gona lead Black Sun back though. I've seen how the others failed. I've seen my own failures. This time, I at least have a chance to do this right.
 
I am rather new here and am still learning most of what you guys do here, but the one site I've been on who has had "Army vs Army" wars and done them with moderate success did things similarly to what @[member="Flint Dexen"] suggested. They would create a new sub-forum for the altercation and assign a number of battle zones(3-5 usually on the first wave depending on how many PCs were involved) that all took place at the same time. Each player character per army could only be assigned to one zone until all three threads were finished. From there they would re-draw the battle lines, assign new battle zones, and re-start the process until one army took enough strategical locations and were able to outright force the other army off the field or in this case the planet.

Inside the actual combat threads, separate from the characters, each side would have a "General" for the thread who would macromanage the NPC troops. The characters would have minimal influence over these npcs(for instance it was generally considered acceptable to just stab one if it made logical sense to do so, said person was not however allowed to run around wiping out whole squads or armies like a genocidal energizer bunny) but the person macromanaging the troops would ultimately be controlling their overall movements and the pace of the battle, forcing the characters to react to their PC opponents AND the macromanaged armies, allowing the people interested in the macro strategy to focus on it while letting the less interested focus on their characters in a war zone.

The problem was these wars tended to be incredibly lengthy, and I dunno how willing to tolerate long term engagements you guys are, but a similar set up would be easily compatible with Cira's suggestions(threads to set up defenses in battlezones for the defending army, troop allocation discussions, PC character placement, clean up efforts in the allotted battlezones, etc). The explanation I gave was somewhat rudimentary, but perhaps some food for thought.
 
@[member="Kobita"]
That’s some great ideas. As people know, I’ve been trying to get something like that together for ages, but the devil’s in the details. I might try again with a wholly RP’ed, no stat variation.
In any case, I think if it works out, it could form part of the objectives for an Invasion.

@[member="Ayden Cater"]
I completely agree. The trick is getting people to RP that way without turning it into a micromanagement hell for staff and players.
 

Moroi Wareyasui

Cocky Little Poohead
@[member="Tamara"]

In the example I gave, there was usually an overarching, neutral, moderator of sorts of the battle zones. The "Generals" on each side would more or less police the thread themselves and the neutral moderator would settle disputes. Every one in awhile someone would have to intervene because someone was being a tool, but for the most part people kept within logical limits after they realized no one(The moderator, Generals, random passerby) weren't going to put up with their crap.
 

Gilamar Skirata

The most important step is always the next one
Jonathon Patches said:
I sincerely doubt your are going to pull several fleets, leaving many undefended, and the governers of several planets leave their post to attack Endor.
And this is the IC reason the Sith Empire is gone (barring the OOC)
Good man, I agree with everything you said
 
OK, so as I see it we have two main aims here.

The first is to work out a basic set of rules I can submit to staff that add the prelude and aftermath threads. That's something I think is doable for a change very soon. In which case, my proposal above would be going before staff. If there are any additions or changes needed to it, please speak now.

The longer term goal of adding objectives, fleeting and land battles to Invasions requires more work. How do we incorporate these into Invasions? Do we go the objectives route or something else?
 
In dominions I've seen that you have goals that you need to RP out. The fraction sets them themselves and rp out completing them correct? Why not have the two fraction leaders come together OOCly and figure out the objectives.

Like A (Attackers) have to destroy D (Defenders) shield generator. D would of course have to prevent A from succeeding. When/if A succeeds, they move onto another objective and try to complete it with D trying to stop it.

Above it was mentioned that D would clearly have the advantage. Make it so A has to win three objectives in order to capture the planet, but D only has to stop them once to win. @[member="Tamara"]
 

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