Making Invasions...Invasions

[Jonathon Patches]

My one point of dissension. I'm not a fan of anything that limits potential participation in a thread so broadly. Restrictions on participation, maybe, but out right saying "You can't participate because of X" just doesn't sit well with me at all.

I was over simplifying things; I wouldn't want to outright restrict people from joining. If anyone wants to join, that's all well and good, but there should be a system put in place to prevent the "mass warping" of people to this otherwise insignificant planet all of a sudden.

What if, instead of limiting a factions participation, we altered the current restriction? As it stands now, a faction may only initiate one invasion at a time, and cannot initiate another until that one reaches a conclusion. How about a CHARACTER may only be involved in ONE invasion at time (this applies to both attackers and defenders; can't be two places at once!)?

Think about it; If Jonathon Patches, leader of the Free Scoundrels wanted to lead his rag tag crew into an invasion of let's say, Corellia...

Should someone attack his controlled planet of Velusia, himself, and any of his people attacking Corellia, are unable to defend said planet, because they are halfway across the galaxy in another battle. Why? He can't be in two places at once! Now Patches and his force is left with a dilemma; continue the invasion of Corellia and hope whatever able bodies in his faction are able to defend it, or pull his forces back, and rush to the defense of Velusia!

It adds an element of RISK to initiating an invasion, as you leave other worlds more vulnerable. Is someone going to counterattack? The very faction you are attacking, perhaps? Or perhaps another faction will seize an opportunity... People will think twice about invading others, and while it may result in LESS invasion threads overall, it may result in better planning, more coordination, and more participation from the members.

 

[Malice Draclau]

I love these ideas. I always hated how takeovers are decided by big battles between a few people. I'd much prefer scouring the planets taking key locations to force the enemy into submission, or the defenders luring the enemy into a false sene of victory then trapping them on the planet forcing a surrender.

 

[Fatty]

I enjoy reading these ideas, especially patches last idea there.

I like it especially because most nations in my opinion do not invade one territory at a time. Wars are fought on multiple battle fronts all at the same time. If you have the resources to spare to engage in more than one attack you should be allowed to, and the number of people participating should be determined by where they are at the time of attack.

Which is why I think time should be introduced into invasions, as there is such a thing as sieges and blockades that last for months or even years. So for example, in Invasion A Commander 1 decides to help in the invasion of Planet x, then Commander 2 sees opportunity to Invade Commander 1's planet y. The amount of time to take planet x, may not be equal to the amount if time to take planet y. Thus if time is agreed upon by both sides of the conflict, Commander 1 maybe able to RP himself engaging in Invasion B even if Invasion A has not yet been completed OOC, if that makes any sense.


That was probably confusing and broken, but I'm not writing at full capacity because I'm on an IPad.


I also think rebellions would also happen more naturally if there was an occupation thread, or a number of them depending on how resistant the planet is.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

@[member="Jonathon Patches"]
This is what happened during the Manaan/Korriban Invasions.

My preference would be if you want to take part as an attacker you have to write yourself either arriving in the system or arriving on the planet, rather than just teleporting into the battle.

 

[Aeron Zambrano]

In dominions I've seen that you have goals that you need to RP out. The fraction sets them themselves and rp out completing them correct? Why not have the two fraction leaders come together OOCly and figure out the objectives.

I am definitely seconding this thought. I think it would also solve a lot of the issues that I, and it seems other writers, worry about, as explained so well by Jonathon Patches:

For a non-combatant like Patches, the pvp style of an invasion thread offers little appeal. I could flesh out RP's where I have scouted locations, hacked defense systems, sliced networks or gained the codes to take down planetary shields, but it's all for naught. It often has little bearing on the battle, if any, as someone always appears to have the counter move (The back up shield appears out of nowhere, the counter codes entered, or someone whom has never RP'd having any slicing experience, gains access to a console remotely, and undoes everything an experienced slicer has done in two posts!). PVP is everything in these threads, with planning, strategy and objectives taking a back seat.

I know I'm new to this particular site and therefore haven't participated in any invasions yet, but I have taken part in similar things on other RP's and the above suggestions are VERY appealing in comparison to things I've seen in the past on other sites. If objectives were set like we see in Dominions, it would give defined events that players would have to flesh out and see through to the end. Objectives and the plans put forth in a prelude thread would have to be seen through, and non-combatant characters would have a real, important role in the invasion. This leads to more active participation and more creative objectives in order to take/defend the planet, and most importantly: a REALLY fun story to write and read and share with each other, watching each faction scramble to reach their objectives which go so far beyond PvP.

I also think @[member="Krest"]'s idea of requiring the Attacking group to complete one more objective is a great one. If the Attackers truly have their stuff together they'll be able to surmount an extra goal and win the invasion fair and square, while still giving the Defenders the advantage they would have naturally.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

As far as objectives go, I would have each Invasion have 5 objectives. If a separate forum was created for invasions, each would be a separate thread or else they would all be in a single thread.
RPJs and faction staff can increase the number, but it's suggested they not decrease it.

1. Objective 1: General objective. This is set at some landmark or setting on the planet decided by the faction leaders. It is contested by PVP in the standard Invasion method.
2. Objective 2: General objective. This is set at some landmark or setting on the planet decided by the faction leaders. It is contested by PVP in the standard Invasion method.
3. Objective 3: (Optional) Special Objective. If faction leaders desire some sort of special type of objective, such as an espionage mission, escort or rescue, this objective will be used. If this is not done, it becomes a standard objective.
4. Objective 4: (Optional) A space battle in orbit. This battle would be fleeting with rules and forces decided by the faction leaders and RPJ. If fleeting is not going to be used, this becomes a standard objective.
5. Objective 5: (Optional) A ground battle. This battle would be a surface battle with rules and forces decided by the faction leaders and RPJ. If it is decided that armies are not going to be used, this becomes a standard objective.

They key point about this is that if the faction leaders decide they don't want any fleeting, armies or special missions (Invasions as they are now), the amount of Objectives can be reduced if required.
The attacker must win more objectives than the defender, if the defender has equal or more objective victories, the attack is defeated.

This allows for a lot of flexibility, allowing factions to work out the invasion plan prior so everyone knows what's happening where.

 

[Darth Ferus]

Unless there are an even amount of objectives that doesn't provide much of an advantage to defenders. Which is my only issue with it, sense either side would have to win the majority of objectives in order to win on an odd number of objectives. If there was more objectives, the majority for attackers versus = or more for defenders would make sense.

I'd say if the Defenders win two objectives in a row the Attackers have to make a regroup thread and basically try again. Or something.

 

[Arumi Zy]

A lot of good ideas.

The first thing i think is making NPCs and the battle at large into something meaningful. What good are having AT-ATs and 6 battalions of heavy infantry if Lord Stinky can cut through them like a lightsaber through a trekky. There was some interesting thoughts about making units and such and using the junk we have a million of in the factory, some kind of point system. Making that system tailored to the SW world would be trickier i would say but there are a few standards. Heavy Infantry smokes light infantry unless in an urban environment, Choppers smoke tanks, etc. Of course having a rock, paper scissors system wouldn't be overtly fun either.

I am kind of ramblings but eh, we could have factions actually hash out what their armies actually are instead of every joe, smoe, and wickim tossing 1,00000,000000,0000000 troops and ships with them. I dont want to have a system of fleet building such at a rate, but make loses count in some way. I guess a point buy system might be handy or something. Nothing to complex.

Making planets mean something, now there are some bounds with the new Dominion rules but its still not so much there. Every Jar Jar in the galaxy manages to get through planetary defenses like they dont even exist at all. But i have faith in you guys.

 

[Moroi Wareyasui]

Do the defenders need an advantage?

In an actual, real life war, the advantage of the attacking side is that they set the "when" of the engagement. They can starve an enemy, attack when they're tired, force them to play sentry and inflict the psychological damage of waiting for an attack that may or may not come...on a roleplaying site you have none of that. While these characters technically have to eat, we usually don't RP out three meals a day and regulate when they take a dump. In addition, we can't really launch "sneak attacks" in this format because A.) It's a game and if the defenders just outright don't get to respond because they're busy having a life when they aren't on here then they're not playing the game and B.) Because we have all the information that is present on the board. It's really hard to hide anything.

So what is the advantage of a defending army in an actual war? They get to set up fortifications, bolster defenses, set up obstacles for the attacking army...all things that translate incredibly easily to a post by post roleplaying game. The defenders already have an advantage because any advantage an attacking army has is null given the nature of our game. We don't need to give them more advantages.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

@[member="Krest"]
Battles could be adjudicated as drawn. This way the attacker has to win at least 3/5 which is a good balance I think.

@[member="Arumi Zy"]
Agreed, but people have to be willing to get away from their old set notions...especially for fleet and group battles, but for Invasions generally. NPCs are not just fodder to one shot massacre, they're essential to the story.

 

[Darth Kentarch]

@[member="Moroi Wareyasui"], no they don't need an advantage, but they get one because the defender has easier time defending then the attacker attacking.
@[member="Tamara"], remember to make room for a draw.

 

[Moroi Wareyasui]

@[member="Darth Kentarch"]

No I get that, what I was arguing against was manufacturing extra advantages for the defensive side, like some people were suggesting.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

@[member="Darth Kentarch"]
Best of 5 is a good option then.

 

[Darth Kentarch]

@[member="Moroi Wareyasui"], I think their attempts are not extra advantages for the defender, but rather a system so that the attackers simply can't rely on PVP to win it.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

The idea is that both sides can win with JUST PVP or regular RPing, but if they want to use the other things they can, and it would actually have meaning.

 

[Moroi Wareyasui]

@[member="Darth Kentarch"]
War...in and of itself...is PvP. The "non-PvP" stuff suggested, like Patches's slicing and scouting concepts are still supplementing PvP, they're still aggressive actions, they're still combat actions even if they aren't firing a rifle, it's just adding more depth to the conflict.

Also, people have suggested mechanics that give the defenders are clear advantage in an invasion not through the logistics of defending, but through the inherent mechanics of the game. I don't want to pick on Krest here but he suggested that the Attackers needed to win one time when the defenders only needed to win once, or that the defenders needed to win fewer times than the attackers or that two wins a row bounces away the attackers regardless of what else had occurred. That's an artificial penalty inflicted on the attacking side that has nothing to do with the logistics of being the defending army. The defenders already have the logistic advantage, no reason to manufacture more bonuses.

 

[Tefka]

My proposal's a rewrite of the rules to include a new concept - Modules

INVASION
DEFINITIONS
Invasion: This involves one Major Faction's members fighting for control of the planet against another Major Faction's members. At any point, a Major Faction may “invade” another Major Faction's occupied planet.
Module: Optional rule sets that may be agreed upon by opposing Faction Leaders prior to the Invasion. Agreeing to apply a module to the Invasion rules is irrevocable and cannot be changed after both parties have agreed to apply the module.

RULES
1. Label your faction's name, the planet, and the opposing faction in the topic title.
2. Before an Invasion begins, Faction Leaders must convene to discuss how the Invasion will be handled by both sides to account for fairness and balance. If a compromise cannot be reached please consult a Role-play Judge.
3. Once an Invasion nears it's completion, the Major Faction Leaders involved in the Invasion must convene with each other and decide on the victor. If a decision cannot be made, a Roleplay Judge must be privately contacted and he/she will make the final decision.
4. A Major Faction may only begin one invasion at a time and may not start another until the original invasion is completed and judged.


MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS TO DECLARE VICTORY:
1. The thread must have a minimum total of 100 posts between both factions.
2. Both factions must have a minimum of 5 members per side. If either faction cannot meet this requirement within 72 hours of the beginning of the invasion, that faction forfeits.

INVASION MODULES
1. No character involved in this invasion may join or aid in another Invasion until this Invasion is completed.
2. Both Factions involved in the Invasion must submit Faction Armory Manifests prior to the start of the Invasion thread and utilize only NPCs/Vehicles/Ships provided on the submitted Manifests.
3. Location Based Invasion. Prior to setting up the Invasion, a minimum of 10 locations must be defined and agreed upon by the opposing Faction Leaders.
4. Objective Based Invasion. Prior to setting up the Invasion, a minimum of 10 objectives must be defined and agreed upon by the opposing Faction Leaders.
5. Siege Based Invasion. The scene of the Invasion is fast-forwarded in time to describe the Attackers as already on the ground and laying siege to a defensive position the Defenders have created.
6. Occupation Based Invasion. The scene of the Invasion is fast-forwarded in time to describe the Attackers having have gained a foothold on the planet and the Defenders serve as a guerilla/rebel force aimed to repel the invading faction.
7. Multi-Stage Invasion. It will be agreed that this invasion will take place over a predetermined quantity of threads.
8. Speed Invasion. Waiting on rotation is out the window. 2 fast 2 furious
9. No Faction may request aid.
10. Telephone Invasion. Writers assume the roles of narrators and continue the story of the last post that was posted, their subsequent posts continuing the narration of the war. This results in a collaborative story told by all.

I'll edit this as I add modules. I'm just doing this for fun 'cause I think it'd be a neat concept, but definitely speak up if you think it'd be applicable.

Edits:
9. No Faction may request aid.
10. Telephone Invasion. Writers assume the roles of narrators and continue the story of the last post that was posted, their subsequent posts continuing the narration of the war. This results in a collaborative story told by all.

 

[Darth Ferus]

I love the idea of modules. It's like difficulty settings and the such. Turn friendly fire on and off in games like Battlefront 2.

I'd suggest if you do make the modules a thing to keep it open. Make it so people can post more concepts for it. (Like I'm about to).

10. Attackers must beat the fleet in a space battle to progress to the ground.


But don't forget the after battle things. The Aftermath stuff.

Before an Invasion begins, Faction Leaders must convene to discuss how the Invasion will be handled by both sides to account for fairness and balance. If a compromise cannot be reached please consult a Role-play Judge.

In order to begin an Invasion the attacking faction must complete a ‘Prelude Thread’ in their faction forum where the plans and objectives of the invasion are discussed, forces are gathered, and characters assigned. Participation is not compulsory but is suggested, especially for characters commanding NPCs or in leadership roles. This Prelude thread must be at least 50 posts. The defenders may also do a Prelude thread, though there is no post limit for them.

[SIZE=11pt]At any point, a Major Faction may “invade” another Major Faction's occupied planet provided that the attackers have completed the prelude thread. This involves one Major Faction's members fighting for control of the planet against another Major Faction's members.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]The winning faction must meet all minimum requirements in order to declare victory.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]1. The thread must have a minimum total of 100 posts between both factions.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]2. Both factions must have a minimum of 5 members per side. If either faction cannot meet this requirement within 72 hours of the beginning of the invasion, that faction forfeits.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Once an Invasion nears its completion, the Major Faction Leaders involved in the Invasion must convene with each other and decide on the victor. If a decision cannot be made, a Roleplay Judge must be privately contacted and he/she will make the final decision.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Once the Invasion has been decided the winner (attacker or defender) must undertake an ‘Aftermath Thread’ where they consolidate their victory. This thread has a minimum of 50 posts, and the Invasion is not officially completed until this thread is also done.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]A Major Faction may only begin one invasion at a time and may not start another until the original invasion is completed and judged, and the aftermath thread is also complete.[/SIZE]





Hoooly crap I have no idea how to work the quote system.

 

[Tefka]

Prelude threads seem like a needless complication and shouldn't be *required*. Invasions, as we all know, are way more fast paced and shot from the hip.

Prelude threads would slow things down and suck all the fun out of it.

 

[Tefka]

Realistic, sure, but fun? I strongly doubt it.