Please drop Rule 14 of the General Factory Submission Guidelines

[Darth Carnifex]

YAAASSSS

 

[Jsc]

when all I see is you trying to make it so people don't have to exhibit weaknesses for their submissions?

I am making a suggestion. I cannot enforce anything. I cannot 'make' people not exhibit weaknesses in their submissions. Not in text format, not in PvP, nor even in their imagination. Whatever you are seeing is a fiction. My intent is writ bold in the very title of this thread itself. There is no hidden loophole or motive whereby JSC gets superpowers from discarding redundant factory regulations. Indeed. Given Tef's lastest string of threads and open letter to the community? One might wonder why you cannot first imagine that I am not somehow trying to help?

That said. Thank you for not hurting anyone's feelings. That, was a wise decision and I thank you for your discretion.

 

[Kamon's OOC]

I know it's your suggestion, Jay, but your suggestion opens the door for exploitation of the system. I know most people wouldn't attempt to exploit it, but there are some who would. There always are. I understand your suggestion was made with good intent. But it's opening a door for people to attempt to circumvent weaknesses of submissions (if the staff were to accept the suggestion, I mean). As it is now, weaknesses provided a needed balance for the strengths. Removal of rule 14 would make it so, at the discretion of the judges, someone wouldn't have to fill out that section.

Why? 1 strength. 1 weakness. Is it really so hard as to necessitate the removal of rule 14?

 

[Jsc]

opens the door for exploitation of the system.

Let's switch gears then. Character profiles on CHAOS.

Ignus. Why has this community and it's Staff chosen to keep character profiles exempt from review? How might this decision be similar to pros, cons, and anxieties that you now find yourself considering?

 

[Kamon's OOC]

Because even when people write character strengths and weaknesses, most people utterly ignore them when they write their character. BUT, you can bet a combat opponent will look for something to exploit there.

In a submission in the factory, an opponent will look at weaknesses to find a way to defeat the opponents item. Now, I understand you'll say "but what about non-combat items" to which I'll point out that non-combat items can still be used in combat, or used to achieve a means to strengthen a character. Are they always? No, but they can be. The CAN is the keyword.

Like I said, will it be exploited? I can't say. Would someone inevitably try? Yes. So why open the door?

And again I ask, is it really that hard to come up with 1 strength and 1 weakness?

 

[Jsc]

And again I ask, is it really that hard to come up with 1 strength and 1 weakness?

No. However, at not point in my arguement have I debated this. We are in agreement. I'm not avoiding this question because it applies. I'm avoiding it because it does not. Just look again at the subs I have linked in my OP. Their are strengths and weaknesses there. AND they are as retarded as they are time wasting. That's not a slight to their authors either. It's a slight against my intelligence because Rule 14 is suffered to exist.

Like I said, will it be exploited? I can't say. Would someone inevitably try? Yes.

Now. Let me put your heart at ease here.

Ignus. Should at any time another player abuse anything. Be it a factory item, a codex planet, or a pink rubber bikini during your wedding ceremoney. You are protected by this website's Top Rules. You can, at any time, report abuse using the Report Button or request a moderation by an RPJ. You are protected. And, any rules in the Factory that seek to protect you from this do so only in redundancy.

In closing. Dropping Rule 14 will expose no hole, release no loops, and empower no player on this website to legally get away with abusive behavior. It will only allow that which does not require str&wek to forgo listing them. Amen.

 

[Kamon's OOC]

Ignus. Should at any time another player abuse anything. Be it a factory item, a codex planet, or a pink rubber bikini during your wedding ceremoney. You are protected by this website's Top Rules. You can, at any time, report abuse using the Report Button or request a moderation by an RPJ. You are protected. And, any rules in the Factory that seek to protect you from this do so only in redundancy.

Just because we can report something does not mean we should make it so that is necessary.

However, I would propose an alternative: we designate whether items submitted are combat items or not. That would remove any necessity for caring about strengths and weaknesses.

 

[Jsc]

Just because we can report something does not mean we should make it so that is necessary.

This is an opinion. Not, a fact. And I will not sit here and debate your opinion as it applies to the way Tefka has set up this website's Report System.

I would propose an alternative:

Great. Now. Go get your own suggestion thread. Because I don't want to talk about 'your' alternative in this one. This thread, is about removing Rule 14. Lulz.

 

[Asemir]

I think the point JSC is making is that strengths and weaknesses cannot exist in a vacuum, but as required in the template, a user must submit strengths/weaknesses within a vacuum.

Let's take the apple example. Is the weakness of decomposition really a weakness? Not without context. Sure, if the context is whether or not an apple is a satisfactory non perishable food item. However, if the context is whether the apple significantly contributes to landfill volume, then swift decomposition is actually a strength.

Now, the whole reason why strengths and weaknesses are required is to make the submitter really think about the submission. It's also to ensure that an item is "balanced," whatever that means. Balance should really come at the usage level and not at the item level.

Take for example the scene in the movie Ip Man, where Ip Man fights the northern Chinese kungfu guy. Ip Man kicks his opponent's ass while using a duster against a sword. A duster is not inherently OP or imbalanced. However, through Ip Man's martial mastery, it was totally unfair.

That's why I believe strengths and weaknesses should not be required, but a detailed description and explanation should be. Then, and PvP issues that crop up should be judged on a case by case basis and only within context of that specific case.

See also my question why Character bios are not policed but Factory/Codex submissions are, when it should be the reversed. After all, the characters are far more influential and important to RPing than a given trinket.

TLDR: #NerfDusters

 

[Jsc]

[member="Asemir Lor'kora"] - You are a god and this website needs more of you. Cheers.

[member="Darth Carnifex"] - You, are the god of death. And I am pleased to see you agree with this idea.

 

[Tefka]

"14. All submissions should reflect the strengths and weaknesses of their materials and components for transparency, balance, and fair play."

I think I fully understand the point of this thread. I also think the title of this thread is way off base. I also fully understand that we are raising awareness for "what can be a waste of time around here" and people will begin raising their opinions on what should stay/go, but there is nothing about this rule that says "this does not fit within the spirit of SWRP: Chaos."

This rule is actually a very good rule of thumb, and sticks to the spirit of this community. It even states the cornerstones of this community. Transparency, balance, and fair play.

I believe there is a better way forward than this.

 

[Tefka]

To further elaborate, it is my impression that many of you are interpreting this rule as "weaknesses are mandatory."

This rule does not mandate that a submission should have a strength or a weakness, only that it should be reflected in the submission if there is one.

 

[Jsc]

This rule does not mandate that a submission should have a strength or a weakness, only that it should be reflected in the submission if there is one.

^ This is the technically that stands at the forefront of my suggestion, yes.

Alas. "If there is one" is not included in Rule 14. Which, might be a contributing factor to how I have obviously misinterpreted this rule and it's practical application in the Factory itself. Similar. I might also question how many of our Factory Judges work and judge according to this interpretation as well. Especially given the examples I have already provided and the lack of clarification I have received from the Factory Staffers themselves.

But. If this is what we're going with? Then, HECK YEAH BABY! No more mandatory listing of strengths and weaknesses for subs in which they don't apply! Awesome!

...

I'd also like to thank everybody who commented here. It takes guts and appreciate the time and effort you put into your replies. Cheers.

 

[Tefka]

I believe you meant "technicality".

It's not mandatory, though. The rule only requires that you reflect the submission properly. But please do not misinterpret me.

I am not arguing that strengths and weaknesses are unnecessary. They are on the template for good reason, and can - at any time - be required by a Factory Judge. Treat every submission like a sales pitch to a Factory Judge, but always remember - they're the ones who're authorized by the administration to buy.

Dropping a Tef quote on them won't make them budge on the price.

 

[Jsc]

[member="Tefka"] - The Factory remains an optional experience. We're good.

To be clear. This thread exists simply because of misinterpretations of how Strengths and Weaknesses get applied in the Factory and because of approved submissions like the ones I've already linked in the OP. If I didn't feel that Strengths and Weaknesses were a mandatory part of every submission, including potato salads, then this feedback thread wouldn't exist.

Now. Asemir's concerns and story about Strengths and Weaknesses being applied in a vacuum is somewhat different beast. And one I touch on only lightly because I feel it is an issue that should be resolved between the submitter and the judge themselves. Context is important, yes. However, I can't create or suggest anything that demands what light or what situation bests fits that context for every single submission. That's why I want to leave the Strengths and Weaknesses part on the template. It's healthy. Even if it's not always valid.

And I hope that's clarity enough because if I have to post to this thread one more time I'm going vomit. Night all.

 

[Tefka]

[member="Jay Scott Clark"]

Why do you feel the need to vomit when posting to your own thread? Is it the difficulty inherit in discussing with varying degrees of different opinions?

 

[James Justice]

[member="Jay Scott Clark"]

Yeah but if it doesn't deserve a weakness or a strength, why submit it? That's my philosophy. There are lots of trinkets of James', Akio's, and Myst's that I was like, "hey I could sub this and it'd be cool" then I was like, 'well, why if it doesn't deserve a strength or a weakness?'

Just my opinion would apply to the subs in question as far as the equal numbers thing: no strengths so it doesn't require any weaknesses, in my humble opinion.

 

[Ellie Mors]

Marking these sections N/A should be reasonable when they do not apply at all. See the subs above for more info

If a section of the template is non-applicable, it should be filled out with N/A. If a submission is potato salad and there's no strength to the submission, it should be N/A. There are weaknesses to foods (such as foodborne illness) and should be filled out appropriately.

If something does not have a weakness and is as trivial as a handle, for example, we will not force you to make up something. You simply need to include the actual weaknesses present in your submission - you may be requested to create one, however, if you are making something out of beskar and decide it has no weaknesses. That is where Rule no. 14 comes into play - where the submitter decides they do not want to fill out the strength or weakness section for whatever reason, or makes one which does not accurately portray the materials utilized for the submissions in question.

It is not there for a factory judge to require a potato salad to state that it cannot be used as a practical form of weaponry to fill in that weakness slot.

I am aware this was addressed in part earlier in the thread, I simply wish to provide the most concise explanation for why the rule exists. We appreciate the feedback, and will likely try to portray the rule in a less misleading light.

 

[Kami Meran]

1 yay im famous.

2 i don't know. i think they are needed for some advanced things to prevent OP'ing but i understand.
if you make say a fridge you want it to work. without having to writ about how it will break down.

 

[Lynn Nantaris]

[member="Tefka"] - The Factory remains an optional experience. We're good.

I distinctly remember you saying this line once before and being called out that it wasn't true. Sure it is optional if yoy don't want tech at all, but if you want that special snowflake tech then no, not optional.