Quality vs Quantity?

[Apotheosis]

Hi all! This is a discussion I must have, as it has been bothering me since I started on SWRP Chaos. Before I begin, I would like to remind everyone that civil discussion is something I strive for, as you should too, as these are the rules of the website. Please refrain from making threats or getting off topic as well, as that does not aid the conversation in the slightest.

I have only been here a week or two, and while I am immensely enjoying the story-line and role-playing, something has been irking me greatly.

It would seem that there is a huge battle of Quality vs Quantity on the site itself. An epic battle of exciting proportions, I watch as both sides duke it out, fist and feet.

What do I mean by Quality vs Quantity? Simple. I have noticed, several times though out reading and role playing here, that character skill does not always match writing skill. Therefore, we have a quality vs quantity issue with the site itself.

I have seen Jedi Knights that write one to two broken sentences and call it role-playing. I have seen character profiles with 4-5 lines that barely make up a character, and no one comments on the incompleteness of the character or even the illogical make-up of some of these characters.

"Apoth, who cares. Let people role-play how they want." That wouldn't be an issue honestly, but these same people that write 2-3 broken sentences are being promoted higher up in their factions. Are you serious? I believe that writing skill is ultimately tied to character skill in the long run. The best writers I've seen on Chaos usually write out amazing posts. Are they always long and detailed? Of course not, but they are at least structured correctly and fit well in the role-play.

Furthermore, the members that are being elevated to teaching positions that do not have the same skill are going on to teach newer members. This could potentially cause serious issues. Newer members to the site are taught by these "more experienced" that writing 1-2 sentences is perfectly okay. Spelling? Who cares! Character development? Whats that? Just have your character wield dual black and white shoto sabers! Now that's cool! Ooh ooh, how about if in addition to the dual shoto sabers, he also had Darth Vaders mask?! Awesome! Make him an edgy former Jedi that rescinded his ways and became a Sith! Thats new, right?! These are the sort of things that scare me, as they potentially can ruin role-play. Cliche and broken characters can potentially be made here, and from what I've seen, are being made here.

I know the website has a strict "We don't judge your character profile" rule. That is fine. But what if there were dedicated people that looked at profiles and put in some constructive criticism? Some people, perhaps elevated to staff positions, that can offer some constructive teaching when it comes to their profiles. That might help those stuck in this skill rut.

Am I going crazy? Am I the only one that feels this way? If so, call me crazy and let this post die.

I have a feeling however that I am not.

 

[Jeron Verity]

Writer Skill =/= Character Skill. Saying someone who can not write a book means they should not be a high rank or leader of a faction is closing in on discrimination. "They write horribly, so they can't become high ranks."

Snow, in Lockout (Movie), was a messy agent, did his job horribly, but it got done... mostly clean. He was unprofessional, rude, stuck up, sarcastic 24/7, wasted time, informal, arrogant, and uncaring attitude compared to a lot of real life Generals.

Similar could be said about Bruce Willis in Die Hard, some times he disobeyed orders, which is unfitting. But things get done.



Personally, I admit I roleplay with a more casual style of play, but for the most part I am flexible and spread to other players skills. By Casual, I mean I can write a few paragraphs when I'm in a good mood, Free -> Casual -> Advanced, I've actually written a book before. I admit I tend to avoid the very free 1-2 liners, but there are a few causes for such players.

1. They are young and have not introduced themselves much to RP -- do not cast them out, teach them
2. They have little to no time, but this may help them cope or is a very enjoyable hobby that they try and get into
3. This is not their language, but they are trying
4. They have trouble concentrating/thinking hard about a character and actions.


Keeping someone at a low rank because their writing skill isn't satisfactory to you very much is "Your color is not satisfactory to me." I just have to say that, and you make it like a serious problem.


If you have a preference of player types you play with, avoid the others. No one forces you to talk to anyone Although judging a book by its cover doesn't always work out.

 

[Ben Watts]

This has been a battle that has been raging since the beginning of time when it comes to roleplaying. One that I myself struggled with for the longest time. I was always very antsy about promoting people who, I myself, did not think deserved it. Ultimately, though, I do believe that with time these people who you are seeing getting promoted who "Don't deserve it" balance themselves out. I know this because I was one of those people who was absolutely dreadful. In my defense I started roleplaying at a very young age, back in 2001, and boy was I terrible. I am talking one liners terrible.

But I knew it, I knew I was nowhere near the caliber of other Knights, but what propelled me beyond terrible writer with one liners to a well rounded writer was consistently writing with other people who were better than me. Writing is a process, it is not something you can just jump into and get. It is trial and error and requires so much practice that it can sometimes be overwhelming.

The great thing about Chaos is its lack of discrimination. Yes, there are Knights and Masters who do not write on the tier that I think a Knight or a Master should write on, but who am I to create the tier? In my opinion, Chaos is a place where you can become a Knight or a Master and not deserve it, but eventually you will get to the point where your writing will improve. I can tell you from experience that hindering people from promotions does only one thing: It pushes people away from writing.

Would you rather have good and bad writers writing together and constantly improving or do you want to create a forum that says "If you cannot stand up to X standards you cannot reach Y." I tell ya that will do nothing but shrink the community and that is not what this place is about. Chaos is a place where any writer can reach any goal and their quality of writing does not matter. Why? Because if it did this place would not be as successful. It wouldn't. Deny that statement all you want but you're wrong.

And while I agree that constructive criticism is a great tool, it can also be extremely off putting, and the lack of strictness on a bio is beautiful. If we start putting restrictions on peoples writing then the community would become less of a community and more of an elitist society where the best people are the only ones getting the promotions. People come here to write and to accomplish goals, not everyone does this to prove they are the best writer, they want to become a Master. If that goal is unachievable then what is the point? What is the point of coming here and writing if I know the limit on my writing and I know I will never achieve that status? I can go find another forum that will be accepting of my writing style.

At the end of the day it is neither quality nor quantity that matters. It is about having fun. And if one person has fun with the way they write then let them. If you don't enjoy the way someone writes, don't write with them, trust me when I say there are an absurd number of people with diverse writing styles that you do not need to focus or worry about how one or two people are writing. It is about creating a welcoming community that you can go to and accomplish whatever goals that your particular writing style will allow for. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

[member="Apotheosis"]
Hmm.

What you have to understand is that for varying reasons people may not be capable of writing to an arbitrary standard one might set.

I admit, I am a bit of a snob sometimes when I see poor punctuation and spelling. However, as a community we are open to all, and putting arbitrary restrictions on people and preventing them posting until the match a standard is not helpful.

Likewise with bios, I can advise people if I feel that they shouldn’t be Darth Vader’s daughter, but I won’t actually force them to change it until it becomes an issue to the board.

In the end, we are a community, and so we try to help other writers, and collectively we get better as well to.

 

[Matsu Ike]

I really look at it as rp how you want to. SOme rpers write large posts that are great and in depth but then they have almost the same thing happening in the next post and you realize the pace is very slow with lots of thought and minimal action. THey may have only gotten out of a seat over getting up, walking and talking as some would do... and there is nothing wrong with that. If it makes you happy to rp like that it is great and have fun. I'll try to match when there is enough to work off of and seek to make a good flow of the posts. Others I have rped with are very direct and to the point giving what needs to be there and going in depth when they need to... again nothing bad about it and keeps the pace nicely. I'll go over and across the map and have done it plenty with some posts being long and detailed and other when I don't feel like repeating the same post almost shorter and to the point. I can only make one or two about my characters inner thoughts before they just kind of start looking for squirrels.

Too long didn't read: RP how you want and if anyone complains about your posts being short or says you are lower quality because you don't string sentences together as long as they do. you likely wouldn't have enjoyed rping with them as much.

 

[Nima Tann]

How about both?

That would be utopic though

 

[Apotheosis]

Arguing with Sam Seaborn is going to be difficult, but here goes nothing...

It's not so much "Your color is unsatisfactory to me", its more or less "your color is bright fricking purple and hurts my eyes. Could you tone it down a bit?"

Your four reason are perfectly fine, and I have no doubt several people on the site tick some or even all of them. My issue is this:

1. There are role-players on the site that are in teaching roles that I don't think should be there. They ramble sentences together and sometimes do not even punctuate them. Every modern day browser, as far as I know, has some type of spellcheck. They type their 4-5 sentences all stuck together with no periods and see no issue with it? These same role-players are also in teaching positions, helping the newer members acclimate to Chaos itself. If a newer member is being trained by someone that literally is wearing Darth Vader's helmet, what prevents them from doing the same things?

2. Another issue that is sometime's tied to the first is the problem of some characters having ridiculous equipment or backstories. I will not name characters, as that is very rude, but if you go through the character profiles, you will people creating characters that make honestly no logical sense. If I created a character that was wielding Bane's original lightsaber, no one would call me on it? What if I wrote in on one of my characters that I had Luke Skywalkers original blue lightsaber? These are the things that sometimes get passed by, and they make no sense. Granted, I haven't seen characters god-modding or anything, which is good, but still.

And you are correct, but some factions look like they are having a serious issue with getting trainers together. If a newer member wants to role-play and get their character going, they might have to deal with a trainer that may not be able to cobble a sentence together.

Again, I am not trying to be elitist or snobbish with writing. My writing is nowhere near fantastic, and I for one know this. If I was offered a promotion to either of my characters, I would decline, as I do not think my skill warrants the rank just yet. I understand some people come on the forum and learn more and more and their writing improves. But from my past role-playing experiences, I have seen the opposite happen as well. Writers that have a hard time overall with their characters eventually get promoted to the top because of their veterancy/post count.

And Ben brought up something I want to touch on. He said what if we became an elitist society that only promoted those that were the best writers. Well, isn't that already what we've done? Look at the faction leaders of the Jedi Order, SSC, One Sith. They are able writers and do a fantastic job. How come promotions to faction leader or even slightly lower are only given to good, able writers if the community is non-discriminatory? The fact is, you will not see someone a faction leader if they only write 1-2 sentences per post.

I don't want this to blow up into a full blown argument, so I'm trying not to step on any toes. I've enjoyed roleplaying here thus far, as its been the best experience I've had to date. Other roleplaying sites are either too open or too closed. I don't want to see Chaos descend into bad writing and roleplaying, as it will tear this good site apart. I've seen it happen before.

 

[Darth Ferus]

Not everyone can write as well as another. Should have seen me when I first started. You think I'm bad now? I didn't even know what sentence structure meant when I started. The only problem I see with this is when people don't look past the writing to the writer themselves. Some have a disability, some don't speak English as a primary language. Some are just young and are still learning so much (Lets be honest though. No matter hoe old you are you're still learning.)

In the case of a shirt but well written post to a long poorly written, I'd take the well written any day. But that stuff shouldn't matter. What matters is if you're a good person trying to write to the best of your abilities versus someone who doesn't care. I know many 'poor' writers who are better than the ones people consider 'good' writers.

 

[Ashin Varanin]

If someone who's young, dyslexic, poorly educated, physically challenged (for typing), or has English as a second language puts in the work, they get the rank and recognition they deserve same as anyone else. I've known several people who fit those categories but had sound judgment, played fair, and set good examples. Literacy is not competence and it sure as heck isn't good judgment.

 

[Ashin Varanin]

[member="Darth Ferus"] beat me to it.

 

[Jeron Verity]

[member="Apotheosis"]

"No, this is America, and the law states I can have my truck bright purple. If there's a problem here you can take it to court."


1. This may or may not happen, no matter what. The good, the bad, the ugly, everything comes with everything. A skilled writer may horribly lack in combat effectiveness and ability, text-wise. The teacher being a Jedi may be angry a lot, and the padawan may take after that and may eventually become Sith. Realistically, a roleplay teacher, will be just as I said, may be like Bruce Willis or Guy Pierce, but they get the job done, no matter how unprofessional you like it. But if he's the only man to save your daughter, well, he's the only man.

2. I agree with you here. Everyone wants to be the super hero, the bad ass, the special one. This was talked about earlier when someone suggested a single jedi order, which will never happen, unfortunately, because everyone wants to be special and wants to be heard and have their words matter. I feel as I'm the only one that wants to have a special notion, but I give myself the most harsh weaknesses and try to progress through them to some higher form. But 'i wanna be speshul' will never stop, not on this board, not in America, not in the world. Eventually you have to tolerate it, and/or ignore it, or leave.

3. I've played with these people you say that 'can't cobble a sentence together,' I'd rather write with friendly people who can't spell, than snobs who curse at my misspelling because my laptops keyboard is broke and Q, A, and Z are broke.

I don't find the GR leader fascinating....



But all in all, this is completely opinionated and unfactual set of standards. "You should hold the door open for others." Yeah, I do it, but why should I enforce it on others? Because a code of etiquette? Pfff.... Tell that to the rogue colonies of America who disobeyed Britains laws which led to bloodshed.

 

[Morgana Sokolov]

I think the people above me kinda summed up my feelings on why I don't really care if someone only posts a few sentences, or if they don't always use the best grammar or spelling. Regardless, I'll add a few of my own words to this: 8/10 times that I've personally seen someone with bad grammar, punctuation, or spelling, it turned out that they were either new(ish) to English or that they were dyslexic. A couple times it was both. While we might want to say that 'that really doesn't matter', it's important to keep in mind that those things can, and will, effect someone's writing.

There are other factors too. Time available to the writer, the muse they have at the moment, and experience in roleplay. None of those are reasons to judge people. If someone can only get out a short paragraph then okay, they can only get out a short paragraph. If it's enough for me to understand what they're doing then I can respond to it. If not, then I can ask for clarification. I don't lose anything by working with these people. I can still, in fact, have good stories with them.

What kind of bothers me about this post is the idea that these people 'being allowed to teach' is a bad thing. So what if new members end up training under them? So what if new members work with these people? Freedom of roleplay is a thing, and everyone here gets to choose who they write with. We can't force new members to write with certain people. If they want to write with someone who does shorter posts, they can do that. There's nothing wrong with that.

Can 'these people' teach new members bad habits? Yes and no. But the thing is, people will rarely write with the same 3-4 people for their entire RP career. New members will end up writing with the 'better writers' (I use that term with a scowl). They will write with those who do short posts, long posts, sensible posts, crazy posts, all of the posts. For every 'bad writer' they write with, they'll likely write with 1-3 'good writers'. If they don't? Well, chances are it's because they found that those were the people they clicked better with. Or the people that their style of writing works best with.

We can't punish them for that.

Another important thing to note is what Ashin and Ferus said. I can't figure out how to reword it, but they've got the idea down pat. We all come from different places. We're all here on different points of our own personal timelines. Some of us have been doing this for 20+ years. Other people, like me, aren't even 20 yet. Some of us are new to English, and some of us (like me) have illnesses or conditions that can make writing exceptionally hard at times (or, unlike with me, all the time).

As a final note: Claiming canon items is a thing. It's also a thing that's regulated by staff, because we can't have 20+ people running around in Darth Vader's mask. We can have 20+ people running around in replicas, but we can only have 'one mask to rule them all'. So, no, we won't be having a bunch of people waving around Luke's lightsaber or flying in the Falcon. When people are seen using canon items that they didn't work for, or have already been claimed, they are generally spoken to. The rules are explained, and 99 out of 100 times they understand and fix their errors.

We're a good site full of good people. As someone famous probably said at least once:
Them's the facts.

 

[Popo]

Quality​

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It's not what you have or who you are, but how you use what you've got. This applies to gear and abilities IC'ly just as much as personal writer skills. I've seen a Sith Master lose to a bunch of Jedi/Neutral Padawans as well as NFUs take down some of the strongest Force users. One man turned Dromund Kaas into an ice ball while an entire faction alchemized an entire planet's population.

Everything is variable. Just because someone looks like a fresh faced kid straight off the farm doesn't mean they aren't dangerous. Likewise, just because someone looks like a grizzled veteran of a thousand battles doesn't mean they won't go down like a sack of potatoes on the first punch.

 

[Jeron Verity]

[member="Popo"]


TANK MASTER POPO HAS SPOKEN

 

[Marcus Itera]

I don't find the GR leader fascinating....

Step 1 of what not to do in public threads.

#AStrongerManStandsUpForOthers

 

[Jeron Verity]

[member="Marcus Foster"]


Oh no, he's a fine man, but what he's offered me, what he's personally offered me, isn't fantastic. And he doesn't offer me anything, so why stand up for him? xD

 

[Geneviève Lasedri]

I don't find the GR leader fascinating....

Thanks.

 

[Kurayami Bloodborn]

[member="Apotheosis"]

This is far from my first RP board, and I've been writing in a text based environment for 7 years now. Those who know me from when I first started will tell you that I fit into many of the categories you mention as 'negative' when I first started. My bio is short, only a few sentences. Why? Because of the fact that with only a vague background I have more freedom to develop the character. There are things from other sites in terms of background that I want to write in, but I want it to fit his story. There is a reason that I started with vague flashbacks bothering him in the middle of a battle. They are subtle hints to others that eventually the space will be filled in. Granted I havent updated his profile to reflect this yet as I'm still trying to figure out how to tie everything together.

I used to be one who didn't make long posts because I didn't have a good idea of the character's personality or motivations. These are things that you may plan one way, but when your character finds themselves in said situation or confronted with a hard question you realize that, hey they would react much differently than I thought. That original idea may have to be completely reworked, which mean reworking many aspects of the character. That takes time. So posts might be short while they get into the character's mindset. Once I get into Kurayami's mind and start to try and look at things as he would I can usually figure out a much better reply. But it still takes time for me even after 7 years of writing him. Granted he is far different here than on other boards but much of his core values and such remained the same.

In short, work with these people and help them work towards the highest quality of writing that they can achieve. Remember that even when you started you had a long way to go and for those who have written with me from the start I thank them for the critiques they gave and the help they offered. It is because of them I am able to write at the level I do now.

 

[Marcus Itera]

[member="Galven Solomon"]

What I'm getting at is, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it. Simple courtesy.

 

[Jeron Verity]

Thanks.

Oh you're the leader?! I've been played for a fool! This whole time this white haired pretty boy has been posing as the leader! My apologies miss