Star Wars: The Clone Wars Animated Series

[Selena Halcyon]

Calmness does not inherently make them 1) more rational or 2) less evil. It just makes them less prone to fits of emotion, which is not 1:1 what the darkside is. The darkside is also using the Force in a manner to produce unnatural power. It can also be to advance oneself beyond others. The lure of this is that the darkside makes it easier to do these things. Like with any addiction it is hard to burn. I am not against individuals struggling, however, the reality is that it does have a corrupting element. We see that in the movies as well, which should always be viewed as the highest source material no matter what discussion you're having. You don't use it once and instantly become evil incarnate, but it does begin to warp your psyche. We never see Bane before he ascends to being a Sith Lord, same with Dooku. I am sure they have "rational" reasons for their actions, but they are still bent by the corrupting force of the darkside. There is a heck of a lot of elegance in that as well. No one would say that it makes you into a psychopathic murderer necessarily, but it certainly bends you towards options you would not normally take.

This moves me towards a moronic concept from EU. Yoda using the darkside. So dumb.

However, yes, I am certainly one who favors the movies and TCW over other materials but that is because they are the canon now. I disregard Legends from most discussions (unless it is like this one) simply because it is no longer the canon. However, I would like to point out that current inclusions into canon have been great. The comic series have, in general, been gold. Chewbacca's series was meh for me, as was Leia's, but Lando's turned out great. Kanan's has been awesome (great insight into the psyche of a clone post order 66). The Darth Vader series has been awesome, and provides loads of cool new concepts. Star Wars has been good but not mind blowing. Anakin & Obi-wan has been a hoot. The books have been really hit and miss, however, I would say that that is par for the course with SW books. We also haven't had any big series yet.

 

[Viru Lentus]

[member="Selena Halcyon"]

Actually we do see both Bane and Dooku before they go to the darkside, and even in the movies he was described as a paragon of light. While Bane was a slave, he was simply introduced to the darkside first. And I don't see the Sith as evil at least not the ones like Bane, Dooku, Caedus. Yes the latter two did things they wouldn't have but Bane was pretty true to himself after he accepted it. I mean Bane simply wants to wipe out the jedi and establish that the strong rule. I don't see to much wrong with that mentality. As long as you're one of the strong. It just takes willpower to fight it numerous examples being Vos(Legends), Dooku(Legends), Assaj (Legends, and canon). Many more can be listed off. Though since it seems that most people rp as though their characters are from Legends canon and their Legends canon gear and such accepted its fine on this site so we don't have to be limited by the new canon here to much.

Well that is your viewpoint, and many don't ascribe to it thankfully. It's similar to arguing with a marvel fan about which marvel universe they like. While 616 is the canon universe there is still the Ultimate Universe, One filled with zombies, another for cartoons, and another for movies. It's really up to how one perceives it, and while Legends is no longer apart of the canon I think its good. They basically cleared the slate for the new canon and made Legends its own universe. I've read the Darth Vader, Star Wars, Lando, Kanan and such. The comics are alright but still not what I'm looking for just yet. You can still tell they're feeling around to find ground to stand on and often times forget what the story was when they started off. I'm sure they'll get better. The new books are all meh. No innovation. Probably won't have any big series till Disney finishes mapping out what movies they want to make. I assure you they're going to squeeze Starwars till no more money can be made from it. Which then it will end back in the same spot it was before. Especially if they don't start letting writers innovate. James Luceno even seemed limited in his writing of Tarkin, he is usually a much more free and innovative writer.

 

[Z'Zharen]

Which then it will end back in the same spot it was before. Especially if they don't start letting writers innovate. James Luceno even seemed limited in his writing of Tarkin, he is usually a much more free and innovative writer.

There are pros and cons with the new canon order under Disney's rule.

They want to keep everything in a manageable timeline and not have anything that makes a fan or newcomer go "Wait...this doesnt make sense because of what happens in..."

For me something I always questioned in the EU was TFU game/story. Its fun to play, but I did not like the idea of the empire being the think tank to create the rebel alliance or that they were formed under a "redeemed sith acolyte" or the godly powers demonstrated in it.

But in the old EU, such as KOTOR which focused on it's own story and world building being inspired from the main Star Wars content and other pieces of EU lore. It didnt have to worry too much on continuity because it took place so many years before the films or tv series. It was a fun, engaging story that I feel made great contributions to the Star Wars mythology.

Or novels like Plageuis that weave a behind the scenes story to make better sense of things that seemed questionable in films like The Phantom Menance. It was able to use loopholes to create an interesting story while not over stepping the main canon content it was inspired from.

Sometimes you got great stories from games and books as I mentioned above. Sometimes you got simplistic stories as [member="Selena Halcyon"] mentioned with Medstar or Shatterpoint (which I was always confused about the fate of Deppa Bilaba) but enjoy the direction the Kanan comic took with her in the new canon.

It comes down to what we each cherry pick from the old EU and the new canon as fans. The new canon appears to be cherry picking from the old EU as well, but their prime focus is making sure stories dont step on the toes of other stories...which honestly for me kind of makes their new novels a bit too safe and predictable. Not providing alot of new things to add to the new star wars mythos. TFA has been mentioned as a re-hash of the original series to play it safe with fans.

There has only been a few things from new canon that I liked that shows they're being a bit more creative or over all trying new ideas or embracing things rather than shoehorning. I like the small transition of LGBT characters being introduced in the books, I like Lords of The Sith embracing the fact that old Palpatine can still do amazing flips and lightsaber combat, cutting loose as a dark side user! Lost Stars might have been a re-telling of some pivotal movie scenes, but the point of views were absolutely genuine from the characters and the main characters were portrayed well and used appropriately.

But then you get stories like....almost anything with Luke in the new canon. I dont see the appeal of reading or listening about Luke, whose journey from farm boy to Jedi was already well established in the films. Some isolated scenes are cool as quick one minute things such as him finding holocrons and hearing the words of Shaak Ti or that he trains in a Jedi Temple featured in TCW. But really its him whining, doubting and struggling with something that we all know he eventually over comes. But hey it makes sense canon wise thats what hes been doing in between the original films, which yeah thats great it makes sense. BUT ITS BORING!

I would like to see things we havent seen before or at least in the form of the new canon, things we have questions about such as, Lukes New Jedi Order....who was apart of it? How did he feel about becoming a mentor? Was Leia ever trained in the slightest did she have any interest in it? What was the upbringing of Kylo Ren like? Are there people in the First Order who question the savage tactics of their superiors as shown in Lost Stars with the Empire.

Those are some things that cab be cherry picked from the EU, or go into a totally new direction. But as mentioned before they want to map out the films first and then focus on filling in the new canon in between. That does make it frustrating, that it seems these stories are made with the #1 priority of being safe for the canon timeline and creativity is a second or third thought applied.


EDIT:

Though TCW seems to be bridge between the old EU and the new canon. It cherry picked and shoe horned from the EU, but also came up with brilliant stories and concepts.

 

[Viru Lentus]

[member="Z'Zharen"]


You summed it up perfectly. I don't think there's much I can add. However considering that they already planned movies well into 2020 and past it I think we're going to have awhile to wait before we see any true innovation from the writers of the novels. Which is sad, especially if they stick to their definition of 'safe'. TFA didn't innovate at all. It was very much a rehash of the older films but this time even more contrived plotlines, loopholes, and such. I have never rolled my eyes at a Starwars film, but TFA had moments where I rolled my eyes and groaned every few minutes. This was with me going in expecting some new movie that shows starwars with the creators own light. Especially their downgrade in choreography. If they don't get better with that I will certainly dislike the films more. For all the mistakes the prequels made the choreography was awesome. Now TFA makes mistakes and has crappy choreography. Not to mention their character Kylo Ren which when one psycho analyzes him makes him an interesting character, but just up front he's pretty crappy and whiny. I'd say more so than anakin, and he's only been in one movie. Not to mention the whole Jon Snow look he has going on.

 

[Z'Zharen]

[member="Viru Lentus"]

There, the key word. Loophole.

TFA has them and thats what will lead to great stories in their new canon EU. Where did the knights of Ren come from? Why is Kylo obsessed with his grandfather? Didnt his mom tell him about Alderaan?! What will he finish that Darth Vader started? Who is Rey's great grandmother? Or the origins of BB-8 etc...

Kylo has amazing hair as did Luke, I was hoping that was going to be enough to win TFA best hair styling category in tonights Oscars.

 

[Viru Lentus]

[member="Z'Zharen"]

If they do it. And I think they're exploring the Knights of Ren in Rebels. I think they made it pretty obvious why he's obsessed with Vader. HE was very much a character that always wanted to be in control, he wanted to be powerful, and wanted to be noticed. Though among the jedi that is not something they really condone. They always preach for one to be humble. Something Kylo did not show. It seemed very much like he wanted to live up to the Skywalker Legacy. Hence such a deep connection to Vader. However them naming him Ben was absolutely stupid. Leia didn't even know Obi-wan as Ben kenobi. She knew him as Obi-wan. The name seemed shoehorned in . Considering Han barely knew Obi-wan as well it makes no sense for them to name their child after him. It is very much a name Luke would use though, as we saw in the EU.

 

[Selena Halcyon]

In what world does TFA have crappy fighting choreography? It has the most genuine looking combat of just about any outside of RotJ.

 

[Viru Lentus]

[member="Selena Halcyon"]

Psh they're choreography is horrible. Do I really need to post side by side videos of the fighting choreography in the prequels with TFA? That's not even counting TCW which for what I disliked about it had great choreography. TFA's choreography was a downgrade.

 

[Selena Halcyon]

Oh my goodness you're seriously one of those? The Prequels have DREADFUL choreography. There is nothing about them that is even remotely decent. To explain. Almost none of the attacks are actual attacks. You can see them going around the opponent before the attack even begins. Or nevermind the dodges that begin even before an attack starts. If you want to ascribe that to force nonsense, cool but if I'm able to know to duck before the attack begins, I sure as hell can stab in that moment too. Or, and I love this one, how any attack where someone is hit or loses a limb is the most drawn out moment ever. Seriously, watch Anakin lose his hand to Dooku, his arm just hangs out there for forever. The fighting is dreadful.

The fighting in TFA is tangible and grounded. That is how people actually fight with swords. They're not sword dancing for show, they actually believably look like they're trying to kill one another.

 

[Viru Lentus]

[member="Selena Halcyon"]

Even people who hated the prequels loved the choreography. Most of the time the people who hated it or thought it dreadful were those that thought themselves or call themselves combatants usually focused on functionality for humans. Jedi and Sith are far from human, their precog gives them warnings and often times they move and fight faster then regular humans can deal with. Jango Fett and a few others being the exceptions. Not to mention the Jedi usually refrain from killing when not necessary. It actually makes sense with their choreography.

TFA downgraded to something akin to medieval fighting once again. Something that people that loved and praised the movie complained about. Not to mention the seen where Kylo has Mary Sue bent over backwards above that chasm. Even with the force one wouldn't be able to keep themselves from falling especially in that awkward pose she was in. However since even the new comics, books, and cartoons kept the type of fighting from the prequels I guess we can see which is more popular overall.

 

[Selena Halcyon]

Good lord you are arguing from conjecture and anecdotal evidence. Yes, some people who loved TFA disliked the fighting. I loved the movie and loved the fighting. See how your argument kind of blows as an argument?

Popularity also does not make something better. The comics have also been pretty grounded (honestly always have been). Acrobatics aren't bad, but nonsensical attacks are. You mention precog. I already addressed that, in that if they have the forethought to duck under something they can also use that opportunity to attack under the guard of the opponent. That is incredibly simple, man.

 

[Viru Lentus]

[member="Selena Halcyon"]

That's the point. If you haven't realized I haven't been arguing. I simply stated what I thought. You're the one pushing the issue, you're obviously one that prefers the movies and functionality over everything else. I am not that type of person, and I won't change. I said before I respected your opinion. I like the duels in the prequels and TCW. Which for all I dislike about TCW I can admit they did those right. I like the Legends material more than the newer stuff. Personal opinion, you can always argue but you can't change one's opinion especially if you have no proof to back up that you're right over them. You even said that I made it seemed like my fandom was better than those that like the movies and cartoon. It isn't what I was saying. I simply was pointing out why I disliked the show, and why its good to have knowledge of Legends material. Especially on a site like this that includes loads of it.

However popularity does often decide the course of media. Did you ever read how precog worked in the Bane novels? They really went full in depth of how its like a whole game of each other predicting their moves back and forth. This was even shown in TCW, best example being the duel between Dooku, Obi-wan, and Anakin in season six. He very much was predicting their attacks and was dodging and striking at them.

 

[Z'Zharen]

[member="Selena Halcyon"]

[member="Viru Lentus"]

We all love Star Wars.

The choreography in the OT I always saw came from out of practice or heavy metal suit hindered men and a young boy whose trying to figure out how to old a saber. So the fighting style depicted however realistic/slower seemed to fit with the characters and their experience.

The Prequels despite the fact it was rehearsed as dance (not an insult) the movements are faster and are made to show off. Its the prime of the Jedi Order and split of new dark users also in their prime age and health.

TFA was back to the OT way, because it appears in this time line you have half trained or memory wiped (Rey) young people again who either rushed their training or are out of practice if Rey was mind wiped from knowing she was once a Padawan.

I am very interested to see how Luke will duel, I doubt in his exile he was out of practice like Obi-wan was (to my knowledge and based on the portrayal in the OT).

TCW I love, but I must say I have qualm with Star Wars Rebels....the lightsabers are sooooooo skinny! Does not look appealing to me.

 

[Kellyn Muir]

I went into the show thinking I would hate it, the animation is weird, it's a child's show. After a few episodes, I was hooked. It reminded me of why I loved Star Wars and showed me there was so much more out there, it was literally watching a new experience with every episode. My favorite arc was definitely the one on Umbara.

My favorite part though was seeing the development of clone troopers. From Phase I to Phase II, from space combat to deserters, it was overall very enjoyable. It even inspired me to drop four figures on a set of clone armor hehe...

 

[Darth Carnifex]

The stink of EU crotch-jockies permeates this thread most horrifically.

 

[Kelan The Hutt]

The Clone Wars, in my opinion, was probably one of the best Star Wars T.V series to ever roll. I have a few quarrels with it like everyone else, whereas mine is mostly related to Darth Maul coming back. Despite lightsabers being able to cauterize wounds, I found it kind of strange and unfitting for Darth Maul to have been able to survive being cut in half and falling down this trash compactor, whatever its call. My biggest problem with him was how he pretty just became an anger filled revenge seeker towards Obi-Wan when he came back. Don't get me wrong, I'd be pretty pissed off if someone cut me in half, but making someone change from the characteristics of being a mysterious warrior who didn't say a thing in the first film to how he was in the Clone Wars was always off for me. Also, Savage Opress seemed to be added just to add more story for Maul, but that's honestly the case with most characters in Clone Wars who didn't appear in the movies. Snips...

Off to the pros, there's one/two things in particular that the Clone Wars had triumphed in so much that fulfills the part of the Clone Wars that the movies never directly did. Its really obvious of what that is if you think about it, and its the clone troopers and other Jedi master character development. There is no doubt in my mind that this is the Clone War's most strong ability. The most notable examples of this in my opinion have to be the Malevolence episode and Fives' entire development over the episodes.

Elaborating more on the Malevolence episode, the plot of the episode is that the Separatists have an ion blaster weapon on a ship that is capable of disabling the power of ships so they can defeat the ship with ease. This happens with a ship that Jedi master Plo Koon is on, so of course he's forced to evacuate on an escape pod along with Commander Wollfe, Sinker, and Boost. Throughout the entire event of the episode, these three clones are so convinced that no one will come to rescue them, with how clones are expendable. However, the characteristics of Plo Koon renders him as a caring and striving person who wouldn't give up, as he directly states to them over the numerous occasions that the clones expendable nature doesn't apply to them. In the end, knowing that Plo Koon had plot armor, they do end up being saved as he had claimed multiple times.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUH3_ouJNoA

Going into my second topic idea revolving around Fives and the Order 66 course of events, it was such a good idea from my perspective to have this one clone trooper who started off as a rookie who barely survived a droid on a lunar base to an ARC trooper who discovered the whole plot of Order 66. Directors who had managed to take a minor character and turn him into the most developed and emotionally ending character of the whole series. Knowing that the one clone who had discovered the whole plot to exterminate the Jedi had been killed by one of his own who didn't understand the event was the most emotionally affecting thing ever.

To sum it up, the only bad thing I found about the Clone Wars was the Sith, mostly Grievous and just how bad he is, and also how he's abusive to his own droids.