The Roche Trials

[Gir Quee]

Realistically, I think Corvus is right about this.

But at the same time, I do think we should incorporate members of other factions into this because it will be an interesting RP opportunity. During my time here, I do not remember a trial has generating this much interest.

But, I believe if we want to not be just putting on a show, SSC and GA jurors are the way to go. We need to be serious about this. ICly, and OOCly, we need to show people that the Republic can be better than what it has been of late. This whole thing is very, very important to that.

3. The jurors only decide on guilt. Punishment is decided usually by the judge. Having outside jurors discourages any notion of bias if they come back and say not guilty. Additionally they have no particular stake in the outcome and so can remain truly neutral on the subject.

One of my concerns with this is the blending of IC and OOC motives. I'm not sold on the impartiality of people interested in participating in this trial. Doubtless if a Republic-only jury is selected, some people not in the Republic will say that the trial was just for show. If it's a board-wide open jury,I can see the potential for this to turn into a witchhunt.

I think this is one of those areas where we might want to emulate real life.

In real life, juries are randomly selected. If they are believed to have bias somehow in an interview, they are tossed out of the selection process.

If we are to select members of the board to be jurists (which I'm not sold on yet), I'd recommend that the selection process be random as well. In real life, jurists are often interviewed to make sure they are not biased in any way before they are formally accepted as members of the jury.

For us, I recommend that jurists be vetted by a joint team of the prosecutor and the defense. If one of the jurist candidates isn't acceptable to the other, they get tossed.

 

[Kamon's OOC]

That sounds like it'll be difficult to get a good number, lol. I'm not opposed to it, though.

 

[Eralam]

If I may interject for a moment:

Currently, war crimes on earth are handled by the International Criminal Court. The ICC is a permanent, treaty based organization given power to prosecute war crimes and crimes against humanity by treaty members. As the name implies, it is an international organization, and all those who are signatories of the treaty are bound by to abide by it.

So in the hypothetical case of an American officer giving an order that led to the deaths of American noncombatants, it is likely that the accused would face both criminal charges in the US and would still stand in front of the ICC. The UCMJ covers disciplinary actions for military members, but also allows for civilian and international jurisdictions to try the accused as well. In the event that both find the defendant guilty, I want to say the precedent is that they first serve their sentence for the civilian body, before being turned over to Ft. Leavenworth.

It would not be unreasonable for the various factions on Chaos to form a body like this, especially after the events that were alleged to have taken place. It wouldn't even be entirely unreasonable for hostile groups to sign onto the same treaty; the laws of war, after all, are designed to protect everyone equally. However, for the sake of a trial, it's unlikely that there would be any Mandalorians present on the jury, and there certainly wouldn't be a Mandalorian judge. That's just silly.

One of the most important aspects of the ICC is that it establishes both the rights of the accused and the rights of victims. The accused is presumed innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt. The victims are allowed to offer testimony, and are made privy to the proceedings. In other words, they're allowed to see what's going on, in order to ensure that they can't cry foul in the event that the defendant is found not guilty.

In this case, rather than a trial by jury, which would be nearly impossible given the various OOC and IC ties to the defendant and the fact that finding 12 people who can be arsed to sit through a trial and offer an impartial opinion is a forlorn hope, I recommend using a panel of 5 judges. The judges needn't necessarily be impartial; again, it's impossible to fully separate IC and OOC. But they need to be individuals of integrity and levelheadedness. As the Grandmaster of the Jedi Order, I would recommend [member="Corvus Raaf"] as the head judge, with two judges from the GR and one each from the SSC and the GA. The courtroom would be liberally seeded with ysalamiri to prevent Force use from anyone within 100 meters of the building. I recommend Corvus not because I know her, (I don't believe I've ever actually interacted with her on any level,) but because the Jedi Order is at least in theory a body devoted to justice. And as they no longer have close ties with the Republic, it would be difficult to level accusations of bias.

The prosecution and defense would be handled in the normal manner. The prosecutor will be picked by the state, and typically the defendant is free to choose their own defense team. They will each be allowed to choose their own witnesses. Again, with ysalmiri present, one needn't fear undue influence from Force users, so no need for the special cubicle. Each is given the opportunity to cross examine. They are also allowed to present evidence and consult experts. Any evidence found must be presented to both the prosecution and defense, in order to allow them the opportunity to prepare for it.

If done right, this could be an amazing opportunity for RP and could help strengthen the relationship between the GR and its allies. On top of that, it could even allow for something resembling laws of warfare, which is nice.

 

[Popo]

However, for the sake of a trial, it's unlikely that there would be any Mandalorians present on the jury, and there certainly wouldn't be a Mandalorian judge. That's just silly.

While having no mandos on the jury may be a good idea, I suggest at the very least making requests for any data they may or may not have. Otherwise, there's the issue that they may see the trial as a sham IC'ly. Can't hurt to at least reach out for information in an official capacity for reasons to try Ali Hadrix. I think they'll want her head on a stick still, or at least mailed to them and gift wrapped, but at least showing that IC'ly the claims are being taken seriously is going to go a long way towards better relations down the line.

 

[Kamon's OOC]

[member="Popo"]
*was planning to call some as witnesses*

 

[The End Narrator]

I'll preface anything I say with the fact that I haven't read a single post of the Invasion, so have no idea who did what to whom. But I understand logic (I think) and that ought to be relevant regardless.

So...(no I haven't shaken the habit, yet)...here are some thoughts. Just opinions. Not facts, merely what occurs to me as I read this thread:

1. A GR military person has killed people on a GR planet. Not the invading forces. A planet the Mandalorians were Invading. If at any point I get the facts wrong, forgive me (and correct me)...this is what I have gleaned from this thread.

2. The Mandalorians have taken exception to this

3. There is a view that people from outside the GR would make the best jurors as...it would make the GR look better than it has of late

OK, here are my thoughts.

1. In real-life, this would be an internal affair. If the Russians invaded Alaska and an American officer gave an order that killed innocents (including Russians who were resident - and therefore citizens of the US) - the US would politely ask the rest of the world to keep its nose out. And I presume most people see the US as broadly the good guys here?

2. This bit I don't entirely understand - so am probably missing something. In the above scenario, I doubt the US would care what the Russians think - they're at war with them. They've just invaded Alaska.

3. If the GA and SSC combined decide on justice, I'm unsure how this looks good on the GR. If anyone points to the trial as a show that the GR are not monsters, people would rightly point out it took other Governments to make justice happen. And what happened to the notion that justice is blind? The UK legal system is based upon it (even the statue on the Old Bailey is blindfolded for this very reason). You shouldn't need independent jurors. A galactic Republic ought to find its own unbiased jury.

Please note:

Am I saying don't go down this route? Of course not. I have no horse in the race - other than a desire to see justice done (as any citizen or servant of the Republic would). Innocents should be absolved and the guilty should be punished.

My lack of understanding (and therefore post) is the (to me anyway) lack of logic applied to some of the proposals set out.

Thanks for letting me ramble on

#saidmypiece
#I'llgonow

I'm going to interject now.

Let's put the civilians aside.

She is responsible (Let's stop with the silly nonsense out of character and saying allegedly, because it's plastered everywhere to include a tag in my former characters direction as well as that of [member="Popo"] that did not register because of copy and paste as opposed to @Membername.) for the death of a Jedi Master. None of you had any knowledge in-character which side Aaralyn was on, what she was doing there (Beyond helping civilians.) or anything to go on. Nothing. So the Jedi Order is going to just throw it onto the Galactic Republic and go: "Yup, we're not going to touch it." I find that rather disturbing.

I also find it disturbing that the Jedi Order save for [member="Ryan Korr"] has done nothing but been a stalwart defender of these actions. You do need a third party who is impartial and has no ties to either the GR or the Jedi Order - frankly, all of you are biased beyond all belief and every sentiment wreaks of it.

Personally, the expectations and outcome is low of what is going to come from this given the past attempts at trying people within the Republic by individual PCs within the Republic. (Alyesa vs Lasedri with Corvus and Kian Karr being judges)

It tends to be super biased and they've already made up their mind on how they want it to go.

 

[Eralam]

Calling Mandos as witnesses or requesting data from them would be completely in line with the spirit of the thing, so long as both sides get access to the data and the witnesses are under oath.

 

[Ali Hadrix]

Eralam's presented a great amount of good information that will be invaluable in crafting this story, and I think a mixture of his and Mantic's frameworks are our best bet at shaping things well.

One point I feel must be clear is that I retain the right to decide what happens to my character.

This statement in particular concerned me:

...But, I believe if we want to not be just putting on a show, SSC and GA jurors are the way to go. We need to be serious about this. ICly, and OOCly, we need to show people that the Republic can be better than what it has been of late. This whole thing is very, very important to that.

We are, of course, putting on a show. This is not an OOC situation and is to be taken purely IC for the intent of writing an enjoyable, collaborative story. I cannot stress enough that I will not participate in any story surrounding this that is based on OOC motives or views. I would ask that all wishing to be involved remember that or recuse themselves from participation to avoid disruption.

Like a defender taking a hit in a battle: An opponent may not agree with the amount of damage taken, but that is for the defendant's writer to decide. I personally do not agree with Ali's guilt; I specifically designed the act OOC to keep her out of it, and is why I created Kol'k Oto and the others in the first place. Similarly, I attempted to design the act well enough as to avoid undesirable civilian casualties. This was turned on its head, which is fine, providing the story with more depth. As long as there are no OOC issues here (anyone is free to step forward if there are), then this should not be a problem.

The Verpine Delegation and Captain Heln: My intention was for these characters to be held responsible for the actions they took. Drawing Ali into the situation was not what I originally intended, but has been a pleasant twist to the story. However, I wish for the focus to remain on those literally responsible, and don't merely want to forget Kol'k Oto or their fellow delegates that I crafted for this story. [member=Ryan Korr] You left Captain Heln alive, if I remember correctly?
My intent would be for Ali to find vindication, and Kol'k Oto and the other delegates to then be judged as well and convicted. And as long as the verdicts are determined OOC to facilitate story-telling, then we do not have to be so exclusive in selecting our judges (though Eralam did have a solid start) as they'll be serving the story, rather than their writers being utilized to determine judgment.

[member=Popo]

That is certainly something a government would strive to do; make clear to the Mandalorians that while they cannot sit in judgment, they will be included as ardently as possible, particularly in evidence gathering and sharing (as the Mandalorians may want to conduct their own independent trial in absence of Ali...not sure what that's called, can't remember)

 

[Kamon's OOC]

[member="Eralam"]
Naturally I have no problem sharing evidence.

[member="Ali Hadrix"]
It is IC and OOC. This is a clear fact that cannot be denied. Your actions and the like are not the OOC issue, but like it or not, RPers are people with opinions, and the GR is STILL viewed negatively because of things like this happening. Yes I realize this was not your intent. Other people think it was. So, yeah, there is OOC perception of this faction involved. There always is.

People already think we are going Empire...

 

[The End Narrator]

I think everyone understands that you decide what happens to your character [member="Ali Hadrix"] but ultimately you can't handwave this away and start tossing this on NPCs and act like this never happened.

Well, I mean you can and then watch the fireworks from afar when the entire Galaxy comes crushing down on what is left of the Republic.

Note: No one is going to force anything on your character. We all abide by rules. IC actions have IC consequences though.

 

[Kamon's OOC]

Note: No one is going to force anything on your character. We all abide by rules. IC actions have IC consequences though.

This. We can have you thrown in jail or even ordered killed, but only you can accept it. You can always escape or something. We can't force you to do anything.

 

[Ali Hadrix]

[member=Janira Fenni]

Not having been a highly active member of the GR for too long, I can't speak to past actions/threads/etc. But I feel I did a fairly solid job placing boundaries on the act. Someone found a loose thread and they pulled on it; but that was someone else's intention, not mine, and that should very much matter.

[member=Aaralyn Rekali]

Simply because I am not willing to assign guilt to my character, which is what you want, does not mean I am hand-waving anything. As I stated before, the IC situation is designed for responsibility to fall upon the shoulders of specific NPC's I crafted for the background story; Kol'k Oto first and foremost. It is unfair to tell me what my intentions were and were not, and what the results should be. If anything it is a collaborative effort (as shown by the IC reactions of some characters). And whilst IC actions do have IC consequences, no one's IC reactions to Kol'k Oto's actions were determined for them.

 

[Jack Sparrow]

Has anyone mentioned bringing a Mandalorian representative in as a neutral observer (not a testifying witness one way or the other) to ensure that he or she don't see any shenanigans going on? Someone without a specific vendetta, that is? It does directly concern them, and I do think having one on-hand would be in our best interests, long-term. Otherwise they can cry foul all the way to the danger zone.

 

[Kamon's OOC]

[member="Ali Hadrix"]
On an OOC level it does, but also doesnt. You had no intention of seeing civilians harmed, but you vented atmosphere on a civilian mining station. On an OOC level, people don't like seeing the lightside factions, in this case only us, doing such a thing.

 

[Ali Hadrix]

[member="Ali Hadrix"]
On an OOC level it does, but also doesnt. You had no intention of seeing civilians harmed, but you vented atmosphere on a civilian mining station. On an OOC level, people don't like seeing the lightside factions, in this case only us, doing such a thing.

That's a great point, one I agree with whole-heartedly. That's why I crafted Kol'k Oto. My issue is not that people are taking issue with the act, my issue is that they're focusing their attention at the wrong character, and that it seems to be intentional. This IC zealotry and thirst for justice and vengeance could (and should/was intended to) fall upon Kol'k Oto. Choosing my PC as the focus is an intentional OOC choice considering I did everything in my post I could to keep Ali away from the situation, and writers should at least admit that.

 

[Ali Hadrix]

For additional clarification:

I find no reason why a character or two here and there wouldn't hold Ali Hadrix responsible as she is Supreme Commander. I would expect that of characters that are emotionally fixated on victims, such as the Rekali family characters. But for every single character to form the same disconnected conclusion with such veracity and no deviation? The primary fixation should be on Kol'k Oto, and that is what I'm striving to ensure; vindication for Ali, condemnation for Kol'k Oto. The fact that they were NPC's and Ali is a PC should have nothing to do with it, and I'm getting the impression some of the focus on Ali is a result of people thinking that NPC's aren't juicy enough of a target.

 

[Kamon's OOC]

[member="Ali Hadrix"]
ICly you did issue an order to some troopers to vent sections of the station if they were lost. Then the verpine did so in the hangars. That's why we are coming after you. Plus, as Supreme Commander (still hate that rank and don't think it fits the Republic) ultimately you are responsible for actions in a military engagement. The extent of that responsibility is yet to be determined.

 

[Tydeus of Tion]

Typical pairs, okay? Get to front line defensive areas outside the hangars and any other access points. Mount your defenses there. If you lose ground, retreat and seal it off behind you, then use the overrides to vent the lost sections to space.

 

[The End Narrator]

[member=Janira Fenni]

Not having been a highly active member of the GR for too long, I can't speak to past actions/threads/etc. But I feel I did a fairly solid job placing boundaries on the act. Someone found a loose thread and they pulled on it; but that was someone else's intention, not mine, and that should very much matter.

[member=Aaralyn Rekali]

Simply because I am not willing to assign guilt to my character, which is what you want, does not mean I am hand-waving anything. As I stated before, the IC situation is designed for responsibility to fall upon the shoulders of specific NPC's I crafted for the background story; Kol'k Oto first and foremost. It is unfair to tell me what my intentions were and were not, and what the results should be. If anything it is a collaborative effort (as shown by the IC reactions of some characters). And whilst IC actions do have IC consequences, no one's IC reactions to Kol'k Oto's actions were determined for them.

I'm just going to look at that last part and scratch my head. I don't want you to do anything your character wouldn't do, now you should take responsibility for your actions mate. However, you do whatever your character would do - that is, keep denying it all day long.

Please also use the @Mention as I'm not getting your tags.

[member="Ryan Korr"]

 

[Popo]

That is certainly something a government would strive to do; make clear to the Mandalorians that while they cannot sit in judgment, they will be included as ardently as possible, particularly in evidence gathering and sharing (as the Mandalorians may want to conduct their own independent trial in absence of Ali...not sure what that's called, can't remember)

You do realize that if anything but Ali Hadrix, IC'ly, being hit with capital punishment/life in prison/exiled/had the book thrown at her from a hypervelocity cannon isn't going to fly with the mandos in a trial setting? And that the Republic has two options to stop or slow any war with the mandos, the alternative being that the Republic hand Ali Hadrix over to the Mandalorians?

If neither of these options are taken, the Mandalorians will hit again and again. You think the One Sith was bad?

You don't know what's coming. Here's a hint on how the Mandos are now seeing a prolonged war with the Republic:

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Spoiler

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