The Situation (Hot War)

[Natasi Fortan]

[member="Aurelia Volcata"] [member="Cecily de Demici"]

I want your playbys to make out, sooo bad right now:

"Shut up."

"No you shut up."

*rips into each others clothing with reckless abandon*

"You bad girl! You're so hot."

"How dare you! You're the hot one here!"

*cheeks flush, music begins playing, wrestling ensues, and we fade to awesome*

Keep dreaming.

 

[Onrai]

[member="Aurelia Volcata"] [member="Cecily de Demici"]

I want your playbys to make out, sooo bad right now:

"Shut up."

"No you shut up."

*rips into each others clothing with reckless abandon*

"You bad girl! You're so hot."

"How dare you! You're the hot one here!"

*cheeks flush, music begins playing, wrestling ensues, and we fade to awesome*

And I thought I was the one who artificed the most smutty ideas in the Republic. You, good sir, have just taken my title.

 

[Ellie Mors]

[member="Jerek Zenduu"]
There was an idea proposed for a civil war within the OS, which I'm sure probably hasn't been considered yet, that of the options listed presented the death of the Dark Lord (in numerous versions of the options, actually) so that a new, relevant, leader would be put into place for the newer members of their faction. Depending on if that idea is even put to thought by the OS, something could be worked out so that whatever conflict might occur would provide a catalyst for such a rebellion within the OS while simultaneously letting the Republic sit back and let them fight it out (rather than try to join the fray and end up having two enemies come together under a united front temporarily) - resulting in a temporary cold war period.

 

[Jsc]

Keep dreaming.

 

[Jerek Zenduu]

[member="Jerek Zenduu"]
There was an idea proposed for a civil war within the OS, which I'm sure probably hasn't been considered yet, that of the options listed presented the death of the Dark Lord (in numerous versions of the options, actually) so that a new, relevant, leader would be put into place for the newer members of their faction. Depending on if that idea is even put to thought by the OS, something could be worked out so that whatever conflict might occur would provide a catalyst for such a rebellion within the OS while simultaneously letting the Republic sit back and let them fight it out (rather than try to join the fray and end up having two enemies come together under a united front temporarily) - resulting in a temporary cold war period.

Now that seems both sensible and realistic. Had that been presented a week ago, I doubt we'd be in this mess. Can we circle back to this and propose it?

 

[Cecily Demici]

To clarify for everyone, I will be the leader of the OS's parliament for a finite amount of time, at which point they will hold free elections and select my replacement. My work there is not permanent, they all know that, and it was a stipulation of my taking it up.

My position there has nothing to do with what I do here.

That being said, per your request, I have withdrawn from the negotiations and the OS have withdrawn their offer to wait 24 hours for the GR to come back to the table and have announced an invasion. There is now no hope of a Cold War and I for one am quite disillusioned here.

I congratulate those of you who fought so vehemently against a peaceful resolution. Not only have you successfully ensured there will not be one, but you have turned me into a cynic. Farewell, all. I trust these discussions will be fruitful.

 

[Cecily Demici]

Here is the chat log.

Spoiler: OSvGR Chat Log

[8/25/2015 7:25:43 AM | Edited 7:25:48 AM] Transkalpic Elder God: - Instead of invasions, we do multiple skirmishes
- Less high-stakes threads that make for heated spirits
- More emphasis on 'story' as opposed to the map game (not unlike the Cularin and Dorin excoriates, if anyone remembers)
- A chance to allow both factions an OOC reprieve from invasions
The above points are from the original PM, and could serve as a basis for hashing out the actual details of the Cold War.
If any of those don't sit well with you, or you have ideas of your own that aren't included in that list, feel free to share, and we'll work something out.
[8/26/2015 6:22:21 AM] James *Reverance*: paddles around
[8/27/2015 7:05:32 AM] Vendral Rae: Apologies for how long this is taking to decide if the faction wants it or not
[8/27/2015 7:06:36 AM] James *Reverance*: Oh, I thought you all had voted in approval of it already
[8/27/2015 7:07:44 AM] Vendral Rae: A new idea emerged to combine the two ideas
[8/27/2015 7:08:05 AM] Vendral Rae: Covert actions like the cold war and possible invasions
[8/27/2015 7:16:32 AM] James *Reverance*: Is that not something that is currently possible as it stands, without any form of voting or formal discussion?
[8/27/2015 7:17:32 AM] Vendral Rae: it is possible as things right now of course, but I'm giving the vote until tomorrow before closing it down and we can start hashing things out
[8/31/2015 2:05:50 PM] Vendral Rae: so since things seem to be that people want Cold War and to continue the current "hot" war, I figured both sides needed to be appeased and we need an IC justification for a Cold War to develop, so on that note
[8/31/2015 2:06:18 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: Uhh
[8/31/2015 2:06:29 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: Okay, can I just note something here?
[8/31/2015 2:07:07 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: The definition of cold war is just that; cold war. We can't agree to non-aggression, yet keep attacking each other in the same breath
[8/31/2015 2:07:16 PM] Vendral Rae: I know
[8/31/2015 2:07:28 PM] Vendral Rae: but we need some event to trigger both sides wanting a cold war
[8/31/2015 2:07:34 PM] Vendral Rae: since we missed the Netherworld
[8/31/2015 2:07:47 PM] Svenchilada: That's why we're declaring an invasion to be the cold war's catalyst.
[8/31/2015 2:07:54 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: 7 years of indecisive battles
[8/31/2015 2:07:59 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: And depleted resources
[8/31/2015 2:08:04 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: Isn't enough?
[8/31/2015 2:08:15 PM] Vendral Rae: but both sides wouldn't admit that they are close to exhaustion
[8/31/2015 2:08:33 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: How would an invasion help?
[8/31/2015 2:08:35 PM] Vendral Rae: it would need to be something decisive and big
[8/31/2015 2:08:58 PM] Svenchilada: We've had two invasions since. I think the Netherworld argument is kinda spent.
[8/31/2015 2:09:53 PM] James *Reverance*: We can have something decisive without using the boards definition of an invasion... Right?
[8/31/2015 2:11:01 PM] Vendral Rae: I can't think of anything that would be truly decisive in amounts of men, resources, ships all lost at once than an invasion
[8/31/2015 2:11:36 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: I don't think any invasion to date has been RPd as having that effect
[8/31/2015 2:11:48 PM] Svenchilada: Who says we can't change things up, then?
[8/31/2015 2:11:51 PM] James *Reverance*: The only difference between an invasion and skirmish is that a planet is on the line. But skirmishes can have the exact same expanse.
[8/31/2015 2:11:55 PM] Svenchilada: Might be nice to introduce something new.
[8/31/2015 2:12:12 PM] James *Reverance*: So I agree, who says we can't change things up?
[8/31/2015 2:12:40 PM] Vendral Rae: the problem with trying to use a skirmish to make something decisive is a skirmish is too small of a scale
[8/31/2015 2:13:02 PM] James *Reverance*: Only if you want it to be.
[8/31/2015 2:13:14 PM] James *Reverance*: A skirmish is as big as you elect.
[8/31/2015 2:14:28 PM] James *Reverance*: And if the point is to have a pre determined end, I don't understand the need for the invasion over the skirmish.
[8/31/2015 2:15:07 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: Nobody would agree to play an invasion with a predetermined end
[8/31/2015 2:15:15 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: Not with planets on the line
[8/31/2015 2:15:26 PM] Svenchilada: There is no predetermined victor.
[8/31/2015 2:15:31 PM] Vendral Rae: the predetermined end is a cold war develops, not who wins the battle
[8/31/2015 2:22:50 PM] Svenchilada: https://docs.google....RnVMEnqRc0/edit
[8/31/2015 2:32:38 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: I see your terms
[8/31/2015 2:32:42 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: and raise you these
[8/31/2015 2:32:43 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing
[8/31/2015 2:34:39 PM] Vendral Rae: I can't condone a PvP only invasion, I would be cutting too many people who might want to join out of it
[8/31/2015 2:35:05 PM] Svenchilada: Plus it doesn't really scream 'huge battle'.
[8/31/2015 2:35:54 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: That is actually not the case. It was the reasoning for the terms as they were on Mirit, and the people who would end up "cut out" by these terms were extremely few in number. i.e., for the NPC objective, a single (1) GR member participated, the rest were all allies.
[8/31/2015 2:36:09 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: Second reason for above terms; I don't think any of you were around for the judging of Mirit
[8/31/2015 2:36:14 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: but I can tell you this
[8/31/2015 2:36:19 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): it can be a huge battle if we write it that way
[8/31/2015 2:36:52 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: it was a headache for everyone involved, during the invasion itself, and during the judging process doubly so. It was also additional work for the RPJ team.
[8/31/2015 2:37:08 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: In contrast, the recent invasion of Ziost
[8/31/2015 2:37:12 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: SSC vs. Primeval
[8/31/2015 2:37:23 PM] Vendral Rae: I know I was in that invasion
[8/31/2015 2:37:31 PM] Vendral Rae: it felt lacking
[8/31/2015 2:37:32 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: had zero reports, and nothing ever needed to go up to FL level
[8/31/2015 2:37:48 PM] Vendral Rae: I can't do a PvP only invasion
[8/31/2015 2:38:39 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: Mirit was supposed to accomodate all three aspects of invasion RP
[8/31/2015 2:38:43 PM] Svenchilada: In contrast, the Mando/Primeval, Rebel/TU invasions had similar/identical terms. And led to some of the worst RP of all time.
[8/31/2015 2:38:53 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: and as I stated above, only one member from GR showed up for NPC play.
[8/31/2015 2:38:59 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: No, they did not.
[8/31/2015 2:39:33 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: Both Mando vs. Primeval and RA vs. TU had NPCs weighing in on the victories
[8/31/2015 2:39:44 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: here, we eschew that problem completely
[8/31/2015 2:40:18 PM] Vendral Rae: there either needs to be fleeting or a ground battle with the PvP, or both
[8/31/2015 2:40:24 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: why
[8/31/2015 2:41:41 PM] Vendral Rae: makes for a better story, gives people more avenue to RP even if people don't want to sign up for it, actually gives reason to the items and NPC units and ships and tech that get subbed for use in battles
[8/31/2015 2:41:51 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: Telti and Ziost, both PvP only, were absolute heaven to play
[8/31/2015 2:42:05 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: in contrast to Mirit
[8/31/2015 2:42:06 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): The story can be told through the flavor of NPCs
[8/31/2015 2:42:10 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): and ships in the background
[8/31/2015 2:42:15 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: or Mando vs. Primeval, if we want to drag that in
[8/31/2015 2:42:24 PM] Vendral Rae: background noise is not the same as actually controlling the action
[8/31/2015 2:42:29 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: I was on judging teams for both
[8/31/2015 2:42:32 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: and I can tell you right now
[8/31/2015 2:42:36 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: you do not want to be there
[8/31/2015 2:42:43 PM] Vendral Rae: let me be the judge of that
[8/31/2015 2:42:44 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: NPC muddy the waters like all hell
[8/31/2015 2:42:59 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): I was on the judging team as well
[8/31/2015 2:43:05 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: You can't set a clean victory
[8/31/2015 2:43:06 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): and I concur with Vrag
[8/31/2015 2:43:27 PM] Vendral Rae: i'm pretty certain our terms layout exactly how to get a clearcut victory
[8/31/2015 2:43:30 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: lines get blurred, and then you spend five days arguing over what even counts as a victory in NPC vs NPC
[8/31/2015 2:43:35 PM] Vendral Rae: in both fleeting and a ground battle
[8/31/2015 2:43:36 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): it took too long to judge and ended up being too contentious
[8/31/2015 2:43:54 PM] Vendral Rae: and PvP does not get contentious?
[8/31/2015 2:43:58 PM] Svenchilada: ^
[8/31/2015 2:44:06 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): "quality and creativity" are very subjective victory qualifications
[8/31/2015 2:44:21 PM] Vendral Rae: but damage and who holds more of the city are not
[8/31/2015 2:44:23 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: PvP is far less contentious than NPC
[8/31/2015 2:44:27 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: yes, they are
[8/31/2015 2:44:33 PM] Vendral Rae: how so?
[8/31/2015 2:44:40 PM] Vendral Rae: damage is easily quantifiable
[8/31/2015 2:44:44 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: no, it is not.
[8/31/2015 2:44:51 PM] Vendral Rae: who controls more on a map is easy to determine
[8/31/2015 2:45:01 PM] Vendral Rae: how is damage not easy to quantify?
[8/31/2015 2:45:15 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: and if people take no damage to their NPC units?
[8/31/2015 2:45:24 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: have fun judging that one.
[8/31/2015 2:45:31 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: Duels are simple
[8/31/2015 2:45:38 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: they are clean cut more often than not
[8/31/2015 2:45:45 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: and most importantly, they focus on individual people
[8/31/2015 2:45:46 PM] Vendral Rae: and what happens if in a duel someone doesn't take any damage either?
[8/31/2015 2:45:56 PM] Svenchilada: ^
[8/31/2015 2:45:58 PM] Vendral Rae: seen that happen before too
[8/31/2015 2:46:16 PM] Vendral Rae: and focusing on individual people does not make an epic battle
[8/31/2015 2:46:17 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: with NPC battles, you get to deal with massive amounts of troops, exchange rates, shields, non shields, and what have you
[8/31/2015 2:46:23 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): look you guys can't possibly be arguing that pvp battles are the same to judge as npc and fleet battles
[8/31/2015 2:46:28 PM] Vendral Rae: epic duel sure, but battle to actually determine the course of nations, no
[8/31/2015 2:46:41 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: and spending two weeks on judging does not an epic battle make.
[8/31/2015 2:47:11 PM] Svenchilada: Telti wasn't exactly an immediate judgment.
[8/31/2015 2:47:30 PM] Vendral Rae: and no, PvP and NPC battles have completely different ways to judge them
[8/31/2015 2:47:44 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: Yes, and one is far messier than the other.
[8/31/2015 2:47:46 PM] Vendral Rae: PvP doesn't even need to be judged at admin level, players can handle that just fine
[8/31/2015 2:47:59 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): Ord Mirit
[8/31/2015 2:48:01 PM] Vendral Rae: which we pointed out
[8/31/2015 2:48:01 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: exactly.
[8/31/2015 2:48:03 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: see the point?
[8/31/2015 2:48:04 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): was a nightmare in more ways than one
[8/31/2015 2:48:12 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: as opposed to NPC on the ground and fleeting
[8/31/2015 2:48:13 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): we had a huge problem up front
[8/31/2015 2:48:15 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): with NPC counts
[8/31/2015 2:48:38 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): it took us forever just to agree on people's npcs
[8/31/2015 2:48:40 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): and even then
[8/31/2015 2:48:44 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): some broke the rules
[8/31/2015 2:48:51 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): and entered npcs that were not allowed
[8/31/2015 2:49:16 PM] Vendral Rae: oh I noticed
[8/31/2015 2:49:42 PM] Vendral Rae: it happens when units are too small and no one wants to lose their stuff
[8/31/2015 2:50:02 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: NPC objectives
[8/31/2015 2:50:05 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: have proven to be hell
[8/31/2015 2:50:09 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: in every singular invasion
[8/31/2015 2:50:12 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: where they were used.
[8/31/2015 2:50:13 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: period.
[8/31/2015 2:50:19 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: no exceptions.
[8/31/2015 2:50:33 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: Kashyyyk, Wayland, Ord Mirit
[8/31/2015 2:50:56 PM] James *Reverance*: Pvp is easier to judge and less drama than npc, that's just the fact of the matter. Take it from someone who has been a part of every judgment since Manaan for GR vs OS.
[8/31/2015 2:51:16 PM] Vendral Rae: Rev, I won't agree to a PvP only invasion
[8/31/2015 2:51:29 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): and telti might have had some contentious judging but our members loved it
[8/31/2015 2:51:37 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): and at the end of the day, it's really about the members
[8/31/2015 2:51:41 PM] James *Reverance*: That sounds entirely uncompromising.
[8/31/2015 2:51:42 PM] Vendral Rae: and I need to take into account what my members want
[8/31/2015 2:51:47 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: yes.
[8/31/2015 2:51:49 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): well considering
[8/31/2015 2:51:58 PM] James *Reverance*: So what our members want doesn't evidently matter.
[8/31/2015 2:51:59 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): only 1 GR person showed up for the NPC battle at ord mirit
[8/31/2015 2:52:06 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: which was done at mirit, and only a fraction of people went to npc and fleeting
[8/31/2015 2:52:08 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): the response seemed lukewarm
[8/31/2015 2:52:09 PM] Vendral Rae: but your members do get what you want
[8/31/2015 2:52:12 PM] Vendral Rae: there is PvP
[8/31/2015 2:52:30 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: okay, numbers time
[8/31/2015 2:52:31 PM] Vendral Rae: it adds, not subtracts from the story
[8/31/2015 2:52:32 PM] James *Reverance*: Who, from the pubs, was involved in the ground side of the invasion last time?
[8/31/2015 2:52:36 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: say, for simplicity's sake
[8/31/2015 2:52:42 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: 100% of OS wants PvP
[8/31/2015 2:52:53 PM] Svenchilada: Ali Hadrix and Solan Charr
[8/31/2015 2:52:59 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: solan charr is not GR
[8/31/2015 2:53:04 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: and he posted 3 times
[8/31/2015 2:53:05 PM] Vendral Rae: he is a member
[8/31/2015 2:53:06 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): he was vitae at the time
[8/31/2015 2:53:15 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: regardless, his participation was minimal
[8/31/2015 2:53:18 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: and carried no impact
[8/31/2015 2:53:20 PM] James *Reverance*: So Ali, let's not mince over multi factions.
[8/31/2015 2:53:25 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: 1
[8/31/2015 2:53:26 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: person
[8/31/2015 2:53:30 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: out of a whole faction.
[8/31/2015 2:53:32 PM] Vendral Rae: and if that hadn't been there, she would have bene left out
[8/31/2015 2:53:39 PM] James *Reverance*: We had one ally amongst our entire force on the ground.
[8/31/2015 2:54:06 PM] James *Reverance*: We played by the request of the GR last time around and it blew up during judgments and was a miserable experience.
[8/31/2015 2:54:07 PM] Vendral Rae: or the people who want to fleet, they get left out to in PvP only
[8/31/2015 2:54:27 PM | Edited 2:54:58 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: 100% of OS wants PvP

80% of GR has proven to do PvP
15% of GR has proven to fleet
5% of GR has proven to NPC
[8/31/2015 2:54:42 PM] Vendral Rae: you're missing 5%
[8/31/2015 2:54:53 PM] Svenchilada: LOL
[8/31/2015 2:54:53 PM] Vendral Rae: or rather added
[8/31/2015 2:55:02 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: I'll survive
[8/31/2015 2:55:07 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: not the point
[8/31/2015 2:55:13 PM] Vendral Rae: but then I cut out that 20% of people
[8/31/2015 2:55:16 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: no
[8/31/2015 2:55:18 PM] Vendral Rae: if we do only PvP
[8/31/2015 2:55:22 PM] Vendral Rae: oh?
[8/31/2015 2:55:25 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: we can do that thing called compromising
[8/31/2015 2:55:31 PM] Vendral Rae: indeed
[8/31/2015 2:55:32 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: where we do PvP
[8/31/2015 2:55:34 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: and fleeting
[8/31/2015 2:55:42 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: since evidently, they hold the most interest, cross-faction
[8/31/2015 2:56:06 PM] James *Reverance*: I'm not agreeing to an invasion that has ground npcs, not two invasions in a row put forth by the GR.
[8/31/2015 2:56:33 PM] Vendral Rae: then I propose we combine our fleeting term with your pvp term
[8/31/2015 2:56:37 PM] Svenchilada: Ground battle terms from Ord Mirit eliminated a lot of players actually. There were those who wanted to RP pilots and were banned by the OS.
[8/31/2015 2:56:53 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: pilots were free to join fleeting, I believe
[8/31/2015 2:57:06 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): yeah and we allowed gunships as well
[8/31/2015 2:57:13 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: but let's not get too held up in details of invasions past
[8/31/2015 2:57:18 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: we're discussing this one now.
[8/31/2015 2:57:25 PM] Svenchilada: Why not? That's what we've been discussing this whole chat.
[8/31/2015 2:57:26 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): agreed
[8/31/2015 2:57:27 PM] James *Reverance*: Please don't throw accusations out if you weren't part of the discussion.
[8/31/2015 2:57:34 PM] Vendral Rae: guys
[8/31/2015 2:57:43 PM] Vendral Rae: let's let the past be the past
[8/31/2015 2:57:53 PM] Vendral Rae: that's the whole point of this soon to come Cold War yes?
[8/31/2015 2:58:05 PM] Vendral Rae: I can agree to fleeting and PvP
[8/31/2015 2:58:36 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: okay, but I want to make a point here
[8/31/2015 2:59:05 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: if we have a total of 200, 100 is GR and 100 is OS
[8/31/2015 2:59:13 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: and 180 of those want pvp
[8/31/2015 2:59:19 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: and 15 want fleeting
[8/31/2015 2:59:23 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: we have a problem
[8/31/2015 2:59:27 PM] Vendral Rae: i wont cut out those 15
[8/31/2015 2:59:30 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: we're equating
[8/31/2015 2:59:33 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: no, I'm not finished
[8/31/2015 2:59:58 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: we're equating two vastly different objectives (in scope)
[8/31/2015 3:00:04 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: despite the participation disparity
[8/31/2015 3:00:07 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: so if you have
[8/31/2015 3:00:12 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: 15 people for 1 win
[8/31/2015 3:00:16 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: and 180 for second win
[8/31/2015 3:00:30 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: then the victory terms are awfully skewed
[8/31/2015 3:00:37 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): that's a really good point
[8/31/2015 3:01:17 PM] Vendral Rae: and those objectives have been equated before
[8/31/2015 3:01:33 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: doesn't mean it was done well
[8/31/2015 3:01:36 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): but it doesn't make sense
[8/31/2015 3:01:43 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): if there are only 2 objectives
[8/31/2015 3:01:49 PM] Vendral Rae: then we need a third then
[8/31/2015 3:01:49 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: we can take this as a chance to improve on past invasions
[8/31/2015 3:01:52 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: why?
[8/31/2015 3:01:59 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: we can make 2 pvp objectives
[8/31/2015 3:02:02 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: and 1 fleeting
[8/31/2015 3:02:14 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: that's a proper balance across the member base
[8/31/2015 3:02:31 PM] Vendral Rae: only if the two PvP objectives are completely different from one another
[8/31/2015 3:02:33 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: that way, the fleeters get to fleet
[8/31/2015 3:02:37 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: and their voices count
[8/31/2015 3:02:44 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: and the majority of the people, who want PvP
[8/31/2015 3:02:46 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: also count.
[8/31/2015 3:02:48 PM] Vendral Rae: they cant both be 1v1 fights determine
[8/31/2015 3:03:00 PM] James *Reverance*: That's fine
[8/31/2015 3:03:08 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: sure, we can shake it up a bit
[8/31/2015 3:03:17 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: for diversity and different interests
[8/31/2015 3:03:32 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: but you can't equate the efforts of 180 people to those of 15
[8/31/2015 3:03:37 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: it just doesn't add up.
[8/31/2015 3:05:06 PM] Svenchilada: Then we will do a starfighter/gunship PVP.
[8/31/2015 3:05:15 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: that's not PvP
[8/31/2015 3:05:22 PM] Svenchilada: It is.
[8/31/2015 3:05:24 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: it's fleeting
[8/31/2015 3:05:27 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: with a different name
[8/31/2015 3:05:29 PM | Edited 3:05:36 PM] Vendral Rae: kashyyyk had it if i remember right
[8/31/2015 3:05:33 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: and still falls under the 15
[8/31/2015 3:06:25 PM] Svenchilada: Can't promote anything if you never do it.
[8/31/2015 3:06:33 PM] Svenchilada: That's why the populations are low.
[8/31/2015 3:06:49 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: that's irrelevant to the discussion at hand
[8/31/2015 3:06:59 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: we're talking about how many interested people there are for that, currently
[8/31/2015 3:07:10 PM | Edited 3:07:20 PM] James *Reverance*: Sorry, not having an invasion with two fleeting objectives.
[8/31/2015 3:07:24 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: especially if one caters to maybe 5 members total
[8/31/2015 3:07:32 PM] Svenchilada: Then a speeder bike PVP.
[8/31/2015 3:07:33 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: we're trying to break up that 180
[8/31/2015 3:07:36 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: not the 15
[8/31/2015 3:07:52 PM] James *Reverance*: Umm
[8/31/2015 3:07:55 PM] Vendral Rae: what if it is an infiltration mission?
[8/31/2015 3:08:07 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: elaborate
[8/31/2015 3:08:25 PM] Vendral Rae: steal top secret droid designs from a facility, both sides send in a team and they fight it out
[8/31/2015 3:08:37 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: so
[8/31/2015 3:08:46 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: pvp?
[8/31/2015 3:09:05 PM] Vendral Rae: yes it would sort of be like that one objective the Mandos had at Wayland
[8/31/2015 3:09:10 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: ohgod.
[8/31/2015 3:09:15 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: if you mean objective C
[8/31/2015 3:09:15 PM] Vendral Rae: i said sorta
[8/31/2015 3:09:17 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: stop right there
[8/31/2015 3:09:19 PM] Transkalpic Elder God:
[8/31/2015 3:09:26 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: that was a "story" objective
[8/31/2015 3:09:31 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: and it is an utterly failed experiment
[8/31/2015 3:09:46 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: we failed to define clear victory terms, and it came back to bite us in the ass
[8/31/2015 3:09:46 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: so
[8/31/2015 3:09:51 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: learning experience says no
[8/31/2015 3:10:21 PM] Vendral Rae: then we define clear victory terms
[8/31/2015 3:10:27 PM] Vendral Rae: if that was the problem
[8/31/2015 3:10:31 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: of course
[8/31/2015 3:10:42 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: in which case it's no longer similar to obj C of wayland
[8/31/2015 3:10:44 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: but, tangent
[8/31/2015 3:10:47 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: currently we have
[8/31/2015 3:10:50 PM] Vendral Rae: hence why i said sorta like it
[8/31/2015 3:11:09 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: 1) fleeting
2) sneaky pvp in a droid facility (or some such)
3) duke it out pvp
[8/31/2015 3:12:46 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: 2) could be tighter and more regulated
3) could be more freeform (along the lines of the pvp terms put forth by the OS)
[8/31/2015 3:13:30 PM] Vendral Rae: i would say 2 could be that the teams fight it out over the designs, sort of like a capture the flag obj, except only one flag
[8/31/2015 3:13:39 PM] Vendral Rae: whoever gets it out and back to their transport wins
[8/31/2015 3:13:44 PM] Svenchilada: "Wins not awarded by matches, but by felled opponents."
Tell me when this ever happens.
[8/31/2015 3:14:04 PM] James *Reverance*: Leaves a lot of room for handwavium
[8/31/2015 3:14:06 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: felled and/or incapacitated
[8/31/2015 3:14:44 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: the person least likely to walk away from that duel, is what that means
[8/31/2015 3:14:58 PM] Svenchilada: That is not in the term.
[8/31/2015 3:15:04 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: because they're not final
[8/31/2015 3:15:09 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: they're terms we're still discussing
[8/31/2015 3:15:14 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: they're open to negotiation
[8/31/2015 3:15:51 PM] James *Reverance*: Part of terms is actually it's presentation on the board, with a pm. I've actually never discussed war terms over Skype.
[8/31/2015 3:16:19 PM] James *Reverance*: It allows a trail so that things can be followed for those currently not signed on.
[8/31/2015 3:16:41 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): yah it might be a little bit clearer to do it that way
[8/31/2015 3:16:56 PM] Vendral Rae: unfortunately, we also can only have 5 people in a PM
[8/31/2015 3:17:00 PM] Vendral Rae: we have two teams of three
[8/31/2015 3:17:09 PM] James *Reverance*: Six actually
[8/31/2015 3:17:09 PM] Vendral Rae: someone gets left out
[8/31/2015 3:17:14 PM] James *Reverance*: You and five invites
[8/31/2015 3:18:38 PM] James *Reverance*: It's only a problem when teams have more than the standard three admin
[8/31/2015 3:18:43 PM] Vendral Rae: do we want to move this discussion over then?
[8/31/2015 3:18:53 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: would be prudent
[8/31/2015 3:19:07 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: since we're clearly not gonna use this group chat for cold war discussions at this time
[8/31/2015 3:19:15 PM] Vendral Rae: not yet anyways
[8/31/2015 3:19:20 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: quite
[8/31/2015 4:05:59 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: A skirmish frees us of the map game weight
[8/31/2015 8:52:18 PM] Travot Ravenna: Late night at the school. Just for the record, I was at Objective C at Ord Mirit as Travot, a member of GR's Jedi Order. That's at least two members then between Ali and myself.
[8/31/2015 8:53:17 PM] James *Reverance*: We've moved past that now.
[8/31/2015 9:00:37 PM] Travot Ravenna: Thanks for letting me know James, I just got around to checking my PMs.
[8/31/2015 9:00:55 PM] James *Reverance*: Yep, no problemo

 

[Onrai]

[member="Cecily de Demici"]

...come on. You still had an opportunity to ensure that a peaceful resolution would occur. You're an excellent enough orator to persuade the belligerents to calm the fuck down and get back to the table - which I guarantee you will be the only way to ensure this ends without resulting issues.

The issues in question are... Well, I honestly don't have to think that much to figure out how things will go down. The One Sith's memberbase will be looked further down upon by the Republic, who will view them as nothing but assholes for further going after a faction still in the midst of reorganization, who have proven time and time again that they simply can't deal with invasions. The Republic will lose the invasion in question and end up giving up more territory - something the OS will capitalize on. People will start to turn on the Republic leadership OOC for allowing a constant string of failures to happen, and the faction shall be tossed into disarray once again. People will end up joining the Sith because they're winning, or worse, will simply quit the Republic because they feel there's no chance of saving the faction.

All roads lead to one conclusion - the complete and utter destruction of the Republic. Ask yourself this, everyone - is that what you want?

If not, then get back to the OOC table. Grab the OS representatives by the neck, chain them up on the other side, and tell them they aren't getting away until something peaceful is resolved and fucking sense and sensibility returns to everyone's head instead of passion spurring foolish actions in the heat of the moment.

 

[Cecily Demici]

[member="Enigma"]
Unfortunately, from what I am told, the ship has sailed on this issue and I am not willing to pull anymore strings or call out anymore favors to help the cause.

My role in this is over. But perhaps Aurelia would like to work with the OS to come to a solution? I think she would be an excellent candidate to take over my role in the negotiations. Perhaps she could go and see if they would give us some more time to get our ducks in a row before reaming us in another invasion?

 

[Ellie Mors]

Here is the chat log.

Spoiler: OSvGR Chat Log

[8/25/2015 7:25:43 AM | Edited 7:25:48 AM] Transkalpic Elder God: - Instead of invasions, we do multiple skirmishes
- Less high-stakes threads that make for heated spirits
- More emphasis on 'story' as opposed to the map game (not unlike the Cularin and Dorin excoriates, if anyone remembers)
- A chance to allow both factions an OOC reprieve from invasions
The above points are from the original PM, and could serve as a basis for hashing out the actual details of the Cold War.
If any of those don't sit well with you, or you have ideas of your own that aren't included in that list, feel free to share, and we'll work something out.
[8/26/2015 6:22:21 AM] James *Reverance*: paddles around
[8/27/2015 7:05:32 AM] Vendral Rae: Apologies for how long this is taking to decide if the faction wants it or not
[8/27/2015 7:06:36 AM] James *Reverance*: Oh, I thought you all had voted in approval of it already
[8/27/2015 7:07:44 AM] Vendral Rae: A new idea emerged to combine the two ideas
[8/27/2015 7:08:05 AM] Vendral Rae: Covert actions like the cold war and possible invasions
[8/27/2015 7:16:32 AM] James *Reverance*: Is that not something that is currently possible as it stands, without any form of voting or formal discussion?
[8/27/2015 7:17:32 AM] Vendral Rae: it is possible as things right now of course, but I'm giving the vote until tomorrow before closing it down and we can start hashing things out
[8/31/2015 2:05:50 PM] Vendral Rae: so since things seem to be that people want Cold War and to continue the current "hot" war, I figured both sides needed to be appeased and we need an IC justification for a Cold War to develop, so on that note
[8/31/2015 2:06:18 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: Uhh
[8/31/2015 2:06:29 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: Okay, can I just note something here?
[8/31/2015 2:07:07 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: The definition of cold war is just that; cold war. We can't agree to non-aggression, yet keep attacking each other in the same breath
[8/31/2015 2:07:16 PM] Vendral Rae: I know
[8/31/2015 2:07:28 PM] Vendral Rae: but we need some event to trigger both sides wanting a cold war
[8/31/2015 2:07:34 PM] Vendral Rae: since we missed the Netherworld
[8/31/2015 2:07:47 PM] Svenchilada: That's why we're declaring an invasion to be the cold war's catalyst.
[8/31/2015 2:07:54 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: 7 years of indecisive battles
[8/31/2015 2:07:59 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: And depleted resources
[8/31/2015 2:08:04 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: Isn't enough?
[8/31/2015 2:08:15 PM] Vendral Rae: but both sides wouldn't admit that they are close to exhaustion
[8/31/2015 2:08:33 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: How would an invasion help?
[8/31/2015 2:08:35 PM] Vendral Rae: it would need to be something decisive and big
[8/31/2015 2:08:58 PM] Svenchilada: We've had two invasions since. I think the Netherworld argument is kinda spent.
[8/31/2015 2:09:53 PM] James *Reverance*: We can have something decisive without using the boards definition of an invasion... Right?
[8/31/2015 2:11:01 PM] Vendral Rae: I can't think of anything that would be truly decisive in amounts of men, resources, ships all lost at once than an invasion
[8/31/2015 2:11:36 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: I don't think any invasion to date has been RPd as having that effect
[8/31/2015 2:11:48 PM] Svenchilada: Who says we can't change things up, then?
[8/31/2015 2:11:51 PM] James *Reverance*: The only difference between an invasion and skirmish is that a planet is on the line. But skirmishes can have the exact same expanse.
[8/31/2015 2:11:55 PM] Svenchilada: Might be nice to introduce something new.
[8/31/2015 2:12:12 PM] James *Reverance*: So I agree, who says we can't change things up?
[8/31/2015 2:12:40 PM] Vendral Rae: the problem with trying to use a skirmish to make something decisive is a skirmish is too small of a scale
[8/31/2015 2:13:02 PM] James *Reverance*: Only if you want it to be.
[8/31/2015 2:13:14 PM] James *Reverance*: A skirmish is as big as you elect.
[8/31/2015 2:14:28 PM] James *Reverance*: And if the point is to have a pre determined end, I don't understand the need for the invasion over the skirmish.
[8/31/2015 2:15:07 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: Nobody would agree to play an invasion with a predetermined end
[8/31/2015 2:15:15 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: Not with planets on the line
[8/31/2015 2:15:26 PM] Svenchilada: There is no predetermined victor.
[8/31/2015 2:15:31 PM] Vendral Rae: the predetermined end is a cold war develops, not who wins the battle
[8/31/2015 2:22:50 PM] Svenchilada: https://docs.google....RnVMEnqRc0/edit
[8/31/2015 2:32:38 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: I see your terms
[8/31/2015 2:32:42 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: and raise you these
[8/31/2015 2:32:43 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing
[8/31/2015 2:34:39 PM] Vendral Rae: I can't condone a PvP only invasion, I would be cutting too many people who might want to join out of it
[8/31/2015 2:35:05 PM] Svenchilada: Plus it doesn't really scream 'huge battle'.
[8/31/2015 2:35:54 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: That is actually not the case. It was the reasoning for the terms as they were on Mirit, and the people who would end up "cut out" by these terms were extremely few in number. i.e., for the NPC objective, a single (1) GR member participated, the rest were all allies.
[8/31/2015 2:36:09 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: Second reason for above terms; I don't think any of you were around for the judging of Mirit
[8/31/2015 2:36:14 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: but I can tell you this
[8/31/2015 2:36:19 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): it can be a huge battle if we write it that way
[8/31/2015 2:36:52 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: it was a headache for everyone involved, during the invasion itself, and during the judging process doubly so. It was also additional work for the RPJ team.
[8/31/2015 2:37:08 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: In contrast, the recent invasion of Ziost
[8/31/2015 2:37:12 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: SSC vs. Primeval
[8/31/2015 2:37:23 PM] Vendral Rae: I know I was in that invasion
[8/31/2015 2:37:31 PM] Vendral Rae: it felt lacking
[8/31/2015 2:37:32 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: had zero reports, and nothing ever needed to go up to FL level
[8/31/2015 2:37:48 PM] Vendral Rae: I can't do a PvP only invasion
[8/31/2015 2:38:39 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: Mirit was supposed to accomodate all three aspects of invasion RP
[8/31/2015 2:38:43 PM] Svenchilada: In contrast, the Mando/Primeval, Rebel/TU invasions had similar/identical terms. And led to some of the worst RP of all time.
[8/31/2015 2:38:53 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: and as I stated above, only one member from GR showed up for NPC play.
[8/31/2015 2:38:59 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: No, they did not.
[8/31/2015 2:39:33 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: Both Mando vs. Primeval and RA vs. TU had NPCs weighing in on the victories
[8/31/2015 2:39:44 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: here, we eschew that problem completely
[8/31/2015 2:40:18 PM] Vendral Rae: there either needs to be fleeting or a ground battle with the PvP, or both
[8/31/2015 2:40:24 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: why
[8/31/2015 2:41:41 PM] Vendral Rae: makes for a better story, gives people more avenue to RP even if people don't want to sign up for it, actually gives reason to the items and NPC units and ships and tech that get subbed for use in battles
[8/31/2015 2:41:51 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: Telti and Ziost, both PvP only, were absolute heaven to play
[8/31/2015 2:42:05 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: in contrast to Mirit
[8/31/2015 2:42:06 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): The story can be told through the flavor of NPCs
[8/31/2015 2:42:10 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): and ships in the background
[8/31/2015 2:42:15 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: or Mando vs. Primeval, if we want to drag that in
[8/31/2015 2:42:24 PM] Vendral Rae: background noise is not the same as actually controlling the action
[8/31/2015 2:42:29 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: I was on judging teams for both
[8/31/2015 2:42:32 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: and I can tell you right now
[8/31/2015 2:42:36 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: you do not want to be there
[8/31/2015 2:42:43 PM] Vendral Rae: let me be the judge of that
[8/31/2015 2:42:44 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: NPC muddy the waters like all hell
[8/31/2015 2:42:59 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): I was on the judging team as well
[8/31/2015 2:43:05 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: You can't set a clean victory
[8/31/2015 2:43:06 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): and I concur with Vrag
[8/31/2015 2:43:27 PM] Vendral Rae: i'm pretty certain our terms layout exactly how to get a clearcut victory
[8/31/2015 2:43:30 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: lines get blurred, and then you spend five days arguing over what even counts as a victory in NPC vs NPC
[8/31/2015 2:43:35 PM] Vendral Rae: in both fleeting and a ground battle
[8/31/2015 2:43:36 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): it took too long to judge and ended up being too contentious
[8/31/2015 2:43:54 PM] Vendral Rae: and PvP does not get contentious?
[8/31/2015 2:43:58 PM] Svenchilada: ^
[8/31/2015 2:44:06 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): "quality and creativity" are very subjective victory qualifications
[8/31/2015 2:44:21 PM] Vendral Rae: but damage and who holds more of the city are not
[8/31/2015 2:44:23 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: PvP is far less contentious than NPC
[8/31/2015 2:44:27 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: yes, they are
[8/31/2015 2:44:33 PM] Vendral Rae: how so?
[8/31/2015 2:44:40 PM] Vendral Rae: damage is easily quantifiable
[8/31/2015 2:44:44 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: no, it is not.
[8/31/2015 2:44:51 PM] Vendral Rae: who controls more on a map is easy to determine
[8/31/2015 2:45:01 PM] Vendral Rae: how is damage not easy to quantify?
[8/31/2015 2:45:15 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: and if people take no damage to their NPC units?
[8/31/2015 2:45:24 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: have fun judging that one.
[8/31/2015 2:45:31 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: Duels are simple
[8/31/2015 2:45:38 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: they are clean cut more often than not
[8/31/2015 2:45:45 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: and most importantly, they focus on individual people
[8/31/2015 2:45:46 PM] Vendral Rae: and what happens if in a duel someone doesn't take any damage either?
[8/31/2015 2:45:56 PM] Svenchilada: ^
[8/31/2015 2:45:58 PM] Vendral Rae: seen that happen before too
[8/31/2015 2:46:16 PM] Vendral Rae: and focusing on individual people does not make an epic battle
[8/31/2015 2:46:17 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: with NPC battles, you get to deal with massive amounts of troops, exchange rates, shields, non shields, and what have you
[8/31/2015 2:46:23 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): look you guys can't possibly be arguing that pvp battles are the same to judge as npc and fleet battles
[8/31/2015 2:46:28 PM] Vendral Rae: epic duel sure, but battle to actually determine the course of nations, no
[8/31/2015 2:46:41 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: and spending two weeks on judging does not an epic battle make.
[8/31/2015 2:47:11 PM] Svenchilada: Telti wasn't exactly an immediate judgment.
[8/31/2015 2:47:30 PM] Vendral Rae: and no, PvP and NPC battles have completely different ways to judge them
[8/31/2015 2:47:44 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: Yes, and one is far messier than the other.
[8/31/2015 2:47:46 PM] Vendral Rae: PvP doesn't even need to be judged at admin level, players can handle that just fine
[8/31/2015 2:47:59 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): Ord Mirit
[8/31/2015 2:48:01 PM] Vendral Rae: which we pointed out
[8/31/2015 2:48:01 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: exactly.
[8/31/2015 2:48:03 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: see the point?
[8/31/2015 2:48:04 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): was a nightmare in more ways than one
[8/31/2015 2:48:12 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: as opposed to NPC on the ground and fleeting
[8/31/2015 2:48:13 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): we had a huge problem up front
[8/31/2015 2:48:15 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): with NPC counts
[8/31/2015 2:48:38 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): it took us forever just to agree on people's npcs
[8/31/2015 2:48:40 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): and even then
[8/31/2015 2:48:44 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): some broke the rules
[8/31/2015 2:48:51 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): and entered npcs that were not allowed
[8/31/2015 2:49:16 PM] Vendral Rae: oh I noticed
[8/31/2015 2:49:42 PM] Vendral Rae: it happens when units are too small and no one wants to lose their stuff
[8/31/2015 2:50:02 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: NPC objectives
[8/31/2015 2:50:05 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: have proven to be hell
[8/31/2015 2:50:09 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: in every singular invasion
[8/31/2015 2:50:12 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: where they were used.
[8/31/2015 2:50:13 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: period.
[8/31/2015 2:50:19 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: no exceptions.
[8/31/2015 2:50:33 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: Kashyyyk, Wayland, Ord Mirit
[8/31/2015 2:50:56 PM] James *Reverance*: Pvp is easier to judge and less drama than npc, that's just the fact of the matter. Take it from someone who has been a part of every judgment since Manaan for GR vs OS.
[8/31/2015 2:51:16 PM] Vendral Rae: Rev, I won't agree to a PvP only invasion
[8/31/2015 2:51:29 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): and telti might have had some contentious judging but our members loved it
[8/31/2015 2:51:37 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): and at the end of the day, it's really about the members
[8/31/2015 2:51:41 PM] James *Reverance*: That sounds entirely uncompromising.
[8/31/2015 2:51:42 PM] Vendral Rae: and I need to take into account what my members want
[8/31/2015 2:51:47 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: yes.
[8/31/2015 2:51:49 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): well considering
[8/31/2015 2:51:58 PM] James *Reverance*: So what our members want doesn't evidently matter.
[8/31/2015 2:51:59 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): only 1 GR person showed up for the NPC battle at ord mirit
[8/31/2015 2:52:06 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: which was done at mirit, and only a fraction of people went to npc and fleeting
[8/31/2015 2:52:08 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): the response seemed lukewarm
[8/31/2015 2:52:09 PM] Vendral Rae: but your members do get what you want
[8/31/2015 2:52:12 PM] Vendral Rae: there is PvP
[8/31/2015 2:52:30 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: okay, numbers time
[8/31/2015 2:52:31 PM] Vendral Rae: it adds, not subtracts from the story
[8/31/2015 2:52:32 PM] James *Reverance*: Who, from the pubs, was involved in the ground side of the invasion last time?
[8/31/2015 2:52:36 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: say, for simplicity's sake
[8/31/2015 2:52:42 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: 100% of OS wants PvP
[8/31/2015 2:52:53 PM] Svenchilada: Ali Hadrix and Solan Charr
[8/31/2015 2:52:59 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: solan charr is not GR
[8/31/2015 2:53:04 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: and he posted 3 times
[8/31/2015 2:53:05 PM] Vendral Rae: he is a member
[8/31/2015 2:53:06 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): he was vitae at the time
[8/31/2015 2:53:15 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: regardless, his participation was minimal
[8/31/2015 2:53:18 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: and carried no impact
[8/31/2015 2:53:20 PM] James *Reverance*: So Ali, let's not mince over multi factions.
[8/31/2015 2:53:25 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: 1
[8/31/2015 2:53:26 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: person
[8/31/2015 2:53:30 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: out of a whole faction.
[8/31/2015 2:53:32 PM] Vendral Rae: and if that hadn't been there, she would have bene left out
[8/31/2015 2:53:39 PM] James *Reverance*: We had one ally amongst our entire force on the ground.
[8/31/2015 2:54:06 PM] James *Reverance*: We played by the request of the GR last time around and it blew up during judgments and was a miserable experience.
[8/31/2015 2:54:07 PM] Vendral Rae: or the people who want to fleet, they get left out to in PvP only
[8/31/2015 2:54:27 PM | Edited 2:54:58 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: 100% of OS wants PvP

80% of GR has proven to do PvP
15% of GR has proven to fleet
5% of GR has proven to NPC
[8/31/2015 2:54:42 PM] Vendral Rae: you're missing 5%
[8/31/2015 2:54:53 PM] Svenchilada: LOL
[8/31/2015 2:54:53 PM] Vendral Rae: or rather added
[8/31/2015 2:55:02 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: I'll survive
[8/31/2015 2:55:07 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: not the point
[8/31/2015 2:55:13 PM] Vendral Rae: but then I cut out that 20% of people
[8/31/2015 2:55:16 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: no
[8/31/2015 2:55:18 PM] Vendral Rae: if we do only PvP
[8/31/2015 2:55:22 PM] Vendral Rae: oh?
[8/31/2015 2:55:25 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: we can do that thing called compromising
[8/31/2015 2:55:31 PM] Vendral Rae: indeed
[8/31/2015 2:55:32 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: where we do PvP
[8/31/2015 2:55:34 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: and fleeting
[8/31/2015 2:55:42 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: since evidently, they hold the most interest, cross-faction
[8/31/2015 2:56:06 PM] James *Reverance*: I'm not agreeing to an invasion that has ground npcs, not two invasions in a row put forth by the GR.
[8/31/2015 2:56:33 PM] Vendral Rae: then I propose we combine our fleeting term with your pvp term
[8/31/2015 2:56:37 PM] Svenchilada: Ground battle terms from Ord Mirit eliminated a lot of players actually. There were those who wanted to RP pilots and were banned by the OS.
[8/31/2015 2:56:53 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: pilots were free to join fleeting, I believe
[8/31/2015 2:57:06 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): yeah and we allowed gunships as well
[8/31/2015 2:57:13 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: but let's not get too held up in details of invasions past
[8/31/2015 2:57:18 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: we're discussing this one now.
[8/31/2015 2:57:25 PM] Svenchilada: Why not? That's what we've been discussing this whole chat.
[8/31/2015 2:57:26 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): agreed
[8/31/2015 2:57:27 PM] James *Reverance*: Please don't throw accusations out if you weren't part of the discussion.
[8/31/2015 2:57:34 PM] Vendral Rae: guys
[8/31/2015 2:57:43 PM] Vendral Rae: let's let the past be the past
[8/31/2015 2:57:53 PM] Vendral Rae: that's the whole point of this soon to come Cold War yes?
[8/31/2015 2:58:05 PM] Vendral Rae: I can agree to fleeting and PvP
[8/31/2015 2:58:36 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: okay, but I want to make a point here
[8/31/2015 2:59:05 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: if we have a total of 200, 100 is GR and 100 is OS
[8/31/2015 2:59:13 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: and 180 of those want pvp
[8/31/2015 2:59:19 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: and 15 want fleeting
[8/31/2015 2:59:23 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: we have a problem
[8/31/2015 2:59:27 PM] Vendral Rae: i wont cut out those 15
[8/31/2015 2:59:30 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: we're equating
[8/31/2015 2:59:33 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: no, I'm not finished
[8/31/2015 2:59:58 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: we're equating two vastly different objectives (in scope)
[8/31/2015 3:00:04 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: despite the participation disparity
[8/31/2015 3:00:07 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: so if you have
[8/31/2015 3:00:12 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: 15 people for 1 win
[8/31/2015 3:00:16 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: and 180 for second win
[8/31/2015 3:00:30 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: then the victory terms are awfully skewed
[8/31/2015 3:00:37 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): that's a really good point
[8/31/2015 3:01:17 PM] Vendral Rae: and those objectives have been equated before
[8/31/2015 3:01:33 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: doesn't mean it was done well
[8/31/2015 3:01:36 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): but it doesn't make sense
[8/31/2015 3:01:43 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): if there are only 2 objectives
[8/31/2015 3:01:49 PM] Vendral Rae: then we need a third then
[8/31/2015 3:01:49 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: we can take this as a chance to improve on past invasions
[8/31/2015 3:01:52 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: why?
[8/31/2015 3:01:59 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: we can make 2 pvp objectives
[8/31/2015 3:02:02 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: and 1 fleeting
[8/31/2015 3:02:14 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: that's a proper balance across the member base
[8/31/2015 3:02:31 PM] Vendral Rae: only if the two PvP objectives are completely different from one another
[8/31/2015 3:02:33 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: that way, the fleeters get to fleet
[8/31/2015 3:02:37 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: and their voices count
[8/31/2015 3:02:44 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: and the majority of the people, who want PvP
[8/31/2015 3:02:46 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: also count.
[8/31/2015 3:02:48 PM] Vendral Rae: they cant both be 1v1 fights determine
[8/31/2015 3:03:00 PM] James *Reverance*: That's fine
[8/31/2015 3:03:08 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: sure, we can shake it up a bit
[8/31/2015 3:03:17 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: for diversity and different interests
[8/31/2015 3:03:32 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: but you can't equate the efforts of 180 people to those of 15
[8/31/2015 3:03:37 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: it just doesn't add up.
[8/31/2015 3:05:06 PM] Svenchilada: Then we will do a starfighter/gunship PVP.
[8/31/2015 3:05:15 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: that's not PvP
[8/31/2015 3:05:22 PM] Svenchilada: It is.
[8/31/2015 3:05:24 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: it's fleeting
[8/31/2015 3:05:27 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: with a different name
[8/31/2015 3:05:29 PM | Edited 3:05:36 PM] Vendral Rae: kashyyyk had it if i remember right
[8/31/2015 3:05:33 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: and still falls under the 15
[8/31/2015 3:06:25 PM] Svenchilada: Can't promote anything if you never do it.
[8/31/2015 3:06:33 PM] Svenchilada: That's why the populations are low.
[8/31/2015 3:06:49 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: that's irrelevant to the discussion at hand
[8/31/2015 3:06:59 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: we're talking about how many interested people there are for that, currently
[8/31/2015 3:07:10 PM | Edited 3:07:20 PM] James *Reverance*: Sorry, not having an invasion with two fleeting objectives.
[8/31/2015 3:07:24 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: especially if one caters to maybe 5 members total
[8/31/2015 3:07:32 PM] Svenchilada: Then a speeder bike PVP.
[8/31/2015 3:07:33 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: we're trying to break up that 180
[8/31/2015 3:07:36 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: not the 15
[8/31/2015 3:07:52 PM] James *Reverance*: Umm
[8/31/2015 3:07:55 PM] Vendral Rae: what if it is an infiltration mission?
[8/31/2015 3:08:07 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: elaborate
[8/31/2015 3:08:25 PM] Vendral Rae: steal top secret droid designs from a facility, both sides send in a team and they fight it out
[8/31/2015 3:08:37 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: so
[8/31/2015 3:08:46 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: pvp?
[8/31/2015 3:09:05 PM] Vendral Rae: yes it would sort of be like that one objective the Mandos had at Wayland
[8/31/2015 3:09:10 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: ohgod.
[8/31/2015 3:09:15 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: if you mean objective C
[8/31/2015 3:09:15 PM] Vendral Rae: i said sorta
[8/31/2015 3:09:17 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: stop right there
[8/31/2015 3:09:19 PM] Transkalpic Elder God:
[8/31/2015 3:09:26 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: that was a "story" objective
[8/31/2015 3:09:31 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: and it is an utterly failed experiment
[8/31/2015 3:09:46 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: we failed to define clear victory terms, and it came back to bite us in the ass
[8/31/2015 3:09:46 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: so
[8/31/2015 3:09:51 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: learning experience says no
[8/31/2015 3:10:21 PM] Vendral Rae: then we define clear victory terms
[8/31/2015 3:10:27 PM] Vendral Rae: if that was the problem
[8/31/2015 3:10:31 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: of course
[8/31/2015 3:10:42 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: in which case it's no longer similar to obj C of wayland
[8/31/2015 3:10:44 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: but, tangent
[8/31/2015 3:10:47 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: currently we have
[8/31/2015 3:10:50 PM] Vendral Rae: hence why i said sorta like it
[8/31/2015 3:11:09 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: 1) fleeting
2) sneaky pvp in a droid facility (or some such)
3) duke it out pvp
[8/31/2015 3:12:46 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: 2) could be tighter and more regulated
3) could be more freeform (along the lines of the pvp terms put forth by the OS)
[8/31/2015 3:13:30 PM] Vendral Rae: i would say 2 could be that the teams fight it out over the designs, sort of like a capture the flag obj, except only one flag
[8/31/2015 3:13:39 PM] Vendral Rae: whoever gets it out and back to their transport wins
[8/31/2015 3:13:44 PM] Svenchilada: "Wins not awarded by matches, but by felled opponents."
Tell me when this ever happens.
[8/31/2015 3:14:04 PM] James *Reverance*: Leaves a lot of room for handwavium
[8/31/2015 3:14:06 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: felled and/or incapacitated
[8/31/2015 3:14:44 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: the person least likely to walk away from that duel, is what that means
[8/31/2015 3:14:58 PM] Svenchilada: That is not in the term.
[8/31/2015 3:15:04 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: because they're not final
[8/31/2015 3:15:09 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: they're terms we're still discussing
[8/31/2015 3:15:14 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: they're open to negotiation
[8/31/2015 3:15:51 PM] James *Reverance*: Part of terms is actually it's presentation on the board, with a pm. I've actually never discussed war terms over Skype.
[8/31/2015 3:16:19 PM] James *Reverance*: It allows a trail so that things can be followed for those currently not signed on.
[8/31/2015 3:16:41 PM] Laura (Sage, Cryax): yah it might be a little bit clearer to do it that way
[8/31/2015 3:16:56 PM] Vendral Rae: unfortunately, we also can only have 5 people in a PM
[8/31/2015 3:17:00 PM] Vendral Rae: we have two teams of three
[8/31/2015 3:17:09 PM] James *Reverance*: Six actually
[8/31/2015 3:17:09 PM] Vendral Rae: someone gets left out
[8/31/2015 3:17:14 PM] James *Reverance*: You and five invites
[8/31/2015 3:18:38 PM] James *Reverance*: It's only a problem when teams have more than the standard three admin
[8/31/2015 3:18:43 PM] Vendral Rae: do we want to move this discussion over then?
[8/31/2015 3:18:53 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: would be prudent
[8/31/2015 3:19:07 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: since we're clearly not gonna use this group chat for cold war discussions at this time
[8/31/2015 3:19:15 PM] Vendral Rae: not yet anyways
[8/31/2015 3:19:20 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: quite
[8/31/2015 4:05:59 PM] Transkalpic Elder God: A skirmish frees us of the map game weight
[8/31/2015 8:52:18 PM] Travot Ravenna: Late night at the school. Just for the record, I was at Objective C at Ord Mirit as Travot, a member of GR's Jedi Order. That's at least two members then between Ali and myself.
[8/31/2015 8:53:17 PM] James *Reverance*: We've moved past that now.
[8/31/2015 9:00:37 PM] Travot Ravenna: Thanks for letting me know James, I just got around to checking my PMs.
[8/31/2015 9:00:55 PM] James *Reverance*: Yep, no problemo

So what this is showing is that the only disagreement was the terms on an invasion as to whether ground & fleeting was allowed or not?

 

[Cecily Demici]

[member="Braith"]
I guess so.

 

[Onrai]

[member="Enigma"]
Unfortunately, from what I am told, the ship has sailed on this issue and I am not willing to pull anymore strings or call out anymore favors to help the cause.

My role in this is over. But perhaps Aurelia would like to work with the OS to come to a solution? I think she would be an excellent candidate to take over my role in the negotiations. Perhaps she could go and see if they would give us some more time to get our ducks in a row before reaming us in another invasion?

Pardon my French, but I assume you actually care about this faction, if only in the slightest. Would you not want to see another pointless defeat for the Republic as a part of the One Sith's carefully orchestrated terms?

Also, nice pessimism combined with a backhand. I know of few people who can pull that off so eloquently. Again, superb orator.

 

[Natasi Fortan]

[member="Enigma"]
Unfortunately, from what I am told, the ship has sailed on this issue and I am not willing to pull anymore strings or call out anymore favors to help the cause.

My role in this is over. But perhaps Aurelia would like to work with the OS to come to a solution? I think she would be an excellent candidate to take over my role in the negotiations. Perhaps she could go and see if they would give us some more time to get our ducks in a row before reaming us in another invasion?

I doubt whether this is a sincere suggestion, but as I've not been asked, and since the OS seem perfectly thrilled not to have a cold war with us, I'm not sure that I could have a positive impact on the outcome. Besides, having read the transcripts I can see that the GR's interests have been represented by [member="Geneviève Lasedri"], [member="Taeli Raaf"] and [member="Gir Quee"], so there is no need to involve myself.

Perhaps now we can clear away the martyr's scaffold and look at what's ahead for the faction?

 

[Ellie Mors]

[member="Braith"]
I guess so.

Why is it that those two terms are what are creating the friction between the two factions?

Is it the way that these two terms are being handled? Is it because of how rules based around these objectives are being written?

If they are unwilling to go with the terms, the terms should be discussed at length to reach a compromise. I don't mean "We want to do fleeting, and you don't, but we're willing to compromise by throwing in this handicap" - that isn't a compromise.

Discuss what the problems are with fleeting and NPC combat. Is it because of the unit numbering (which was horribly done in Ord Mirit and nearly every other invasion to-date)? Is it because we are looking at damage dealt and non-quantantive data, such as "quality" over things such as wins, losses, and draws? Figure out what is wrong with these and fix them so that both sides agree on it - because clearly they are too jaded to just agree outright to two objectives that have been known (and I am not just throwing conjecture out there, I've been in more invasions than I have fingers on my hands) to cause problems in the OOC.

 

[Cecily Demici]

[member="Enigma"]
Thank you for your vote of confidence, but my word was final.

[member="Braith"]
Well that would be ideal, but the Sith have already withdrawn their offer to let us come back to them and announce their invasion. The time for peace has passed and I dont see them reconsidering any time soon.

 

[Persephone Callas]

Can we just stop with the back and forth drama?

And just focus on what we can do in the now, rather than flinging mud at each other? This isn't healthy for the faction nor for our interactions oocly with others. It just makes us look very disjointed. Keep the "GRR they are evil" and the "GRR you have an agenda" and lower the pitchforks.

Doing all of the above never helped anyone and it only frustrates people in the end to the point of paranoia and silliness.

So, what can we do now? How do we do it? Who approaches whom? And then ... do it?

 

[Cora Passek]

I'd just like to note one thing here. With the way the rules are, Balmorra has to be managed first. So while they have taken away their break of twenty-four hours ... they still can't jump instantly to the planet of their choice. It's Balmorra like it or not. Even if that means bringing in RPJs to settle the terms. That invasion was issued first. It has to be managed first. Even if they kick, scream and whine all the way. It has to be dealt with first. Can't ignore or otherwise stall/deny an invasion and yet issue demands for another. Especially considering that invasion was never rescinded or withdrawn, it still stands.

Considering the length of time involved, I highly suggest taking that to the RPJs to help work through the remaining problems to get that invasion on track. They are there to help when resolutions cannot otherwise be reached. And looking at the logs, it's already been spoken about at length and an impasse reached.

 

[Onrai]

Alright, sense and sensibility time.

[member="Persephone Callas"]

It's inevitable. Best to just back away and let the drama destroy itself as it usually does.

[member="Everyone Else"]

Whether the One Sith are stating that an invasion's happening or not means nothing. Until our leadership and theirs come to an agreement, the invasion isn't happening. That's site rules, and I will talk to an admin myself if need be to ensure that this rule is followed to the letter.

 

[Natasi Fortan]

Why is it that those two terms are what are creating the friction between the two factions?

Is it the way that these two terms are being handled? Is it because of how rules based around these objectives are being written?

If they are unwilling to go with the terms, the terms should be discussed at length to reach a compromise. I don't mean "We want to do fleeting, and you don't, but we're willing to compromise by throwing in this handicap" - that isn't a compromise.

Discuss what the problems are with fleeting and NPC combat. Is it because of the unit numbering (which was horribly done in Ord Mirit and nearly every other invasion to-date)? Is it because we are looking at damage dealt and non-quantantive data, such as "quality" over things such as wins, losses, and draws? Figure out what is wrong with these and fix them so that both sides agree on it - because clearly they are too jaded to just agree outright to two objectives that have been known (and I am not just throwing conjecture out there, I've been in more invasions than I have fingers on my hands) to cause problems in the OOC.

This. We need more people/posts like this. We can be reasonable if they can.

 

[Persephone Callas]

I'd just like to note one thing here. With the way the rules are, Balmorra has to be managed first. So while they have taken away their break of twenty-four hours ... they still can't jump instantly to the planet of their choice. It's Balmorra like it or not. Even if that means bringing in RPJs to settle the terms. That invasion was issued first. It has to be managed first. Even if they kick, scream and whine all the way. It has to be dealt with first. Can't ignore or otherwise stall/deny an invasion and yet issue demands for another. Especially considering that invasion was never rescinded or withdrawn, it still stands.

Considering the length of time involved, I highly suggest taking that to the RPJs to help work through the remaining problems to get that invasion on track. They are there to help when resolutions cannot otherwise be reached. And looking at the logs, it's already been spoken about at length and an impasse reached.

Yes Balmorra will be negotiated regardless. The One Sith have never refused an invasion from any faction; they've done three at the same time.

It isn't a question on it happening, what is the question is just what are we as a faction going to do?

Let's knock off whatever has been done / said/ miscommunicated/ polled/ voted on/ talked about the last three weeks.

We can only deal in the now.


So, in the now, what do we do? How do we do it? Who does it? and can we act on it?