When a Weakness Is Not a Weakness

[Ayden Cater]

So I've noticed a trend in the tech forum at late, and while it's not my direct purview, I felt compelled none the less to bring it up. The title should make it painfully obvious just what this is, at least according to me. Namely that people are submitting tech and attempting to cover the power of the sub by applying a weak weakness, or attempting to pass a feature off as a weakness.

I'm gonna pick on the One Sith some here, if only because they're the most recent and visible ones to do this. I certainly applaud the effect to try and balance their subs, but I can't say that they've gone the distance with it and more will follow in their wake.

This is the One Sith's Royal Armor. What bothers me is the listing of things like "Cannot be put on alone" and "It can't be mass produced" are not weaknesses at all, and don't deserve to be treated as such. A number of Factory Judges, Roleplay Judges, and even Admins have commented on character bios where the character has a litany of incredible strengths and then for their weaknesses have things like "Gets mad easily" or "Doesn't play well with others".

Another example, to pick on Tef some, is a 25kg shield saying that it's heavy. While this might be true for others, the first major engagement it was in was with a monstrously large and physically powerful Vong. In this particular case, it's not a problem as the shield has a whole other list of weaknesses that move than cover for its strengths, but that one weakness at the end just got me thinking and I had to point it out.

I just don't think some subs are being given appropriate weaknesses comparative to their strengths. Maybe I'm way off base and no one else thinks this. Maybe I'm not. But I felt it deserving enough to throw a topic up and see what the response was.

 

[J3C0]

First, i'm going to defend my submission for a second.

It is not required to supply weaknesses within a submission. I list downsides, not weaknesses. The one weakness i do list in the submission is the weaker points of the armor in the abdomen where there is no Phrik plating, this is done on purpose to point out a glaring weakpoint. The downsides i list are things that have to be respected in roleplay. It is not up to me to supply my enemy with a way to penetrate or destroy my armor. There are plenty of ways to break this armor, and i have made no attempt to limit or stop those. Off the top of my head i can list 4 major ways to kill the person inside the armor that most people on this board can easily take advantage of.

It is up to you, the person that is facing me to come up with a way to kill/disable me.

Most Mandalorian armor on the board is arguably supposed to be indestructible according to canon, yet many members have come up with creative and fun ways to penetrate and destroy it. They will do the same for anything we players create.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

Whilst I agree with what [member="Ayden Cater"] says, I also agree with [member="Darth Mierin"] that we don't explicitly ask for weaknesses. I tend to put in clear weaknesses or downsides for things I make, but that's not required by the template we have now.

Adding a Strengths/Weaknesses area to the template would make sense though, just like with characters.

 

[Popo]

I'm on both sides of the fence here. We're not required to list weaknesses for submissions. That said, listing weaknesses is great for flavor. I list weaknesses for my submissions whenever possible, even if they're only the ones natural to a submission of its kind. I'll use a quick example, here with my own submissions.

Popo's armor is Class 10 beskar plate. It's festooned with weapons and, canonicaly, beskar is ultra hard to do much to. That said, he's a hutt and a Shell Hutt at that. Someone fries the micro-repulsors keeping the armor mobile? Popo's not going anywhere without a crane or Yoda.

My Azalus Flak Frigate is a support frigate with only AA guns. It's actually over the limit by about 10 batteries, though it's from the 1.0 guide. The trade off? It's small, fragile, and is designed to break so that you have to order more parts from Tenloss (Allowing Tenloss to rake in profits from spare parts. Yay, Capitalism!).

We don't require weaknesses listed in the initial submission, but we should, and can, encourage them. Also, in my opinion, a submission with clearly defined weaknesses and faults is less likely to have drama when someone uses it on someone else. Why? Because despite something being OPed in a lot of ways, that person can see on the submission that the thing they're facing is weak at X, Y, and Z. Will there be metagaming? Possibly, but most writers have enough common sense to figure it out IC'ly over a post or two instead of just insta-TROLLOLOL metagaming around it. And, if they do anyways, we have methods to deal with that. Namely: talking to them and, failing that, RPJs.

 

[Tefka]

Another example, to pick on Tef some, is a 25kg shield saying that it's heavy. While this might be true for others, the first major engagement it was in was with a monstrously large and physically powerful Vong. In this particular case, it's not a problem as the shield has a whole other list of weaknesses that move than cover for its strengths, but that one weakness at the end just got me thinking and I had to point it out.

When is a weakness not a weakness?

A: When powerful dev threads convince the Factory Judge to let it slide. That shield had a dev thread that ended at like 72 posts. That's almost enough to gain a planet.

A: When the writer is known and trusted to be able to use that item. The shield lasted for like 2 posts before being shattered to bits by a role-player who wanted to kill his character.

A: When it's a situational weakness. You pointed out only one of six. Should I not have listed the the weight? I agree it doesn't really apply to my character, or larger characters, but I wish to gift this shield out to others. I think it should be incorporated into the use of this item. So it's not always a weakness. But sometimes it is. And I think those sorts of weaknesses should be listed.

 

[Sirella Valkner]

[member="Tefka"]

That actually brings up something Tef.I donno its a thought, but one that really isn't fully formed. If you have to do a 20 post dev thread and get 15 people to do it... does it really count at that point? When judges rule they should rule like every additional person added makes it +5 posts to the dev thread or some crap to stop faction spamming. Or not. as I said half formed thought I figured I'd mention.

 

[Tefka]

If you have to do a 20 post dev thread and get 15 people to do it... does it really count at that point

Someone called me out on doing this very thing.

I asked them why nobody's done it before. (though I'm sure others have)

Why stop people from role-playing together? Do you want people to role-play these dev threads alone? That's absurd. People have been working together to overcome obstacles since the dawn of time (Pyramids). It's our advantage. It's our way of combatting a Factory Judge who thinks you need a 50 post dev thread to be able to shoot fire out of your frackin' shield.

I wish more people did it, tbh. It certainly would make things more interesting. That dev thread was fun for me, and I hope it was fun for others.

 

[Sirella Valkner]

[member="Tefka"]

I have fun with Dev threads too Tef. I invite one or two other people and go at it and have an adventure related to the development of a tech. The problem I see with it is popular versus unpopular. Nothing we can do about it but if you're unpopular you need to suddenly work harder for your toys. I donno I can see both arguements.

 

[Tefka]

[member="Sirella Valkner"]

And to put it in perspective, this shield with two short range amphistaffs that can shoot flame three times per thread has a dev thread about 20 posts longer than all the posts combined of the threads made to create the Republic's Stealth X fighter.

 

[Tefka]

The problem I see with it is popular versus unpopular.

That's not something that can or should be regulated.

 

[The End Narrator]

[member="Sirella Valkner"]

And to put it in perspective, this shield with two short range amphistaffs that can shoot flame three times per thread has a dev thread about 20 posts longer than all the posts combined of the threads made to create the Republic's Stealth X fighter.

I'd appreciate being called out directly on this.

If you'd like we can sideline it and I'll get you more substantial threads?


I judged it, worked with [member="Darth Mierin"], fixed problems and moved on. If I felt there were issues, I'd deny it. I think I've done a fair enough job putting people into weaknesses regardless of how they perceive their own technology and what they want and how to keep it balanced and fair.

Please know, I don't have a fear to deny a submission. I don't care who you are. At the end of the day, I'll follow the rules. If someone abuses the rules to get what they want or creates a ruckus in the backfield, well then you're obviously a crappy writer and have to have such an advantage to do such a thing.

That isn't something though I have ever experienced or maybe I'm just ignorant, stupid and blind?

My Stealth-X probably could have been fleshed out more, but somewhere in that time right into this very moment, there have been issues that have killed my muse. So I'd like to say I have a fair enough excuse. Probably not, as I don't fall in that specific category for excuses.

But maybe this is just me, seeing it as I see it.

 

[Tefka]

[member="Aaralyn Rekali"]

My post wasn't meant as a slight towards the Stealth X, sorry if you misunderstood, I think the posts involved towards it's creation is fine/substantial. I only wished to provide perspective.

I just think we ask too much for imaginary stuff sometimes.

 

[The End Narrator]

[member="Aaralyn Rekali"]

My post wasn't meant as a slight towards the Stealth X, sorry if you misunderstood, I think the posts involved towards it's creation is fine/substantial. I only wished to provide perspective.

I just think we ask too much for imaginary stuff sometimes.

I believe I did and I owe you an apology. I'm sorry.

That being said, I guess it depends on scale? No, really I just follow rules. If the development thread is 10 posts or 15 posts or even 20 posts of substantial note, I'll take it.

If it's a bunch of one or two liners talking about nonsense, I'm going to ask for a re-write of something. I don't even care if it's a journal entry in a diary of 1500 words or whatever. Just an example.

Something to show effort, is all I have ever asked people. I always got told effort is part of the keys to success and getting the things you desire, nothing is ever free or handed to you.

Everything comes with a price.

 

[Tefka]

gettin a bit dramatic up in hurr

 

[Raziel]

Someone called me out on doing this very thing.

I asked them why nobody's done it before. (though I'm sure others have)

Why stop people from role-playing together? Do you want people to role-play these dev threads alone? That's absurd. People have been working together to overcome obstacles since the dawn of time (Pyramids). It's our advantage. It's our way of combatting a Factory Judge who thinks you need a 50 post dev thread to be able to shoot fire out of your frackin' shield.

I wish more people did it, tbh. It certainly would make things more interesting. That dev thread was fun for me, and I hope it was fun for others.

This is a key point for me. I wouldn't want to be in a place where FJs are ever actively encouraging people to do things that are not fun. Personally I wouldn't want to see a place where people are trying to outdo each other in: "speed writing incredibly dull posts to get better tech than Bob, because Bob bashed out 100 posts last night and now has a bigger gun than me".

 

[Valiens Nantaris]