Star Wars Roleplay: Chaos
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Fanning The Flame - Dogpilie Invasions
- Thread starter Kahlil Noble
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But I Am Free
[member="Jay Scott Clark"]
Oh I see what you mean.
Oh I see what you mean.
Writer Account
I made the choice to keep writing because I wanted to play for the story, I didn't want to have the time wasted of those who had been setting up their own little scene within the thread. At the time of playing I thought that maybe the leadership would come back to the thread and post alongside me (I was wrong) so that the players within the thread could continue RPing as that is the entire purpose of a roleplay site. We all assumed we'd losed the invasion. There was nothing that told us otherwise. Additionally I wasn't personally stressed with keeping up my posts. Although the rest of the faction was. I like writing posts, I like making stories. But not everyone has the free time of a freshly graduated and unemployed college student.Auberon said:
He made statements that'd he'd attack people, sure, that's what factions do in the map game. They gain hexes and they fight invasions. That's what keeps the cogs turning in the rp machine. You do not attack people for OOC threats. You attack them for IC threats. The saber rattling of a miniature, and much angrier, Carnifex should not give the green light to people to trample on other writers.
There was no ill intent towards me personally, no, but there was clearly ill intent towards Vyrassu. And those of us not versed in the site's drama around him got a hard lesson in getting involved in OOC beef.
Eternal Father
TJE would've been attacked by TSE regardless because it was a heretical sect in opposition to the reigning Dark Lord of the Sith.
Beyond that, Vyrassu was given multiple opportunities to combat us in non-invasion settings; one of which he demanded to be archived because he didn't control the entire narrative.
The existence and location of the faction was also given ICly, so all the justification was there ICly.
[member="Cay-Yo"]
Beyond that, Vyrassu was given multiple opportunities to combat us in non-invasion settings; one of which he demanded to be archived because he didn't control the entire narrative.
The existence and location of the faction was also given ICly, so all the justification was there ICly.
[member="Cay-Yo"]
Writer Account
You're absolutely right, and I have no problem with the TSE invading the TJE. The problem I had was that it happened side-by-side and killed the fun for the faction. I go back to what I said previously.Darth Carnifex said:
Real time does not have a one second to one second parallel to In Character time. Therefore if the story is truly what matters there would be no issue in delaying a second invasion until a previous invasion is completed, and use the very fluid In Character time to establish the narrative that the events of the 2nd thread happened immediately following the 1st.
Valdus Bral
️ Clan Bral Alor ️| Warlord of Nellogant
[member="Adron Malvern"]
The only major faction the UCM could invade that isn't in the CIS/SJO/Etc. alliance is the TSE which have been the UCM's only long term ally. That's the reality right now, it's either invade your alliance, betray your only ally and still get invaded by the alliance anyway, or do nothing and get invaded because the UCM is the only bit of opposition conflict in the eyes of the CIS as was revealed when apparently this invasion has been planned long in advance. This isn't to blame the CIS for invading, it happens, but to insinuate as if we had any other alternative or that it would've changed anything if we did isn't true.
The only major faction the UCM could invade that isn't in the CIS/SJO/Etc. alliance is the TSE which have been the UCM's only long term ally. That's the reality right now, it's either invade your alliance, betray your only ally and still get invaded by the alliance anyway, or do nothing and get invaded because the UCM is the only bit of opposition conflict in the eyes of the CIS as was revealed when apparently this invasion has been planned long in advance. This isn't to blame the CIS for invading, it happens, but to insinuate as if we had any other alternative or that it would've changed anything if we did isn't true.
B E A C O N
[member="Cay-Yo"]
The problem at hand was that your faction's face (that's what faction staff/leadership is) was going around ICly harassing other factions and provoking them into invading them. The TJE then got invaded and history can tell us the rest, but it wasn't out of some personal vendetta. Every thread started with TJE was ignored by the faction at large (and I do have vysrassu's words about requiring members not post to them), which led to the only thread that a faction cannot simply say "this is not real, this does not exist, we do not acknowledge this as a real thread" - and that is an invasion.
Nobody jumped TJE with invasions until every other avenue for attempting to RP was exhausted, and the faction owner made it clear that the faction wouldn't partake in any thread that didn't go exactly as he wanted. The invasions came as a last resort - that's it. At the end of the day people wanted to RP, and frustration with threads being closed, being ignored, etc, were compounded until someone (me) brought up the notion that a faction can't ignore an invasion.
That is all beside the point, and rather off-topic. I believe the OP of this thread is referring to literal dogpiling, which is considerably different from a faction provoking a series of invasions from people that have been denied all other avenues of RP.
The problem at hand was that your faction's face (that's what faction staff/leadership is) was going around ICly harassing other factions and provoking them into invading them. The TJE then got invaded and history can tell us the rest, but it wasn't out of some personal vendetta. Every thread started with TJE was ignored by the faction at large (and I do have vysrassu's words about requiring members not post to them), which led to the only thread that a faction cannot simply say "this is not real, this does not exist, we do not acknowledge this as a real thread" - and that is an invasion.
Nobody jumped TJE with invasions until every other avenue for attempting to RP was exhausted, and the faction owner made it clear that the faction wouldn't partake in any thread that didn't go exactly as he wanted. The invasions came as a last resort - that's it. At the end of the day people wanted to RP, and frustration with threads being closed, being ignored, etc, were compounded until someone (me) brought up the notion that a faction can't ignore an invasion.
That is all beside the point, and rather off-topic. I believe the OP of this thread is referring to literal dogpiling, which is considerably different from a faction provoking a series of invasions from people that have been denied all other avenues of RP.
K i n g
I see your point. But if a man is arrested for robbing a store then he gets a punishment. Just because he was hungry doesn't mean the punishment is lifted. Like I said, a bad hand. Regardless of if invasions are pre-planned or not, when you attack a factions allies they will attack you.
The CIS was in the same boat for a while. After the GE fell off the map there wasn't much in terms of enemies, until the TJE Invasion.
I get where you're coming from I just don't see a way to fix it that doesn't neuter the map game.
[member="Valdus Bral"]
The CIS was in the same boat for a while. After the GE fell off the map there wasn't much in terms of enemies, until the TJE Invasion.
I get where you're coming from I just don't see a way to fix it that doesn't neuter the map game.
[member="Valdus Bral"]
But I Am Free
[member="Braith Achlys"]
Actually, my own belief is similar to [member="Cay-Yo"] , in that if the story actually mattered, delaying an invasion to take place OOC after another does a: nothing to the IC and b: 4gives the writers of the faction now forced to write multiple invasions a chance to breath and have fun with it.
Whether or not dogpiling is bullying is also a discussion for the thread. But both are important.
Actually, my own belief is similar to [member="Cay-Yo"] , in that if the story actually mattered, delaying an invasion to take place OOC after another does a: nothing to the IC and b: 4gives the writers of the faction now forced to write multiple invasions a chance to breath and have fun with it.
Whether or not dogpiling is bullying is also a discussion for the thread. But both are important.
M E A T B A G
After reading through the multitude of posts that populate this thread, I’ve come across a few that caught my eye - and not in a good way. It’s rumoured that Chaos is dying. Having come from a Star Wars RP site that has died, and carried on like several limping major factions, I firmly believe that the opposite is true. This community isn’t thriving as it used too, sure, but it's far from dead. We’re staying the course, and growing incrementally on a daily basis. If you don’t see that, I’m not going to sit here and patronize you or tell you why you’re wrong. Ultimately it comes down to one’s perception.
You see a Six, while I see a Nine.
The map game is unsustainable is another detail I’ve seen brought up, and much like the aforementioned point about the site dying - I don’t see it. The map game is fine for what it is, and what it offers. Do I think it’s perfect? No. Nothing ever is. However, I don’t see it as a broken aspect of the site that needs to be fixed. If anything? It needs to be treated like an MMOG and get updates - minor tweaks to enhance its potential. What those updates are, or could be? I couldn’t tell you - as this isn’t the thread to be dropping them in.
We’ll eventually see new updates rolled around to the mandates system when the Admin team have finished doing their work. I realize they got a lot of things going on, and I’m a patient person. Others aren’t, I get that, but I have no control over anyone but myself.
Chaos is a play-by-post Star Wars RolePlaying Game, no matter what way you spin it. The site self-regulates itself and does its best to cater to everyone; despite the fact that it's impossible to do so. In addition to this - Chaos is a place of infinite possibilities, where each and every one of us is free to write whatever our heart desires. Be it a Queen governing a planet, or a Scoundrel trying to make his way in the Galaxy. I think it’s fair to say that we don’t care what you decide to write - so long as you write and have fun doing so. However, there is something else that comes with those infinite possibilities and the choices we make.
Much like in real life, every action we take has consequences.
This beloved website of ours does a pretty good job of listing out the consequences and responsibilities that should be expected - especially by those groups of players wishing to proclaim themselves as a Major faction. While I understand and know this upcoming conversational horse has been smashed into oblivion, but it goes without saying - read the terms and conditions before hitting accept.
Hell, in my mind, it’s like people walking down a freshly mopped hallway with shoes that don’t have grip. The sign’s there, warning you of what could happen - yet you elected to walk down that path anyway. Its no-one’s fault but your own if you slip and fall. In the end, the only thing you’ll have truly wounded is your pride. There’s little point in making the situation worse by being petulant, or blaming someone else for your decision. Own it. Accept whatever consequences come your way, and try to do better next time.
You see a Six, while I see a Nine.
The map game is unsustainable is another detail I’ve seen brought up, and much like the aforementioned point about the site dying - I don’t see it. The map game is fine for what it is, and what it offers. Do I think it’s perfect? No. Nothing ever is. However, I don’t see it as a broken aspect of the site that needs to be fixed. If anything? It needs to be treated like an MMOG and get updates - minor tweaks to enhance its potential. What those updates are, or could be? I couldn’t tell you - as this isn’t the thread to be dropping them in.
We’ll eventually see new updates rolled around to the mandates system when the Admin team have finished doing their work. I realize they got a lot of things going on, and I’m a patient person. Others aren’t, I get that, but I have no control over anyone but myself.
Chaos is a play-by-post Star Wars RolePlaying Game, no matter what way you spin it. The site self-regulates itself and does its best to cater to everyone; despite the fact that it's impossible to do so. In addition to this - Chaos is a place of infinite possibilities, where each and every one of us is free to write whatever our heart desires. Be it a Queen governing a planet, or a Scoundrel trying to make his way in the Galaxy. I think it’s fair to say that we don’t care what you decide to write - so long as you write and have fun doing so. However, there is something else that comes with those infinite possibilities and the choices we make.
Much like in real life, every action we take has consequences.
This beloved website of ours does a pretty good job of listing out the consequences and responsibilities that should be expected - especially by those groups of players wishing to proclaim themselves as a Major faction. While I understand and know this upcoming conversational horse has been smashed into oblivion, but it goes without saying - read the terms and conditions before hitting accept.
Hell, in my mind, it’s like people walking down a freshly mopped hallway with shoes that don’t have grip. The sign’s there, warning you of what could happen - yet you elected to walk down that path anyway. Its no-one’s fault but your own if you slip and fall. In the end, the only thing you’ll have truly wounded is your pride. There’s little point in making the situation worse by being petulant, or blaming someone else for your decision. Own it. Accept whatever consequences come your way, and try to do better next time.
Valdus Bral
️ Clan Bral Alor ️| Warlord of Nellogant
[member="Adron Malvern"]
Invade away, no one is saying that you shouldn't. It's about the timing and the proximity of start dates making the invasion be simultaneous is the issue. The desire that I have personally, and the one that some here also have, is some way to restrict how many invasions go on at once in order for factions to not have to juggle multiple invasion threads which, as you know, are much higher stress than normal threads and thus lead to burnout much more quickly. I don't have the solution to this issue, but it is an issue none the less in my eyes.
Invade away, no one is saying that you shouldn't. It's about the timing and the proximity of start dates making the invasion be simultaneous is the issue. The desire that I have personally, and the one that some here also have, is some way to restrict how many invasions go on at once in order for factions to not have to juggle multiple invasion threads which, as you know, are much higher stress than normal threads and thus lead to burnout much more quickly. I don't have the solution to this issue, but it is an issue none the less in my eyes.
K i n g
[member="Khonsu Amon"]
Wonderfully said.
Wonderfully said.
Writer Account
[member="Braith Achlys"]
A series of invasions is not the issue. A series of invasions taking place in real time simultaneously is dogpiling, and it is the topic of the thread. I'm not attempting to defend Vryassu, I'm trying to use that very recent example as evidence that the current system does not promote good story telling. It promotes stress on the players. If Vryassu was acting in a way that was not indicitative of fair play it should have been brought to the admins to be sorted out. The TJE wanted to RP, even if Vryassu did not. We just didn't want to feel as if the entire board's only goal was to drive us from the map.
A series of invasions is not the issue. A series of invasions taking place in real time simultaneously is dogpiling, and it is the topic of the thread. I'm not attempting to defend Vryassu, I'm trying to use that very recent example as evidence that the current system does not promote good story telling. It promotes stress on the players. If Vryassu was acting in a way that was not indicitative of fair play it should have been brought to the admins to be sorted out. The TJE wanted to RP, even if Vryassu did not. We just didn't want to feel as if the entire board's only goal was to drive us from the map.
B E A C O N
I think all of this boils down to "will everyone please try to be considerate of factions who have members that are not as enthusiastic with invasions, and maybe space out invasions a little".
Two invasions at one time is not dogpiling, no matter how you spin it. It's two invasions. Get invaded by three, four, five, or six factions at the same time? Sure, maybe then.
Getting invaded back by two factions while invading the first, or literally starting a thread declaring the intent to invade and conquer the galaxy and thus getting invaded by two factions at the same time? Not the same thing.
All of this talk of multiple invasions is missing the point, and the point is nuance. You can't label all of these circumstances the same thing because they have completely unrelated contexts to them, and they aren't dogpiling because dogpiling doesn't just meaning being invaded by more than one faction at the same time.
Two invasions at one time is not dogpiling, no matter how you spin it. It's two invasions. Get invaded by three, four, five, or six factions at the same time? Sure, maybe then.
Getting invaded back by two factions while invading the first, or literally starting a thread declaring the intent to invade and conquer the galaxy and thus getting invaded by two factions at the same time? Not the same thing.
All of this talk of multiple invasions is missing the point, and the point is nuance. You can't label all of these circumstances the same thing because they have completely unrelated contexts to them, and they aren't dogpiling because dogpiling doesn't just meaning being invaded by more than one faction at the same time.
WelshPsych
Rawr!!!
I'm sorry but I have brought up this discussion on multiple occasions and on each occasion, most of the site prefers to stick to the original rules of an invasion.
If the UCM don't want to be dogpiled they can surrender one or more hexes. Coordinating attacks and stuff that is happening here is no different to what has happened to over factions in the past. Look at SJO, when based on Voss, they were dogpiled by three factions with invasions yet no one outside of the faction cared like they are here.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
If the UCM don't want to be dogpiled they can surrender one or more hexes. Coordinating attacks and stuff that is happening here is no different to what has happened to over factions in the past. Look at SJO, when based on Voss, they were dogpiled by three factions with invasions yet no one outside of the faction cared like they are here.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
But I Am Free
[member="Yuroic Xeraic"]
I made this thread not because I care what happens to the UCM, but because it was brought up again and things like this have happened in the past.
Nothing that happens here will change the current invasions. That much has already been made clear.
Just looking to get open dialogue going, and so far that's what's been happening. The past cant be changed, so if there's anything you want to voice and see changed, now is the time to do it.
I made this thread not because I care what happens to the UCM, but because it was brought up again and things like this have happened in the past.
Nothing that happens here will change the current invasions. That much has already been made clear.
Just looking to get open dialogue going, and so far that's what's been happening. The past cant be changed, so if there's anything you want to voice and see changed, now is the time to do it.
WelshPsych
Rawr!!!
[member="Kahlil Zambrano"]
I never said you did care. What I was pointing out is this is more a problem amongst some because they like the UCM, which is fine. But where was this when TJE was being attack multiple times by factions, or the SJO when they were based in Voss.
There are ways to get out of being overwhelmed, they can surrender hexes, go minor or they can fight the invasions if they want. While I agree this should be discussed, there is a lot of salt being thrown around at the moment, so it might be best to discuss this at a later point when things have calmed down.
I never said you did care. What I was pointing out is this is more a problem amongst some because they like the UCM, which is fine. But where was this when TJE was being attack multiple times by factions, or the SJO when they were based in Voss.
There are ways to get out of being overwhelmed, they can surrender hexes, go minor or they can fight the invasions if they want. While I agree this should be discussed, there is a lot of salt being thrown around at the moment, so it might be best to discuss this at a later point when things have calmed down.
THE UNDEFEATED
I think the idea is that, seeing as we can't or won't fight our friends or be friendly OOCly using the current invasion system. Perhaps some rules or mandates need to be updated to reflect how people wish to play.Adron Malvern said:
Also, nobody is saying faction conflict should only ever be 1v1. But that doesn't mean that they have to happen in the same OOC timeframe. And yes, a lot of the people here expressing themselves for this aren't within those alliances, safe to say they aren't for everyone. The only people I really see in support of this are friends of the largest Factions. Ultimately there's nothing that will negatively impact the Map Game. Not really.
People trying to say that the Map Game is genuinely competitive are fooling themselves. But that also depends on what you consider competitive, if they intended to be competitive it would be more restricted. The Map Game isn't competitive, its never been a fair fight and whilst it shouldn't be without consequence, alliances shouldn't negatively impact other groups OOCly.
This isn't a game where, you have a ranking or can not play ranked mode when you want to. It's a live competition, that you can't quit from without leaving behind your hard work. As it stands, the Map Game serves the interest of those with OOC popularity and a larger member base. You can say its about writing better, but ultimately the Invasion judging process involves more than just the writing. And writing is also a subjective matter, how on earth can we actually pretend its a genuinely competitive experience?
Not to mention, there's no benefit for the game for invasions to take place at the same OOC time unless the benefit is burning out the opposition. If a group acts poorly in response to the IC narrative its gotten itself into, that should be reflected in if they win their invasion. But, that has nothing to do with when the Invasions take place. You can still be an alliance narratively attacking at the same time, and the enemy has to respond as such.
That has no bearing on the OOC side of things.
defy the tyrannous stars
I'm so tempted to just keep watching things burn, but I'll be a productive community member I guess.
These points have been gone over nearly to death but I don't think its been argued as well as it could have been cause I have a huge ego so here we go.
The current invasions are purely the result of OOC animosity/the current invasions constitute bullying.
I don't believe the writers in support of this perspective have proved their case here, which is not the same as saying that the OOC animosity doesn't exist. The people in this thread suggesting there is no bad blood are foolish. IMO some of it is very justified, but just because it is there does not mean it is dictating people's actions. Read the threads of the factions involved before you claim zero IC justification.
I would be very careful about throwing around words like 'harassment', because from my point of view starting a status update war followed by a six page suggestion thread because your friends are having a bad week sounds a little like bully behavior to me. Declaring 'bullies' does not make it so, and doing it because you're upset with how a situation has played out could be seen as a form of harassment to get your own way.
There is no reason for simultaneous OOC invasions other than to burn writers out/frustate them.
There may be some truth to this, but if so the threshold should be much higher than two or three invasions. Like it or not, cloud breaks are a thing, strategic assaults are a thing. So it should only be IC, sure, then maybe we should reevaluate the rules about launching consecutive invasions between judgments, or the amount of territory conquerable per month, or re-dominioning lost hexes. As it stands right now most factions are unkillable, multiple invasions are the only way to raise the stakes. Is it poodooty? Maybe, but this is what the community asked for. People don't want to lose their sand castles, so now the only way to defeat your opponent is if you break their morale. Democracy in action.
It is true that some factions are less predisposed towards pvp than other factions. Should they be rewarded for this? If they are on the map, no. The map is for pvp. There is no mechanic on Chaos that allows a group of writers to squat on territory with no risk to themselves. Good. This is working as intended.
Simultaneous IC invasions should take place at different times OOC.
In a perfect world this might be a perfect solution, but as it stands coordinating schedules are so complex that the site only gets a few months of viable invasion season per year. If a single faction pisses off half the site IC, we are not going to take turns socking them in the face like olde timey boxers. That is an unfair expectation to place on other factions to pay the price for that single faction's leadership/activity problems.
The rules shouldn't change simply because two factions who are not even adjacent to the hexes they are attacking declared at a bad time. People are asking for an overhaul of the entire invasion system because of a potential month's lost work.
Since it's easy to snipe at people from the back of the class but much more difficult to come up with productive suggestions or contributions, here is my take on a fix through mandate:
Defendable Space
Strength: The Major Faction cannot be invaded by multiple factions simultaneously.
Weakness: The Major Faction cannot invade a faction at the same time as another Major Faction or sign up as allies.
If you don't like the ally game, you don't like the ally game. Fine. But you shouldn't get to profit off it.
These points have been gone over nearly to death but I don't think its been argued as well as it could have been cause I have a huge ego so here we go.
The current invasions are purely the result of OOC animosity/the current invasions constitute bullying.
I don't believe the writers in support of this perspective have proved their case here, which is not the same as saying that the OOC animosity doesn't exist. The people in this thread suggesting there is no bad blood are foolish. IMO some of it is very justified, but just because it is there does not mean it is dictating people's actions. Read the threads of the factions involved before you claim zero IC justification.
I would be very careful about throwing around words like 'harassment', because from my point of view starting a status update war followed by a six page suggestion thread because your friends are having a bad week sounds a little like bully behavior to me. Declaring 'bullies' does not make it so, and doing it because you're upset with how a situation has played out could be seen as a form of harassment to get your own way.
There is no reason for simultaneous OOC invasions other than to burn writers out/frustate them.
There may be some truth to this, but if so the threshold should be much higher than two or three invasions. Like it or not, cloud breaks are a thing, strategic assaults are a thing. So it should only be IC, sure, then maybe we should reevaluate the rules about launching consecutive invasions between judgments, or the amount of territory conquerable per month, or re-dominioning lost hexes. As it stands right now most factions are unkillable, multiple invasions are the only way to raise the stakes. Is it poodooty? Maybe, but this is what the community asked for. People don't want to lose their sand castles, so now the only way to defeat your opponent is if you break their morale. Democracy in action.
It is true that some factions are less predisposed towards pvp than other factions. Should they be rewarded for this? If they are on the map, no. The map is for pvp. There is no mechanic on Chaos that allows a group of writers to squat on territory with no risk to themselves. Good. This is working as intended.
Simultaneous IC invasions should take place at different times OOC.
In a perfect world this might be a perfect solution, but as it stands coordinating schedules are so complex that the site only gets a few months of viable invasion season per year. If a single faction pisses off half the site IC, we are not going to take turns socking them in the face like olde timey boxers. That is an unfair expectation to place on other factions to pay the price for that single faction's leadership/activity problems.
The rules shouldn't change simply because two factions who are not even adjacent to the hexes they are attacking declared at a bad time. People are asking for an overhaul of the entire invasion system because of a potential month's lost work.
Since it's easy to snipe at people from the back of the class but much more difficult to come up with productive suggestions or contributions, here is my take on a fix through mandate:
Defendable Space
Strength: The Major Faction cannot be invaded by multiple factions simultaneously.
Weakness: The Major Faction cannot invade a faction at the same time as another Major Faction or sign up as allies.
If you don't like the ally game, you don't like the ally game. Fine. But you shouldn't get to profit off it.
Sic transit gloria mundi
This is quite pertinent. Presently, Dominions are very cheap, as 50 posts suffice to get a hex. You can dom a lot faster than you can invade.Zark said:
So, to put it plainly, you need simultaneous invasions to actually put a dent in someone's sphere, unless they throw the towel and commit state suicide for other reasons or their activity is real low, in which case they'll probably not come far on the map anyway.