Fanning The Flame - Dogpilie Invasions

[Kahlil Noble]

[member="Alkor Centaris"]

A counter point.

It's just a game. Why do we have to dogpile? Why does it have to be unfair? Why can't the rules change to include more people if, as you said, it's just a game?

 

[Tathra Khaeus]

[member="Alkor Centaris"]

It's just a game, but its not like a FPS where if you don't like one you can go onto the next. And most games don't require this level of creativity and investment.

Except for I guess, Minecraft? And I'm telling you now - I got real mad when they blew up my majestic dirt house.

Point is, Chaos is special. Chaos is unique. Its special to a lot of us. And whether its a game or not, it shouldn't cater to one side or the other.

 

[Alkor Centaris]

Okay, so, how far from realism do we want to take it?

The more rules we impose, the more of a game it becomes. Are we gonna make it turn based? Limit team sizes? Right now, IC actions dictate how factions respond. CIC notwithstanding, CIS made an IC promise to counterattack if anyone messed with SJO. That's happening now.

 

[Kahlil Noble]

[member="Alkor Centaris"]

Sure. It can be represented in an IC thread that takes place after the current invasion. Nothing changes IC, save the Mandos have more breathing room to think and write a good story.

What's wrong with that?

 

[Alkor Centaris]

What's wrong with it- nothing

Is it my problem? No.

 

[Kahlil Noble]

So because it's not your problem the rules shouldn't change. [member="Alkor Centaris"] ? Or am I misreading that?

 

[Vora Kaar]

[member="Tathra Khaeus"], [member="Kahlil Zambrano"],

We are of different minds, different backgrounds. So I honestly don't expect you, or anyone to get or agree with me 100% of the time. That is fine. However, my opinion, is that the game state is fine. Invasions are not the problem. They were never the problem. Its the people playing the game.

The CIS was planning on attacking this month. the SJO in honest, was making invasion plans for next month. For the purpose to not overload the writers. However, the UMC attacked the SJO of their own right. They opened for attack. The CIS only stayed true to their word. The CIC then hopped in because they smelled blood in the water.

There SHOULD have only been one invasion this month. CIS vs UMC. However, UMC made it their priorty with the wrong faction. That is what caused them to get into the situation in what they are in. Yes, its unfortunate. Yes, its not fair. However, the SJO are the ones being attacked, when the CIS planned forever ago to start it now.

Yes, it should be fun for other writers. But it is of no fault to the CIS, or the SJO for the situation the Mandalorians are in between a hard place and a rock. THAT Is the name of the game. They made a choice to attack. They chose, wrong, and are paying for it as a natural consequence of the game. Changing the game so there are little to no consequences. Otherwise, the PvP of this game would mean nothing.

You are arguing that Invasions shouldn't happen between more than two factions within a given month. When that is not the purpose of the game. Alliances are formed for the pure purpose of smashing as much as they can against the other team. Be it Pure PvP, or story based objectives played better. Either way, the Better writers will win. The only difference is the type of writer.

Yes, rules can be looked into. Yes, rules can be changed. However these rules that are current set are very loose to allow other factions to do as they please. If it means being part of the dog pile, or happen to be on the bottom of said pile. The ME could have chosen to go "Wait a second. How about we talk this out." instead of attacking people. Their consequence for attacking multiple factions, is those multiple factions will attack all at the same time to not just win the fight, but win a war.

My thoughts on this? Its fair play. We limited how much the Factory/weapons/ships/fleet sizes could turn the tide of battle. Its all about how well you can write. Then why are you trying to change the rules when the UMC did an arguably poor job of writing?

 

[WolfMortum]

[member="Veiere Arenais"]

I gotta disagree there bud. The Chiss Ascendancy or any small niche by no stretch of the imagination started with the same chances as the Confed of Independent Systems. Niches die because only large open and easy platforms thrive. That's not something I condone.

Chaos is not at fault for the choices and preferences that writers make. A factions popularity isn't a fault of the rules but the decision of the Faction Owner and Administrators making the choice to run with a given theme that others may or may not find preferable. Site Staff aren't here to help anyone win a popularity contest, and faction success comes down to a variety of aspects alongside the same set of rules laid out for everyone to follow. Visual Appeal, Activity, Member-Count, Theme. These are all things that fall to the members of said faction.

By the same argument, Commenor wasn't a popular faction when it first started off. Kay and I put over seven months into it as a Minor Faction before making the decision to go Major. By the end of the three years of our leading that faction, we had put in the work to get it where it was. We didn't invade a single faction, and none of our dominions were won by war-type scenarios which made us far less appealing than some of the other factions on the board. The persistence of the faction admin team and our consistent and active members made it the success that it was. All following the same rules that apply for everyone else on the board.

 

[Kay-Larr]

No. This limits how many allies can be added to whichever invasion takes place. Most mandates have 5 allies. So 5 people out of the entirety of a faction are given the Okay to fight, while the rest of the faction has to sit back and twiddle their thumbs.

People bypass having to take up an ally slot by joining the faction when an invasion is announced so that they can be involved. It's a bad loophole.


People come to Chaos to write stories which include fighting. Trying to limit bullying and abuse of the system doesn't mean to stop all invasions. People should have a right to choose what story they want to tell though and not be forced into someone elses narrative. Factions should have the right to say no to an invasion WITHOUT losing the hex by default when IC, no fight had occured. We already limited the length of invasions. So why not limit the dogpiling too? Invasions take up a lot of time and when people want to do something IC like throw up an election and determine the future of the IC leadership that can change the direction of the faction, why not let the writers have the chance to do that? We have a freeze on invasions during December. Why? Because of holidays and there aren't as many people around. So people show common courtesy and respect that. Can we not keep that same level of courtesy every month? (And no, I'm not suggesting a ban).

I don't know why co-operation between writers isn't a part of the map game. Or why people that are fair players that desire a good story should be forced to stay minor and not gain territory of their own. It's a huge map. There's so much space! Why not let factions grow a good base, get big enough fleets so that they could provide opposing sides some great competition?

Maybe a Mandate for new majors, where they cannot be invaded for a few months. In return they also cannot invade anyone else, but CAN use an ally slot.

Those are my thoughts and suggestions.

 

[Kahlil Noble]

[member="Auberon"] Invasions are only two weeks long, so in fact there could be two invasions in a month between multiple factions.

You're still answering with "They did this IC, so we will punish OOC by invading at the same time instead of waiting and making a better place to write. Why? Because we can. The IC story wouldn't change at all, but they had to push forward for their IC reasoning so now it's gonna be OOC pushing time."

 

[Valdus Bral]

[member="Auberon"]

The counter invasion from the CIS is fine and the UCM plans to participate in all invasions currently in effect. However, you're combining "Good writers" with the amount of available free time per writer. This is a game after all and many people have responsibilities and cannot dedicate the time it takes to read multiple posts (because the defending faction in this scenario and others of dogpiling will always been in the minority) from multiple threads and then devise a coherent and impressive response. The amount of effort required of the defenders is much more than the attacking faction players have to put in: Dogpiling doesn't rely on IC tactics, it relies on OOC burnout. Invasions and counter invasions are fine, however the UCM did not attack multiple factions, it attacked one faction who happens to be in an alliance that involves every other major faction. It's impossible for the UCM to attack anyone without "attacking multiple factions" and it is currently impossible, seemingly, for this alliance to be attacked without invoking this dogpiling strategy.

 

[Tathra Khaeus]

I never argued between two factions within a month. No such words crossed my lips.

[member="Auberon"], but no it is a fault of the SJO and CIS. Why? Because if they really were better. They wouldn't need to dog pile. The UCM could still be in difficult circumstances ICly without OOC enforcement of an IC promise to happen concurrently within the same time frame.

That is an IC promise, not just with IC enforcement. But unnecessarily aggressive OOC enforcement.

There is zero reason for the OOC scenario playing out right now.

[member="Veiere Arenais"]

That may be the case, but if that means niche factions can't thrive. That's a failing of more than just the people involved. Think of all the greatest villains, Thanos, Vader, Hannibal. Especially Thanos as of late, in an rp viewpoint. Would such a narrow narrative story hook thrive on here even if its better than big amalgam factions? Not likely.

 

[Yula Perl]

Maybe a Mandate for new majors, where they cannot be invaded for a few months. In return they also cannot invade anyone else, but CAN use an ally slot.

I know that the focus of this thread is dog-piling, but this is a nice suggestion. Sometimes it can take a new MF a while to build up a base of regular writers and alliances. A small buffer could help encourage new MFs to participate in the map game.

 

[Tathra Khaeus]

[member="Yula Perl"]

I'm all for that mandate. And there were plenty of great mandates available in that thread as well that can help mitigate issues.

 

[Darth Bellum]

[member="Yula Perl"]

While I appreciate the sentiment and thought for newer factions, none of the factions currently involved (Save for the CIC, which I think is doing exceptionally well despite being young) in this topic are ones I would consider new, particularly the UCM which is just a renamed version of the Mandalorian Empire which has been around for over two years and longer than I have been on this site. They are by no stretch of the imagination new. But again this isn't a thread about discussing potential new mandates/amending old ones.

 

[WolfMortum]

[member="Tathra Khaeus"]

Vader was a Jedi turned Sith Lord, in the context of Star Wars, those are both hugely attractive themes for writers on the board. So depending on the writer who tries to play out that story, it's certainly doable. Look at Carnifex for example. As far as I know, he's been Dark Lord of the Sith since the start of Chaos.

Going back to my original post however, I did suggest looking into Faction Mandates, as opposed to changing the present rule-set.

 

[Kahlil Noble]

[member="Veiere Arenais"]

There was a big stint where he was demoted to Voice of another Emperor. One Sith namely.

And this thread wasn't a scream to change the current rules. It was looking for a way for people to work together better. If mandates is the way to go, well high ho silver away!

 

[Yula Perl]

[member="Kor Vexen"]

I definitely don't consider any of the factions involved in this invasion debacle to be new (aside from CIC), but I just wanted to voice my opinion for something that sounded like a nice idea.

 

[WolfMortum]

[member="Kahlil Zambrano"]

My personal OOC conduct with other writers is all I can comment on in that sense, which I've always tried to remain respectful of those I'm dealing with. Unfortunately people will disagree with one another on the internet, like you and myself here, or [member="Tathra Khaeus"] too. But we know that none of this is on a personal level, nothing in this discussion is about resentment or OOC Spite, and that's where a lot of people get caught up. I don't know if the problem is with the Factions themselves, or peoples OOC attitudes and conduct with one another that's really the heart of the issue here.

That's a whole other issue however...

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

If people have mandate ideas, either add it to the mandate thread or make a separate suggestion.

A reminder also to keep the conversation constructive and on topic.