Fanning The Flame - Dogpilie Invasions

[Vora Kaar]

I feel that the rules are fine as they are. However, if we are on the topic of mandates, then I will come up with some ideas that I feel would be better.

Dueling Factions
Pros: As a dueling faction, they can only participate in one Invasion thread at a time. Can provide 5 Allies to Any invasion they participate in, that do not count towards Ally slots of other factions.
Cons: This Faction can only be active in one Invasion. Should their Faction be allies with another, and declare aid to said ally faction, this also counts as their one allotment. Defending Invasions can only have a Max of the minimum 5 allies per invasion. Two factions that are both Dueling Factions cannot work together to raise the defensive ally slot number

Holy Crusaders:
Pros: This faction can participate in as many factions as they desire. Declaring multiple invasions against one faction, or multiple factions. Ally Count of 10.
Cons: During any of these Invasions, Other factions may provide counter attacks, or be attacked by multiple factions at the same time. No Ally count when defending.

 

[Thiavi]

I'm new here with maybe a month or two of time on the board give or take, So keep in mind that I may not be as well informed on some subjects, But I will comment based on what I have seen:

I have a total of six characters at the time of writing this, across five factions, some minor some major.
Before that, I played on hundreds of discord RPs and other platforms, Even owned one that went on for a good while,
Basically I'm saying that while I might be new to chaos by a few months, I'm not new to rp. I've seen things that worked, seen things that didn't.
The map game that I've seen technically works, but not well in my opinion. Chaos feels more like it was designed to be a war game between factions than an rp forum, which is was it's marketed as so to speak. I don't like it, and I especially don't like the attitude of "It's a win or lose game, you play it or you lose" that some folk seem to have, considering that this isn't a game, it's an rp, not even an rpg for that matter. Now, fortunately the people that feel that way appear to be a minority, so there's hope for the RPers here.

What I like the idea of making and\or changing mandates to accommodate RPers, it's a good mid ground, a compromise that would allow people on both ends of the spectrum to either keep or gain what they want.

Though, I expect certain individuals to start complaining if a large amount of factions start using mandates that work in their favor, and to those people I say: Numbers and tech have already been used an example of gaining an advantage that is "Fair", So wouldn't mandates be the same?

I'm not going to suggest specific mandates, as nantaris has already said to either make a new suggestion thread or enter the mandate thread.

Now, It seems that auberon has done that anyway, and I like his "dueling factions" concept, it looks balanced and would provide a good solution to the current subject.

the "Holy crusader" concept, I'm not sure about. "Can participate in as many factions as they desire." not sure what that means tbh.



Going back to some other posts I've seen in here:

1: that business with the public "no posts please" thread about the warning pre cis invasion, I was there when it was first posted.
Cynthia came in, posted it, posted the link to the discord and said that she'd warned the civies on a freind's planet so that the ucm could worry less IC about colateral. No one told her to do it, no one even gave her permission so to speak, We assumed that yeah she had spies, it didn't seem that far off, and then we left it that. people talk about it like the UCM as a whole decided to metagame to push some agenda. They did not, that post [which is a strange on in my opinion] was the work of an individual and should be treated as such.

In fact, The acts of individuals should always be treated as the acts of an individual until proven otherwise. people jump to conclusions way too fast, and it leads to unneeded salt and stress that could have been prevented if we'd investigate a little before blaming entire groups of people..


2: Kaine, y tho

3: Yes, if a certain set of rules, people, or actions lead someone to feel bullied, than yes they should be looked into!
The internet is no one's safe place, neither is chaos, but that doesn't mean we should make it harder just because someone doesn't feel like typing a few letters into the rules.

4: Sadly yes, niches aren't sustainable. there's not much to be done about it. I will say that minor factions don't seem to get a lot of attention, and it seems hard to grow them, but I've never been good enough with building communities to offer any advice nor constructive criticism on that.

5: Last I checked, Invasions were judged on several points, one of which being who tells the better story. So yes, invasions are very much based on story, just like dominions which are indeed a part of the map game, it's not just about pvp. pvp is an aweful word for it too, because once again this sin't a game, there are no "Players here" we are writers, and when two writers decide to write with one another it is "Writer versus writer", That's why we have pre invasion ooc threads to find an opponent to write with, we look at it and say "which of these people do i want to write with? who would be willing to help me write a story, and would I enjoy helping them write a story?"

6: Kahlil mentioned OOC intentions, more than once in fact. some people are of the impression that the CIS and CIC are dogpiling with the intention of wearing out\burning out the UCM's writers, which if true would be a horrible thing, the kind of thing that results in players leaving. Do i think that they did? No. I believe they saw a tactical opportunity that wasn't strictly forbidden by the rules and ran with it.


One last point before i end this, I mention things from a ucm point of view more than once. I do have a character in the ucm, hasn't been there long, barely any attachement IC or OOC, they're just the most active discord I'm on right now.

I might be fighting them later as my ORC character, I might be fighting my ORC buddies with my TSE character, I might be fighting them all with my EE character, I might tell them all to feth themselves IC and Ignore them with my Factionless character, or make money of of them all with my BHL character. point is, I am biased to no factions, if anything I'd be bias for my own characters. Either way, there are parts of each community and the chaos community as a whole that I enjoy talking to or stalking for their memes, And I hope that we can all see reason and treat each other kindly. Please?

 

[Darth Bellum]

[member="Thiavi"]

You've raised some solid points that I can understand and agree with, but I will rebut with my own.

1- Unfortunately, the efforts and actions of an individual will reflect on the faction they belong to, whether or not it is treated as the act of an individual isn't up to them to decide but how the rest of the board perceives it. This is wishful thinking, but alas we don't live in a perfect world, nor is any world (real or written) like that. For example, if my character (A high ranking Sith General) went out of his way to go raze an SJO planet to the ground just for the sake of razing it to the ground, and he did not do it at the behest of the Sith Empire, it wouldn't be just my character that the SJO would retaliate against, it would be against the Sith Empire as a whole. Another example that many are familiar with was the invasion of Mirial. An ally of the SJO rode a Rancor into a civilian capital building and proceeded to tear apart civilians and combatants alike. Once again, this was the action of an individual that without the consent of the faction they were assisting was acting out that reflected poorly on the SJO during this invasion.

2- Yes

3- Harassment and bullying is something taken quite seriously, granted evidence is provided and not just pointing at someone and accusing them of bullying. That is something that can be easily exploited, hence why cohesive proof of issue is provided and proper disciplinary action given out.

4- Niches are just that; niches. It caters to very specific groups that are hard to find new and interested folk in, nothing about this will change.

5- No one is forcing writers on either side to interact with each other directly, you are free to write your own narrative for the invasion as you see fit. I primarily write a lot of battlefield background noise without directly interacting with another writer as an opposing commander, and whatever I write the opposition is free to take bits off of and react to. I blew up that building? The opposition can either react to me blowing up that building and work around/away from it as they see fit or just not interact with me at all. Again it's about the story you write and whether or not it builds suspense and makes people feel like they're their and what they would be experiencing.

6- While this can be perceived as intentional burnout a lot of the times, sometimes circumstances just line up poorly for one of the parties involved and there's not much that can be done about it unless there is blatant evidence proving otherwise.

 

[Fiolette Fortan]

I realize that we're talking about "dogpiles" but I wanted to respond to the "major faction mandates" that was brought up by [member="Kay Arenais"], [member="Yula Perl"] so I'll simply tag you here [member="Valiens Nantaris"] so you can get a look as well. Ones highlighted in yellow would be the new mandates, and I really did like Carlyle's suggestion about colonies so the last one can be reworked with that in mind. Anyway, that was all - I now return to your regularly scheduled debates. *Also special thanks to [member="Khonsu Amon"] for helping me develop and reword these.

[SIZE=18pt]MAJOR FACTION MANDATES[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Relentless Horde[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Strength:[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] This faction may invade two different Major Factions simultaneously.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Weakness:[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] May only submit two dominions a month*[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Rapid Expansion[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Strength:[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] This faction may claim a fourth Dominion per month.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Weakness: [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]The fourth Dominion claimed may also be targeted by Rebellions in addition to the 3rd.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Hermit Kingdom[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Strength: [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Hexes this Major Faction owns may not be the target of Rebellions. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Weakness:[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] This Major Faction may only claim one Dominion per month.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Frontier Exploration[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Strength:[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] May submit up to four Dominions a month, however; are limited to the Tingel Arm/Unknown Regions/Wild Space/Outer Rim. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Weakness:[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] This Major Faction may not Dominion any hex from the Mid-Rim to the Deep Core, only the Tingel Arm/Unknown Regions/Wild Space/Outer Rim. This Major Faction’s third and fourth dominion are also subject to rebellions. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Interstellar Nomads[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Strength:[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] This Major Faction may abandon their current Influence Cloud & Capital Planet and relocate elsewhere on the map.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Weakness:[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] The Major Faction may not use this Mandate's strength if the Major Faction is currently engaged in an incomplete Invasion, Rebellion, or Dominion. This can only be used once every six months - may select a new Capital Planet and one Hex. May only submit one Dominion per month. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Defensive Stronghold[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Strength: [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]This Major Faction has an infinite number of Requesting Aid slots when it is defending a hex it owns from an Invasion.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Weakness: [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]This Major Faction has no Requesting Aid slots when it is Invading a hex.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=12pt]Voidborne Crusaders[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Strength:[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] This Major Faction has an infinite number of Requesting Aid slots when launching an Invasion of an Enemy Hex.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Weakness:[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] This Major Faction has no Requesting Aid slots when defending a Hex that they own.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=12pt]Galactic Contenders[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Strength:[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Applies to new Major Factions, cannot be the target of Rebellions or Invasions in their first sixty days on the map.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Weakness: [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Cannot launch Invasions and are limited to, two Dominions per month. This mandate expires after sixty days at which point the Major Faction must select a new Mandate. [/SIZE]


[SIZE=12pt]Proxy Wars[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Strength:[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Allows Minor Factions/Sub Factions to instigate rebellions against another Major Faction, granted that they are within another Major Faction’s influence cloud.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Weakness:[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] The Major Faction who governs/owns the Minor Faction or Sub Faction are subject to a counter-rebellion, and will receive no allies during either their Rebellion or the Counter. They are also limited to one Dominion per month.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]^[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Can be worked in with Carlyle’s Colonies Suggestion. [/SIZE]

 

[Vora Kaar]

the "Holy crusader" concept, I'm not sure about. "Can participate in as many factions as they desire." not sure what that means tbh.

5. A character fulfilling an aid request for another Major Faction may not join any moreInvasions until the Invasion thread they are aiding in is completed.

This rule was taken from this page here.

My thought process, was that they would be allowed to play on any invasion no matter if it was allied, or their own, and would not be restricted by this rule. the idea of the Crusades is an All out "Forward onto Glory for the God/Empire/Faction" that they tend to have. So if they ally themselves with another faction, it won't prohibit them from being able to participate within their own invasions. However, they gain no allies in the invasions where they are defending, AND since they can attack any number of times, So too can other factions hit them all at once. Its a game of Risk vs Reward. For those factions that want to outright destroy their enemy faction.

 

[Lok Xiangu]

Imagine making a mountain out of a molehill just for some invasions.

If you can’t handle being in the kitchen, get the hell outta there.

I nearly choked after the saying that dogpiling invasions is harassment/bullying.

 

[Ellie Mors]

What exactly are these dogpiling invasions? The only time I recall something like that happening was when the original Sith Empire (2013-2014) was invaded 5 ways from sunday, and the early period of the One Sith being invaded by 3 factions at once simultaneously.

And I guess, in an extremely loose example, was the First Order and Galactic Empire double invasion night.

I don't know of any others that happened since or before these three examples, and I don't see any dogpiling invasions going on now, so is there some concrete evidence of such going on?

 

[Jsc]

I nearly choked after the saying that dogpiling invasions is harassment/bullying.

^ Same.

Yo [member="Kahlil Zambrano"] , why don't you take a poll looking for people who think like you do. Otherwise. I'm not going to take this idea that multiple invasions against one faction should be considered internet harassment, and subject to immediate change.

This sounds like a whole lot of pot-banging to me.

 

[Kahlil Noble]

[member="Jay Scott Clark"] I never said it was harassment.

Just that it was rude and being nice doesn't change the IC story at all.

Polls a good idea tho. Whenever I figure out how.

 

[Jsc]

Just that it was rude and being nice doesn't change the IC story at all. Polls a good idea tho. Whenever I figure out how.

Ah. Well, I don't usually consider changing rules because "rude" but... Yeah, anyways, you can add a poll when creating a thread. It's an option under the title to the right, I believe. Cheers.

 

[Kahlil Noble]

[member="Jay Scott Clark"]

Hahey it worked. Sweet.

Also, I made the thread for it to be discussed instead of being posted in the status updates where they were just being locked. Open communication is a good thing!

 

[Cay-Yo]

It is my opinion that making it so that a faction that is under invasion cannot be invaded offensively by a completely different faction. This is completely my own opinion away from the CIS or UCM. Alliances should be used as IC reason for using OOC Ally Slots. Not burn out the writers of the smaller group.

When I was in TJE (See invasion of Copero) I was one of the only 2 writers that the TJE had while the CIS & TSE invaded Csilla & Copero at the same time. We as the TJE did not have the writers at hand to devote to 2 threads of a relatively massive size. Near the end of the invasion it was just me posting for an entire faction, a completely new player to the board. Luckily the CIS players were kind enough to not pressure me into writing a lot of posts, and even complimented me for the effort and brought me into their faction which has been amazing to me, but that is evidence that multiple invasions or "dogpiling" does not create a better story. What it does do is create OOC stress. Not many people on the board were in the TJE discord, and even less were in the upper chats like I was as I was a part of the creative team.

The stress and the hopelessness was real. People simply were not having fun. This continued, and it only did so because people did not like Vyrassu. While the players within his faction who wanted to only play an up and coming sith empire were stomped on. Did the TJE pose any legitmate threat IC to any other faction in the tiny nook of an arm they decided to be in? No. Not at all. No adjacency to any clouds. Dominions were slow and the recovery rate of loss hexes for them was essentially 0. But they were attacked again anyway. There was nothing strategic to gain. With their ability to move locations it also meant that if they kept to 3 Hexes they could have another 3 when the mandate was up again for use to escape the attacks. Nobody seemed to care. So I get while some say why change now, the reason to change now is that we should not have a repeat of that again.

I love the CIS, and I like the people in the UCM. I've been in the CIS for a while now and just recently made a character in the UCM.

I don't see why if we are going to be real about this topic and address the very serious issue of IC Story suffering to OOC Strategy that we would beat around the bush. I don't think anyone is truly convinced this is IC alone, no OOC targeting at all. As it stands in character time is not tracked 1:1 for ooc time. Meaning that the invasion could, in character, take place directly after the events of the previous thread while giving 1 or 2 real-time days for people to actually have the time and effort to participate in another thread. There is no race here. There is no prize to wiping people out. Gaining hexes for the sake of hexes is not what this should be about. And neither should be punishing people for the audacity of RPing the opposition in a universe which hinges off that interaction.

It should be about creating a story that people can enjoy. Again, Copero, that was my very first experience on the site and it will always stick with me how depressing the TJE chat became. The motivation to play was zapped from them and for what gain of anyone else? They were destroyed for existing under Vyrassu - a person who I was not a fan of myself. They did not deserve that.

 

[Jsc]

Also, I made the thread for it to be discussed instead of being posted in the status updates where they were just being locked. Open communication is a good thing!

Sometimes, yeah. Other times it's just spam and drama. Lulz. But I believe ya.

Anyway. Once you get a few writers to slap their names up on your poll? You'll have a crew you can hit up for ideas and a better idea of how the community might feel also. And. By way of invitation, the Staff loves to hear a few good solutions whenever you approach them with a problem too.

2 cents. Kill it.

 

[Jsc]

[member="Kahlil Zambrano"] - Uh. So after looking at your poll, I gotta say. It's a bit biased in it's selections and the major question you asked has nothing to do with "bullying" or "rude'ness" as it relates to Invasions at all.

So. Might I just recommend you remove the tasteless salty portions, and just go with: 1. Yes. 2. No. 3. Don't Care.

Because right now that poll looks so biased at to lose all credibility towards actually reflecting other peoples real opinions. Bleh.

 

[Kahlil Noble]

[member="Jay Scott Clark"]

I went with the three most commented opinions in the thread.

 

[Thiavi]

"You don't have permission to vote in this poll" Well rip?

 

[Adron Malvern]

It's almost as if you want a "friendly" invasion system. Well the sad truth is Invasions are competitive and that means that from time to time someone will get a little agitated at it. I'd like to point out that most of the people who advocate (MOST) for more stringent invasion rules are usually on the receiving end of a bad hand. Sucks, but it's the map game and I don't think you can change it without really taking some of the freedom of the Chaos map game.

Also, NO faction should complain about being multi invaded when they invade a faction that has allies? What was to be expected? That being said I am always up for polishing up the rules, but I don't believe limiting factions to 1x1 conflicts is the way to do it

 

[Vora Kaar]

[member="Cay-Yo"],

Your faction leader decided to not support that invasion. Your faction didn't support you. Yes, you attempted to fight for your faction. You decided to continue the fight when no one else did. I commend you greatly for that. However, blaming the other factions for something that your Faction Owner did, is not cool.

Your Faction owner directly stated, in a couple of threads, That he would bring war to the other factions. He would seek them out. So what did the other factions do? They attacked him because he, As leader, said he would attack them.

Comparing your own invasions, where you took upon yourself, to defend, was where your faction was Disqualified due to a lack of writers. That is not your fault, Nor is it reason for you being "dogpiled" You willingly walked into that. You went in there, and continued to post when you could have otherwise come to them and say "Hey, I am the only one posting. We are going to be Disqualified, so I am going to back out because I don't want stress in my life."

You made that choice.

I saw no dogpile I saw no ill intent towards you.

 

[Kahlil Noble]

[member="Thiavi"]

Gotta use your writer account.

 

[Vora Kaar]

[member="Thiavi"], Use your writer account.