Fleeting: Why Don't You Like It?

[Cyrus Tregessar]

[member="Cauis Flavian"]

What rate?

Also based on your comment, we should talk some time, cause I totally agree.

 

[Cody Weadge]

While I love fleeting... it can be frustrating. No limits on ships and reinforcements often leads to magical fleets of impossible size appearing as soon as one side starts losing. Fleet maneuvers also can be complex, which results in one writer attempting something not actually possible. Like performing an Ackbar slash with a single ship just because they saw it on Wookieepedia.

 

[Ayden Cater]

[member="Cody Weadge"]

Except there is a limit on fleet size, and no reinforcements have ever come in that weren't discussed. Fleeting is pretty tightly constrained by the fleet length rule.

 

[Caius Flavian]

[member="Cyrus Tregessar"]

HM and yeah I look forward to it!

[member="Ayden Cater"] [member="Cody Weadge"]

The Famous Ackbar slash... yes a greatly renown maneuver that truly resembles something from the 18th century.... reminds me of trying maneuver ships ofthe line in Empire Total war, gods dam impossible sometimes to keep everyone at relatively the same speed! Oh and if the lead ship was even remotely damaged there goes the whole dam line of ships break off to avoid that clusterkark of a traffick jam. Not surprisingly that is also the draw back of the ackbar slash...

I loved the novelty of that in the lore but it honestly never made sense. It seemingly was a justification for essentially trucking mon calamari vessels through a linear battle line of star destroyers... Why any commander would align his vessels on an equidistant horizontal formation limiting their fields of fire is beyond me. But i guess that is why the original empire fell...
Also Why the hell not can it not be performed by a single vessel? If you are one vessel versus two and they just so happen be on an equidistant horizontal formation then why not blast through the center of them unleashing broadsides? Now one versus 3? I don't know I guess you are diving through one of their median lines to break through.

After poring through this thread again I'm actually fairly excited to see what comes of this.

I like how we are all drifting toward making a standard approach in how to conduct fleeting.
What gets me though the most is like you are saying there Cody Weadge (and seems to be a general perspective many share) is the problem of fairy dusting reality.
"I'm losing a battle? Well that won't do, I'll just conjure up an armada I just so happened to leave behind that space tree out there and do away with you nuisances."

As writers in a role playing group we all are acknowledging that we are not writing just for ourselves but others too. If one is doing something that seems meta or unusually detrimental to the story then it needs to be stated right away. The battle is a collaborative effort that both sides should work out of character to understand and achieve a suitable outcome with a Roleplay judge actively facilitating things if needed.

I would love to try out both the new system and, if anyone is also willing, to test a purely narrative driven fleet action.

 

[Cody Weadge]

[member="Cauis Flavian"]

The problem is that the writer was stating that by using it with one ship they were doing more damage than the star destroyers could return. Which is flawed. Yes, each star destroyer can only turn half its guns to the ship, but the slashing ship can only turn half its guns toward each ship. So you now have one ship shooting two targets, with two targets shooting back. Simple mathematics at this point. Each star destroyer takes half the mon cal ship's weapons in damage. The mon cal ship in return takes two ship's half weapons, so a full ship's worth of damage. The Star Destroyers get hurt, the mon cal ship gets creamed.

The only reason the Ackbar slash as its written could work is with a line of ships. Even then its not really a good maneuver because it relies on the star destroyers reluctance on shooting in the direction of an allied ship. This assumes those ships let the enemy ship maneuver so to pass perfectly between them, which is extremely easy to avoid in a three-dimensional environment. As well as assuming that Imperials wouldn't shoot at each other. Anyone that understands the Empire understands they'd sooner risk shooting each other than let an enemy shoot them unscathed. There is the risk of hitting an ally, or the certainty of being destroyed by the enemy.

[member="Ayden Cater"]

There is no limit to fleet size. I've checked every rule page, and all through the factory. And every time a new writer comes in with a fleet, that's reinforcements that have not been discussed. Not abusive perhaps, but lets try not to use absolutes.

 

[Ayden Cater]

[member="Cody Weadge"]

Check the start of every single Invasion. There's an agreed upon total fleet length at the start of each one when fleeting is an objective. In my entire history on the board (basically its entire existence) I have never seen it broken.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

There's no hard rule because there's no need to legislate everything.

Faction leaders set fleet limits. If anyone is dumb and tries to summon a magical fleet they get reported and the post is removed.

 

[Ayden Cater]

^

This.

 

[Caius Flavian]

[member="Cody Weadge"]

Yup yup,
I believe you and I are well on the same side of that particular maneuvers absurdity.
I would never use that tactic and its really just trash reasoning. Lol I didn't mean to blow that up out of the water so to speak on that move. Lol and yes a person new to naval tactics who may be familiar with that maneuver and uses it willy nilly expecting victory will suffer. Which is part of the learning process. Granted I would hope their character makes into the escape pod and and then gets captured (or rescued) giving room for character development!
The only reason that tactic I would ever be used in a desperate attempt to break through a blockade! <_<

The real issue at heart of what we can discuss is what are some simple basic maneuvers and tactics that can be disseminated to others for use that can really flesh out what the hell their fleet compositions look like. Sure you can have a ten battleships as just your fleet but that without other vessels to compliment make up for the battleships weaknesses then best of luck when those rebels find that exhaust port you boarded up!

I know its not star wars but one great example of a basic tactic in a capital ship versus capital ship battle is viewed through this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=828Yf7JVU_M (mind the music its not my video)
Note the establishment of a flak field of fire. Now in RL we don't have lasers with seemingly limitless rounds or BSGs case endless shrapnel to put up in the air with CIWS.
That aside.
Now utilizing your forces, lets say single cruiser with several frigates you can establish multiple fields of flak making star fighter maneuvering difficult and allowing your own fighters a zone of safety (well near safety as friendly fire does exist) with corridors of void space open for them to fly through.
Of course now that begs the question of how the hell are you arranging your vessels to do this?

I'm probably just putting nails on a chalk board at this point. But that is the challenge in roleplaying out a large scale battle.

I guess at the end of the day we can always take cue from how most pen and paper rpg books purport that the big battle is just background noise and what the characters do is all that matters. Cause really if it wasn't for Han and Leia taking down the shield that Deathstar would never have blown up.

[member="Valiens Nantaris"]

Lol I know I was just remarking on how that seems to be the general complaint of those who must have encountered some sort of perceived godmodding or was envisioning that to be the case.
I mean some people think the force is magic

EDITED: Cause whoopsies wrong link! Fixed

 

[Ayden Cater]

[member="Cauis Flavian"]

You might want to check your video link

 

[Caius Flavian]

[member="Ayden Cater"]
Whoops!!! Teach me to have multiple tabs open lol!

 

[Ayden Cater]

[member="Cauis Flavian"]

Ah BSG... A great series.

 

[Garith Darkhold]

I know what I said and I still stick by that I want more story then just numbers. Listening to this discussion and seeing Hapens at the check-ins I decided to pull out my main Fleeter. Still though before going into any Fleet engagement I would like to set out something that would reflect more of a story along with this system a lot of people are trying to put in place.

 

[Cody Weadge]

[member="Ayden Cater"] Not quite sure why you are trying to argue the point so hard. I'm pointing out things that I've actually encountered in twelve years of RPing so that we can consider them and work toward making fleeting generally more enjoyable for everyone. Just because it might not have happened here yet, does not mean a new fleeter won't do so in the future.

 

[Beowoof]

I mean some people think the force is magic

Finally! I share that sentiment, sir!

 

[Alva Calvarona]

@Beowoof @Cauis Flavian

it is magic! Just ask any Crinan!

O__O

Also I'm also of the notion as well that we do have more of a number orientation (10,000 meters made up of just about any kind of ship and usually under the command of 1 or 2 people normally), and while I don't see it abused I do think it does discourage others who want a more story/personal focus. Which is why I would push for smaller fleets (Does not mean restricted by type though) per commander/fleeter, a maximum fleet allowance set by faction leaders per thread, and maybe then we can encourage more people with larger fleeting engagements if we make the largeness of the battles be contributed to by the number of pilots and captains and such we can get active.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

So I'm putting together a basic primer of fleet combat.

It won't be 100% canon, it won't be to everyone's liking, and as such it's open to change if needed.

But what it will be is a clear manual for what to do and how to choose a fleet.

Hopefully.

 

[Camellia Swift]

[member="Valiens Nantaris"]

Sounds cool! When/where should we look for it?

 

[Captain Larraq]

There's no hard rule because there's no need to legislate everything.

Faction leaders set fleet limits. If anyone is dumb and tries to summon a magical fleet they get reported and the post is removed.

Not always true.


Circe summoned a magical fleet at Dromund Kaas and still got her butt handed to her.

Also, due to the terms of engagement, the OS ended up getting a vastly larger force of ships during an Invasion against the Republic because they chucked more individual writers into space.

Which ended up not mattering because Ayden and Popo handed them their backsides IIRC.



Because, you know, it's not the size that counts.

 

[Captain Larraq]

@Beowoof @Cauis Flavian

it is magic! Just ask any Crinan!

O__O

Also I'm also of the notion as well that we do have more of a number orientation (10,000 meters made up of just about any kind of ship and usually under the command of 1 or 2 people normally), and while I don't see it abused I do think it does discourage others who want a more story/personal focus. Which is why I would push for smaller fleets (Does not mean restricted by type though) per commander/fleeter, a maximum fleet allowance set by faction leaders per thread, and maybe then we can encourage more people with larger fleeting engagements if we make the largeness of the battles be contributed to by the number of pilots and captains and such we can get active.

This was tried and was an utter failure.

Why?

Because nobody likes to be told what to do by a stranger on the internet.

The New Order attempted an Invasion of Dromund Kaas. A total fleet limit was set and divided among three writers. Myself, Syn, and another. I came up with a battleplan and held 90% of the fleet in reserve. Syn got impatient and magically teleported 'her ships' for a suicide rush on the middle of the enemy fleet just so she could jump out an airlock and attempt a boarding action.

Yeah, in theory it's cool and great and everything is awesome because different people are roleplaying different tiers of command.

In practice? Everyone is disorganized and random retard number 3 is screwing everything up for everyone and your opponent is magically working together flawlessly because the entire fleet is organized under a single writer who knows what he's doing.....

All in all, I think having one primary fleeter write against one other primary fleeter created a better story. You end up with a battle of wits between two admiral-types and everything works together cohesively. The more you split things up the greater the potential for disaster.

A few squadrons of fighters led by PC pilots? A Frigate and some escorts captained by a PC commander? A single HC or Star Destroyer run by random faction basass PC number 7?

Ok, that's fine. That adds to the mix! Depending on what rules are being used and how well you coordinate.