Fleeting: Why Don't You Like It?

[Ayden Cater]

Honestly, I don't think any of those steps are needed. The fear and anxiety with fleeting is unwarranted. It's no more terrifying than making a duelist for the first time. The problem is that most people didn't make fleeters as their first characters, they made duelists. I know turbolaser characters and ship formations. They know lightsaber forms and Force powers. It's all relative. The problem is that it's new for most people, so they're terrified of it.

The three biggest fleeters on the board (Myself, Larraq, and Cyrus) are all good guys. Valiens, Popo, and Ashin are also some folks very knowledgeable about fleet engagements. I can't speak for them, but I very happily talk with my opponents. Hell, I even give tips and pointers that reflect obvious IC knowledge, but that might not be known OOCly, when it comes to squaring off against me. I find much more enjoyment out of creating good atmosphere and stories than I do anything else.

 

[Kamon's OOC]

For those interested, I am forming an "Idiots Guide to Fleeting" within the Warmongers faction. If people want to contribute ideas, or offer critiques, please do so.

 

[Captain Larraq]

The three biggest fleeters on the board (Myself, Larraq, and Cyrus) are all good guys.

Negative. I am a meat-popsicle.

 

[Ellie Mors]

I propose 3 main avenues to improve matters.

1. The submission of fleets to the NPC area of the Codex, just like land units. Factions can submit multiple ‘templates’ so that they can select from any approved combinations of these fleets. Said fleets would have size limits, and each fleeter would be able to bring one of these submitted fleets to a battle.
2. Cut down on complexity of the actual fleeting action itself by simplifying matters. A measure-countermeasure system allows new and old fleeters to effectively RP each other, combined with the smaller fleet sizes to make things easier to understand. An example of this is the old rock-scissors-paper game where one type of attack is countered by another.
3. Offer incentives or minor rewards for those judged to play and take losses fairly in these RPs. These would be things like signature rank titles and the like. The biggest problem has always been writers not taking hits when they should, so promote good behaviour. On the flip side, writers will be encouraged not to death charge enemy fleets because doing so will reduce the ability of their faction to win that battle.

There are dozens of ways this sort of thing could be done. From tracking production of ships to in-depth combat systems, but that only furthers and increases the niche aspect of this.

If we want more people to fleet we need to remove the arcane, over-complicated mess that it is now. And yes, for experienced fleeters this might seem like a dumbing down, but we need to at least try to get people involved, or fleeting will always be a fringe and neglected part of the board’s RP.

If not dumb it down, I highly suggest explaining it. It isn't so much that it is too complex, it is that no one has properly explained it to some of us, and thus we have no desire to go out of our way to learn how to do something.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

Exactly [member="Darth Sinna"], I’m not saying I’m dumbing things down, just making it more understandable.

[member="Ayden Cater"], that’s 6 people, so by default that means that not every faction is covered, and that’s 6 out of what…100+…daily active writers? That’s why fleeting isn’t used often in invasions because a half dozen writers hold the fates of dozens of others in their hands.

I will do something up to try and explain my view of how fleeting can work today.

 

[Alva Calvarona]

I fleet, I use Cam and Alva for it mostly.

And to be honest I see people neglect army combat too during ground stuff. They mostly just do straight PvP. People really ignore NPCs and consider them worthless trash to be struck down, or if they're super special than their owner doesn't let them take much damage. I find this is odd even though we've seen in canon how clones gunned down most of the jedi, heck Droids did a good job at Geonosis too. And there's been plenty of books, comics, and games that show similar instances of mighty warriors of all types, Jedi/Sith/Bounty Hunters/Mandalorians/Commandos, being brought down by just either overwhelming numbers or poor plans of attack.

I think it less comes down to rules and technical knowledge as it does no one gives much credit to things that aren't directly a result of their character. Which really makes me sad we don't at least see more dog fighting with starfighters. I'd love to see that, and I'm sad to see how we have over 6 PC squadrons (Rogue, Wraith, Skull, Silver, Scarface, Ragnell, and Dyrie) but very few takers for any. Each has about 3-4 pilots max.

I think maybe a problem we have is most fleets are too large, but that's usually due to people usually splitting them up if there's multiple fleeters.

Because of this I really like [member="Valiens Nantaris"] and his idea for submitting fleets. I'd like to recommend a few variations of fleet sizes to help out. I also think the rock paper scissors makes sense too. Ion cannons > Turbolasers against Shields, Turbolasers > Ion Cannons against Hull (unless your trying to disable people non-fatally), Missiles > All vs Hull but have limited ammo/range comparatively, Defense Guns > all against starfighters/anti missiles.

Speed to me only real effects your tactics and whether you can run away/catch up well.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

I hope to similarly expand land combat after fleeting.

We'll call it Grounding.

 

[Ayden Cater]

[member="Alva Calvarona"]

How does a large fleet affect the ability of someone to dogfight?

 

[Alva Calvarona]

[member="Ayden Cater"]

It doesn't effect dog fighting, that issue I meant specifically for fleeting. With too many units people feel pressure juggling them all to win I think. A smaller fleet with around 10-12 ships max I think ends up being a healthy comfort/control zone for people. At least from my experiences.

 

[Captain Larraq]

[member="Ayden Cater"]

It doesn't effect dog fighting, that issue I meant specifically for fleeting. With too many units people feel pressure juggling them all to win I think. A smaller fleet with around 10-12 ships max I think ends up being a healthy comfort/control zone for people. At least from my experiences.

a 'small fleet', for a major faction's naval actions is around 10,000 meters of ships. In my own experience, a PC lead wing of starfighters or bombers will be about as effective as a PC commanded Cruiser or Heavy Cruiser while NPC wings are 'just another formation'.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

So this is the first of potentially several posts detailing my views on how to fix fleeting and make it more accessible to people previously unsure or unable to do so.

First up a fleet template to add to the NPC area of the codex.

Fleet Template

Name: (For example “The Dark Lord’s Fist” or “Republic Battlegroup”)
Faction: (Which Major Faction does this fleet serve?)
Rarity: (Is this fleet a unique grouping of ships, or is it a common organisation which can be replicated in battle? The possible ratings are Unique, Rare, Common)
Commander: (Optional unless the fleet is Unique, in which case it can only be led by one leader)
Composition: (List the ships of corvette size or above in your fleet and give them names. The rarer a fleet the more ships it can have, though these rarer fleets are tied to one leader and may require development threads to assemble. Rare fleets are also well known so enemies can devise counters for them in expectation.)
(A Common fleet will generally have between 2500 metres and 3500 metres. A Rare fleet will generally have between 3500 metres and 5000 metres. A Unique fleet might have between 5000 metres and 7000 metres.)
(Any number of writers from a faction may use a common fleet in battle, whilst only two can use a rare fleet, and a unique fleet can only be used by its specified commander.)
Strengths: (List strengths of this fleet)
Weaknesses: (List weaknesses of this fleet)
Description: (Give a description of this fleet, its usual strategies and tactics)
Intent: (Why are you making this fleet?)
Links: (List submissions for all ships in this fleet, as well as development threads for this fleet if applicable)

Quick Selection:

To help new fleeters quickly build up a fleet, a couple of templates are assembled below. All that is needed is to choose from your faction’s ship list to fill in the blanks and total the amount up. These are by no means comprehensive, but make a starting area from which to expand.

Common:

The Support Squadron:

• 1 x Heavy Cruiser or 2 x Cruisers
• 1 x Cruisers or 2 x Frigates
• 2 x Frigates
• 4 x Corvettes

The Battle Squadron:

• 1 x Star Destroyer or 1 x Heavy Cruiser
• 1 x Heavy Cruiser or 2 x Cruisers
• 2 x Frigates or 4 x Corvettes

Rare:

Line Breaker Squadron:

• 2 x Star Destroyers or 3 x Heavy Cruisers
• 1 x Cruiser or 2 x Frigates
• 2 x Frigates or 2 x Corvettes
• 2 x Corvettes

Carrier Squadron

• 1 x Star Destroyers
• 2 x Heavy Cruisers or 3 x Cruisers
• 4 x Frigates
• 4 x Corvettes

The above are just examples, subject to balancing etc, but gives you an idea of my concept.

 

[Alva Calvarona]

[member="Valiens Nantaris"]

I like it, except rather than cap the smaller ships, I think we should only cap Heavy Cruiser and above and then have a max meter allotment. Unless its ok to exchange the heavy cruisers above for more smaller ships and vice versa. I think that would be cool!

o w o

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

That could work, yeah.
[member="Alva Calvarona"]

The quick picks are only that though. There's no hard limits on what you submit, those are merely balanced suggestions for new people wanting to submit a fleet, so it should therefore be as free of math as possible.

 

[Aldous Hofmann]

The main issue I've had with it is the hamfisted way some approach it, as mentioned before this is likely due to time, and the temptation to spam win. If done for story's sake it can be one of the most epic things you can write but since a lot of battles are written to win it ends up lacking. It also requires both sides communicating constantly like most epic things that happen on RP forums.

 

[Kamon's OOC]

[member="Valiens Nantaris"]
I'd ask you to marry me if I wasn't straight and married...

 

[Nyxie]

The main issue I've had with it is the hamfisted way some approach it, as mentioned before this is likely due to time, and the temptation to spam win. If done for story's sake it can be one of the most epic things you can write but since a lot of battles are written to win it ends up lacking. It also requires both sides communicating constantly like most epic things that happen on RP forums.

Well, war is about winning. And not many people would run such an otherwise complex roleplay knowing they must lose. However, it would be better if people went in hoping to win but prepared to lose, and everyone stayed on the same page about it. Some of my PvP threads on all manner of sites, some optional like here, some forced for survival, were all very motivated and given quality by that desire to "win;" it's a strong incentive. It's just handled wrong.

The problem isn't the fleeter winning, it's the one group getting salty at the other when they lose. I've seen it.

 

[Cyrus Tregessar]

Had a post here for [member="Valiens Nantaris"], but it started getting long and now I'd rather just write an article on fleet composition, so hold out for that.

I do want to acknowledge what [member="Ayden Cater"] has been saying about communication with your opponent. Perhaps more so in fleeting than in regular PvP it's a pretty essential point. Obviously, that all works a hell of a lot better if both parties are more concerned with the story than the outcome.

 

[Aldous Hofmann]

[member="Nyxie"]
Maybe I'm just an oddball then

 

[Mrrew]

[member="Niamh Raste"] - When you make the idiot's guide for fleeter's, tag me if you could. Always wanted to make one.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

[member="Cyrus Tregessar"]

Alrighty then.