Fleeting: Why Don't You Like It?

[Ayden Cater]

If you want to make a template for fleet comps, fine, but I refuse to accept a "You can only have so many ships in this fleet" template. That is not for anyone to decide but the factions themselves.

A better set up would instead simple ask that the fleet comp be covered in its entirety rather than limiting it from the start.

 

[Alva Calvarona]

[member="Ayden Cater"]

I actually would prefer if they did do something like that. A standard would be nice and it in no way limits the factions since you could likely make a statement about how many fleets can enter a battle with the appropriate number of writers. It would be a lot more open for the newer people interested in fleeting I think. Not to mention more realistic.

And again, as said, the factions can still determine the amount of ships/fleets allowed in. This also eliminates a lot of the abuse mentioned before if Apprentice Bob comes in with 5 command carriers every time.

 

[Ayden Cater]

[member="Alva Calvarona"]

This also eliminates a lot of the abuse mentioned before if Apprentice Bob comes in with 5 command carriers every time.

That's a faction issue. If a faction wants to let Apprentice Bob show up with five very expensive ships, then that's their decision.

Again, the common complaint has been "Fleeting is too confusing / has too many rules", and the first thing suggested on how to fix it... is to add more rules that will make things convoluted and confusing. Just leave things to the factions. Don't try and tell them all what to do.

What OP considers a Battle Group, the Republic might have a differing opinion. OP might say "A fleet is made of X ships that total 25km in length". The Republic might say 10km. These differences are evened out with the near universally accepted rule of "Each side gets to bring Ykm of ship" If the agreed upon length is 100km, OP would bring 4 full fleets and the Republic would bring in 10. That's flavor. That's faction decisions at work.

 

[Kamon's OOC]

If we don't try to instill actual rules, instead of the fact that there are no rules, then things continue with the whole "fleeting doesn't matter" and then realism continues to be something that doesn't exist. Instead you get crappy invasions where everyone is just automatically there because we're all happy go lucky in space and let the enemy land on our planets. Yeah, no.

Don't expect that when you face the Remnant. You're gonna work hard against us, so suck it up.

Anyways, rules don't always make things harder. Good rules make things easier, and more understood. Also, as I previously mentioned while logged into Niamh, I'm writing a fleeting guide. That will help, too.

As for numbers, factions have consistently shown an inability to know what a decent size for a fleet is, showing up with several armada's rather than a fleet. I think having a template with base makeups is perfect. If you don't like the restrictions, I would suggest making unique ships to fill the roles, then. There are other ways besides numbers to have advantages. I used to win fleet fights with less ships than my opponent back in the day simply by outmaneuvering them with superior technology. But I understood what was reasonable as far as fleet size goes.

Rules and guides are a necessity for people to learn. Realism is important to a good story. Every writer will tell you that even in a fantasy setting, if it can't be perceived as plausible, it won't work.

 

[Alva Calvarona]

I think this should be left up to everyone though. It'd be nice to see what the people who are new and interested think about the situation and what else Val will explain when he has the time.

Leaping to judgments now at this stage about anything is a bit early.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

[member="Ayden Cater"]
That template, as stated on the post is OPTIONAL, and is a quick design for new people.

If you want to do a fleet with 20 corvettes no one is stopping you.

 

[Allyson Locke]

[member="Mason Deschart"]

Alright.

The whole "people just show up" is false. There are discussions between the faction leaders and most take the route of "no fleeting" because it does have a negative image on the board. Not many people do it. SO if you want to fleet in an invasion you're more than welcomed to, but remember that we're here to write and to enjoy the stories we come up with. The Factory Staff along with [member="Valiens Nantaris"] is creating a guide to help people who want to learn how to Fleet. I suggest taking the council of those who are known on the board as fleeters such as [member="Valiens Nantaris"] [member="Ayden Cater"] and [member="Alva Calvarona"]. These people know their stuff and I've personally gone to them with my own questions.

The guide will not be called an "Idiots Guide to Fleeting" mostly because I find that title a bit snobbish and degrading. People want to learn and if I want to put a percentage on the number of people who actually fleet on Chaos it would be around 10% of the population. We should be nurturing the interest of those that want to learn - make this a welcoming concept instead of wanting to shove numbers and elitist tones down their throats. The guide will be there to help.

Also rules are discussed at the time of the Skirmish and the Invasion - implementing an actual rule set in my opinion would standardize things, but doesn't really help with situational times. I feel its in the best interest of the Role Play that the rules are flexible and that people can work together to adjust what they want and agree on it.

First rule of everything: Talk to each other. With out the other person you don't have a role play.

 

[Kamon's OOC]

I know that Spencer. But they still just generally show up on the planet, without even any mention of fighting through to the planet. I've seen it done a million times. It's fine if that's what people want to do. Not realistic, but it's fine.

I've been fleeting longer than most of the people here have been RPing, so I don't need to talk to people about fleeting. I know how to do it, hence why I'm writing a guide. Alva/Cam and I talk on a regular basis about ships and fleeting. I've posted a lot in the Warmongers about it, even.

As for the guide, I rather like the title, and if you read the first sentence in the guide itself it indicates that the title is to provide some levity, not a judgment of the person reading the guide. And, as the guide title is based on a well known book line http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_Idiot%27s_Guides, I don't really think it needs changed. I've bought several of the books in the past and they're rather good. There is also the ever popular Dummies Guide.

[member="Spencer Jacobs"]

 

[Ashin Varanin]

[member="Mason Deschart"]

fleet me irl

 

[Kamon's OOC]

[member="Ashin Varanin"]
*goes to find chess board*

 

[Allyson Locke]

[member="Mason Deschart"] Your tone of the post that was conveyed was degrading, hence why I spoke about it. Also I'm well aware of the book line, I actually have the wine and beer version. Also realistic? We RP star wars and that "realism" that you're mentioning again was decided up on between the Faction Admins/Owners for the given Invasion. If one was like no, gotta get through planetary defenses then they would discuss further.There's a reason why there is a meeting between the leaders to discuss rules and objectives. No one just "magically" decides to plop on the planet without an agreement from the opposing party.

I've been fleeting longer than most of the people here have been RPing, so I don't need to talk to people about fleeting. I know how to do it, hence why I'm writing a guide. Alva/Cam and I talk on a regular basis about ships and fleeting. I've posted a lot in the Warmongers about it, even.

You shouldn't close yourself off from discussing it with people. People are interested and no one knows your past here with Fleeting. If you discussed it and tried to help then do so. Like I said - Staff is already in the works for a Fleeting Guide.

 

[Kamon's OOC]

I'm not. Hence my posting in the warmongers about it, and discussing it with people on Skype all the time.

And as I said, I know that was what was decided on most of the time. I simply pointed out that it isn't very realistic.

And yeah, we RP Star Wars, but as I said earlier, everything that's written, be it Science Fiction or Fantasy, has to be realistic. Let's face it, the Empire never just let people waltz onto their planet without having to deal with a defensive force. That's true in the books or the movies. They didn't just waltz through the enemy fleet like it wasn't there, unless they did it through stealth means. That was the point I was trying to make. And it's fine if some people don't want to do things that way. It's not to say it can't be done. I just don't find it to be realistic, unless it's done in the manner of Rogue Squadron's infiltration of Coruscant.

And I'm glad staff is writing a guide, but I'm still writing one as well. Mine doesn't involve hard set rules or anything. It's literally an easy to read version of what fleeting is supposed to be like/be about is all.

 

[Cyrus Tregessar]

As for numbers, factions have consistently shown an inability to know what a decent size for a fleet is, showing up with several armada's rather than a fleet.

This brings up a good point. People have very different ideas of what a 'fleet' is. It's mostly semantics with the way we restrict things by length, but I tend to go off the modern US Navy sense of the term, which is a largely administrative organization. I prefer terms like Task Force, Strike Group, Battle Group or Squadron to represent an actual fielded combat unit.

Wookiepedia says an Imperial Navy 'Fleet' consisted of 4-6 Star Destroyers and hundreds of other ships.

I'm not advocating standardized terms or anything, but this does highlight the importance of communication when it comes to fleeting.

 

[Captain Larraq]

This brings up a good point. People have very different ideas of what a 'fleet' is. It's mostly semantics with the way we restrict things by length, but I tend to go off the modern US Navy sense of the term, which is a largely administrative organization. I prefer terms like Task Force, Strike Group, Battle Group or Squadron to represent an actual fielded combat unit.

Wookiepedia says an Imperial Navy 'Fleet' consisted of 4-6 Star Destroyers and hundreds of other ships.

I'm not advocating standardized terms or anything, but this does highlight the importance of communication when it comes to fleeting.

Personally, I view a normal naval engagement as consisting of 10km, 20km, 30km, 40km, or 50km of ships per side. Beyond that, and it really becomes impossible for individual writers (other than primary fleeters) to have an effect on combat.

The issue isn't so much about nerfing fleeting as it needs to be about up-playing individual pilots with a single personal Frigate or Corvette, or the handful of people that like to grab a Starfighter and lead a squadron. Most fleeters that I've seen have been fairly accommodating when it comes to taking hits from secondary and tertiary writers in these sort of engagements.

It also helps people if the individuals handing a dozen or more ships make it easy for individuals to keep track of their ships.

This can often be done by adding a spoiler at the end of you post that breaks up your fleet into formations, lists the ships in those formations, and provides a TLDR/Visual aid to list/show where each ship is, what it is doing, how it and its formation are moving, and what damage it's taken or who it is shooting at.

Formation 1 ---- Moving towards planet on eastern flank, shooting at Enemy Formation 5
Assault Wing A (3x Heavy Cruisers)
Escort Wing A (2x Corvettes, 1x Frigate)
Escort Wing B (2x Corvettes, 1x Frigate)

Formation 2 ---- Holding position and bombarding Enemy Formation 1, 2, and 3
Siege Battlegroup (3x Star Destroyers)
Heavy Escort Battlegroup (5x Heavy Cruisers)


exc


It lets individual writers glance at the spoiler, figure out what's going on, and decide where to take their single PC commanded frigate and handful of Corvettes/Light Freighters and engage a target that wont instantly annihilate them.

 

[Nyxie]

Still too complicated for the average nugget.

 

[Captain Larraq]

Still too complicated for the average nugget.

Then the average nugget-

You know what...

I'm not gonna finish that statement till I'm sober.

 

[Kenrath]

I hope to similarly expand land combat after fleeting.

We'll call it Grounding.

When you get ot the grouding part tag me I would love to help out with that aspect.

 

[Ayden Cater]

Talking with people about fleeting goes beyond simple how-to. It's a common courtesy you should extend to everyone. I know I do. This isn't a game, and it isn't a contest. This is a community, and it's story-building.

 

[Raziel]

I do formations for larger battles, if I had more fleeters in the ASA I'd give them control of a formation and objectives to carry out. As discussed elsewhere, I think joining in with control of one ship would be a good way to get introduced, without the stress.

 

[Caius Flavian]

I've dabbled in "Fleeting" before way back in the day of roleplaying. Granted my experiences were with maritime combat and space is just a little different in terms of what you need to be aware. (No friction and all and you have to be wary of gravity wells). Yet the concept of fleeting or commanding multiple vessels against another person doing the same is challenging and can be very rewarding. The issue I find for most people who wish to get into the idea is patience.

The use of a navy traditionally is maintain the security of the state and its borders, protecting its trade lanes, and projecting power.

I've been talking a lot lately with some my officers (i'm enlisted in the US Navy) on the strategic warfare of an actual conflict with another nation with an opposing naval force. The idea primarily is despite our seemingly overwhelming superiority in sum total of vessels is that we will never be committing the entire arsenal of the navy to a single battle or Area of Operations. Battles are likely to take place versus smaller elements in a wider scheme of things. An element of naval warfare that is constant is denial of assets and use of facilities. This works in tandem with deception warfare from simple feints to cyber/espionage being in use. Combined the idea is to assail and destroy the enemies ability to resupply and reduce their combat capabilities. Whether through destruction of the enemy vessels or their bases.

I've recently taken part in acting as a conduit of information for the logistics of fleet movement and let me tell you it is constant tempo of needing to communicate information (its scary seeing our taxpayer money actually in action!) in order to put that warhead on a forehead.

So with that regard for roleplaying, narrative, and story driven these I feel are areas people just don't want to explore because it doesn't fit the focus of their character. Which is perfectly fine if you are not roleplaying someone who is in a position of power and authority. Yet if you are it is then the responsibility of the writer to learn and understand these things in order to at least be familiar with the aspect of how things actually function in order to be collaborative.

I could write a whole book on things that actually do occur with in the military, most of it seemingly mundane, but it is those moments that really give your character depth. The waiting, the meetings, the discussions and strategy. Whether its out of character or in character. The build up to "Fleeting" and the story behind how your star destroyer came to be chasing that CR90 is an odyssey. Managing even just a simple scenario like that between two PC's can be tough because there has to be compromise.

I feel like I rambled here but I hope this adds a different perspective. The best thing to remember is to have fun with it! Our characters are slugging it out against one another as if we are in a boxing match, in this case we are using our minds to move our body and that body is made of your fleet. It's a dance and the story can be beautifully written.