Knight

[Jsc]

[member="Aleya Dajov"]

Sure. To start, how do you feel when I say: This website does not require character approval?

What do you think is the logic behind that? And, why do you think it has made us so successful? ...Can that same logic be applied to Knight Rank too? Or should RPJs and FAs still be able to vet their promotions?

Technically, I agree with you. So I don't really need to ask any questions at this point.

 

[Curupira Hawk]

[member="Jay Scott Clark"]

I would love to agree with you but my whole roleplaying experience, especially since my return back in 2010. tells me that it's just not true. When you give them the option of a quick advancement, they take it. When you give them the choice of three threads of which only one has to be a training thread to become a knight, they jump to it in a heartbeat. Same applies to Master.

 

[Jsc]

Writer maturity is generally low in new writers, which was my specific example. Regardless, abuse wasn't the reason behind my distaste for this suggestion. See my latter two paragraphs.

I was searching for clarification along a very specific line of thinking. No biggie. The reasons you gave in your last two paragraphs were very well written and I have no further questions or insights into them. They are your opinion, well pondered, well thought out, and you are welcome to them.

Thanks gal!

 

[Jsc]

[member="Jay Scott Clark"]

I would love to agree with you but my whole roleplaying experience, especially since my return back in 2010. tells me that it's just not true. When you give them the option of a quick advancement, they take it. When you give them the choice of three threads of which only one has to be a training thread to become a knight, they jump to it in a heartbeat. Same applies to Master.

I'm pro-advancement and pro-freedom. I think more Knights is a good thing overall. Though, you are welcome to disagree. Heck, the fact that your whole career supports your playstyle is downright amazing to me. I think that's pretty cool. Nice!

I also personally hate training threads with a dying passion. So... Yeah. I'm evil like that. Mughahaha.

Cheers Ruu!

 

[Jairus Starvald]

Let's not forget that training threads are most definitely not a compulsory component to getting an advancement to Knight or Master. I know cases were writers have done exactly zero of them and still got up'ed to Knight first and Master second.

Honestly though, this suggestion might even out the playing field, considering the fact that major factions can promote you to Knight on their own standards.

Standards which can be as high as: "Do twenty training threads spread out across every single core power, five hundred posts of inter-character development and you also need to be intensely active in every invasion/dominion that pops up." or as low as: "Oh, hey. Yeah I saw you supported us in this invasion or that dominion, cool man. If you want that Knight-tag is yours, enjoy!"

At the end of the day I think the responsibility and choice should be on the writer. If they want to immediately skip to the Knight-phase... that should be their prerogative as the writer of their character, if they want to do a ton of Padawan/Apprentice roleplay first? Awesome, they can do that too.

Because at the end of the day its their character and they should be able to progress their character as fast or as slow as they want them to.

 

[Connor Harrison]

My old character Krius was advanced to Knight from Apprentice, without a Master or training threads.

All I did was simple develop him realistically through threads with others; his combat, learning and experiences were created through character interaction and exploration of other worlds and situations. I wasn't going to abuse the "system", but I felt I had plenty of story to have Krius self-teach the Force and also teach others without it being a specific training thread.

Just respect your own character's development really, and make it as enjoyable and real as you can for your own character. If they aren't one to have a Faction or Master, don't feel you have to have one just to progress and claim a title. Do it yourself, logically, and in a creative and fun way with others.

 

[Jsc]

[member="Connor Harrison"]

Would you be completely offended if I invited you again to answer to three very specific questions I posed in the 1st post Connor?

 

[Connor Harrison]

[member="Jay Scott Clark"] I'm offended, as I see other's haven't. But the offence will go in time...one day....

...in the mean time here's my answers!


Q1: What are some of the good things that can come from imagining such a change?
No pressure for those feeling they need to join a faction, or train and really go through something that can be seen as laborious if it's not in their character's notion or they aren't very confident about hitting 'certain marks' to obtain a title that...really...doesn't do anything except split groups in three tiers, and doesn't mean anything in terms of ability or writing.


Q2: What are some of the bad things that can come too?
Character development may dip, which maybe isn't bad to some people, but seeing characters with logical backstory and development is an engaging thing to see and to write with. If that is forsaken at the ability to rank-up quick, then maybe important parts of a character will be neglected by both writer and those writing with.



Q3: And most importantly, what does Rank mean to you really in May 2016?
Nothing. It's just a title to your character that people will call you and have to "respect" you by IC. You could be a more powerful Knight than Master, and it just limits your ability to post in certain threads that can only be for "experienced and veteran" characters bearing Knight.

When you see "Padawan" rank on a title, you automatically feel either they're too new and lower ranked to be worth your time IC or they don't have much experience to be taken seriously IC.

NOTHING OOC related either I have to say.

 

[Jsc]

[member="Connor Harrison"]

Thanks man. I owe you one. Also, great answers. Thanks!

 

[WolfMortum]

Right, I'm going to bring in another post here but only because of my opinion on training that eventually leads to knighthood or a rank of the same value (dependent upon force alignments). I will need to make it clear that my experience doesn't come from another forum per'say but rather a game called Jedi knight: Jedi Academy.

This was a game that focused obviously on being a Jedi but it was the multi-player that captivated me and a particular clan called ::JEDI:: that every new member started out as a hopeful (guest), soon to be initiated and rise from initiate to the rank of Jedi Master and those specially to the rank of Council. It took me three to four years to reach the rank of Jedi Knight and the Role-play shown in a game while not to the expectations of a site like this, was still very incredibly gifted.

All the above has nothing to do with Chaos, obviously.

But when people begin to question the necessity of training it blows my mind a fair bit. If it weren't for the first two of my characters already climbing that long and arduous road, I would never have tried to become a Jedi Knight right off like this character has. The advantages of playing a student are so much more enjoyable, for the share fact that to begin with you're paired with someone that's going to lead your character through weeks of role-play's, story-lines, missions and adventures that will offer so much character development that on your own, is so much more difficult to gain.

If not for eventually finding a student that will put in the same effort you're prepared to take in their training, I honestly don't think there's a great deal of merit in the above ranks aside from personal value. And yes, as far as the rank of Jedi Master goes, that should be extremely difficult to gain as mastery over something like the force that even the Jedi and the Sith do not hold full understanding over, should be rare and incredibly valuable to both sides of the coin. The Rank of Master was given to those who managed extra-ordinary feats such as surviving wars with great effort towards either one side and doing what either alignment stood for in the most valued ways.

 

[Mara D'Lessio Merrill]

I'm against it, but not for the usual reasons. People need short- and intermediate-term goals. People get a lot of satisfaction out of achieving them. Achieving Knight after a few weeks of work can cement interest and engagement in the community and the character's faction, in any number of ways.

 

[Jsc]

But when people begin to question the necessity of training it blows my mind a fair bit.

No one is questioning the necessity. As, It is already completely unnecessary. Training Threads are not required for Rank Advancement in this community.

I'd also like to point out three other things. 1. that more Knights, means more teachers, and thusly more opportunities to find training threads. 2. That allowing players to do something is not the same as forcing them to. In fact, I would stress once again that anybody who finds playing a Padawan enjoyable... Will still be able to play a Padawan. Now, with more mentors and opportunities to do so than ever. And 3. Difficulty in RP is merited by your own ability and skill as a writer. Not the vote or the consensus of the majority. For like many things in life, there is no accounting for taste.

100% pros. 0% cons.

People need short- and intermediate-term goals.

No, they don't. They don't need anything. Now... Want, demand, and believe in? Sure. This is a fantasy board after all.

But your reply pleases me because you mention favoring interest and engagement. Something of which I believe this idea favors greatly. Creating Interest and engagement by allowed players the ability to start at Knight Rank.

I just think you're applying it incorrectly. Lol. Great reply!

 

[Darth Ferus]

[member="Mara D'Lessio Merrill"]

I'll offer a counter.

A NFU has never needed rank goals such as those titles to become invested and interested in their character/faction, and they can start as anything. Common soldier to the high general. If you want to, you do. I've never noticed it affecting how much someone RPs a character.

When I started here and did the acolyte thing I sucked at it, and found the writing insanely difficult to be interested in. Once I got to knight, I did what I like to do. Train. And did lots of it. I personally enjoy training other people.

Also some people just dont have the time to put in on making their ideal character. Some come to the board with a logical character in mind of knight rank, only to be told they have to start out at acolyte. That sometimes puts a damper on how they wanted to write, and now have to do a bunch of threads they didn't expect that eats up what little free time they have to get their character to what they wanted in the first place.

I say go for it. If there are problems with abuse, this really wont change anything. Those problems will always be there, whether there's a choice of knight v acolyte or not.

 

[Curupira Hawk]

A NFU has never needed rank goals such as those titles to become invested and interested in their character/faction, and they can start as anything. Common soldier to the high general. If you want to, you do. I've never noticed it affecting how much someone RPs a character.

Actually, that's something that's unique to Chaos. NFU's usually go through Trainee-Adept-Elite. Have for years. I've had character go through these ranks. Their training may be more specialized (eg my navy character went through simulations and had an instructor and everything). But even if you don't assign OOC ranks as Chaos doesn't, IC ranks make it certainly worth while for them. It can be quite fun rising through the ranks.

 

[Tefka]

Jay's Pros & Cons

• + More Teachers
• + More Leadership Opportunities
• + Less Padawans needing Masters
• + Stronger Opponents
• + Less Training Threads
• + Older Characters
• + More PvP Deaths
• + Less paperwork for FAs, RPJs, and Admins

• - More Force Users
• - Stronger risk of God-awans & Baby Knights
• - Less IC development per FU character
• - More Anti-FU tech demand
• - Easier to get Master Rank

I seriously don't care about any of these, because none of them address the actual reason I created our rules for ranking up. I don't *really* care about personal milestones and I don't care about less paperwork for RPJs (you're aware RPJs have very little input on the process from Padawn to Knight, right? They only vote on Masterhood.).

You have 'More Teachers' as a positive. I do not see this being realistic. Granting people Knighthood doesn't make them any more knowledgeable.

You have 'Less Training Threads' as a positive. I do not see this as a positive.

You have 'Less Need For Masters' as a positive. I do not see this as a positive.

Less interaction with the community, less role-playing. That's not a bonus. The rules exist to progress because that's what a player wants, but what I want is more community interaction. Mix it up with the factions and you've got everyone organizing to churn out their force users promotions.

Which means meeting new people, role-playing more threads, more community interaction. It means Factions that *want* to escalate your Force Rank because it helps them grow as a faction, which means people helping you.

This forum doesn't work without interaction. Your proposal limits that.

 

[Darth Prazutis]

[member="Tefka"]

I agree personally and I believe also the system in place definitely does its job. The whole point of needing a master or FA is because your reliant on other people to get your promotion and doing so as you said mixes the community together. You find your masters, get situated in a faction or group and work up the ranks together in factions events, RP's, site events, dominions and invasions. Plus starting from the top of the mountain, or even halfway up there is no fun. Start from the very bottom of the mountain, rock bottom and work your way up is all the more satisfying.

 

[I_Am_The_Walrus]

Q1: What are some of the good things that can come from imagining such a change?
I'm not sure, perhaps less of an MMORPG feel of leveling up.
Q2: What are some of the bad things that can come too?
As Jay said, too many 12 year old Knights and 22 year old Masters. I don't know why people are almost 'afraid?' of making a 35-50+ Master or a 25+ year old Knight. *Shrug* It's kind of, I don't know, unrealistic. Okay, wrong word, but you know what I mean, right.
Q3: And most importantly, what does Rank mean to you really in May 2016?
Not much. I guess it gives a guideline of how powerful a Jedi or Sith would be. But you have superpowered apprentices standing toe-to-toe with seasoned Masters. In no continuity I've ever read would that be conceivable whether Star Wars or another canon.

An apprentice seems to be about finding yourself in character and progressing. A Knight is kind of like a shodan in Japanese martial arts. You've mastered the basics but you haven't mastered the art, in fact, it's like you're starting again. A master is thought of as 5th degree and up, and it's not really about ability (power). It's control and experience, being a teacher and having an understanding of the underlying principles.

 

[Senji Selah]

31 and still a padawan. The struggle is real.

 

[Darth Assimilus]

My old Character Kezeroth was 2503 years old and padawan. Took him a month to reach knight [member="Senji Selah"]

 

[Tefka]

You won't get rid of Padawans. Knights would just be the new Padawans.

If you don't like the system, write NFUs. They're way cooler anyways.